From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Debora123]

…They are done between a validly married heterosexual couple, and not between homosexuals.

Likewise, someone could use this same logic and say “intercourse between unmarried people is the same act as intercourse between unmarried people, therefore there is no difference and the act is immoral.”

Yet there IS a difference. One is between a married couple, the other is not.

Same answer as above.

Grrrrrrr, typo!

EDIT:

Likewise, someone could use this same logic and say “intercourse between unmarried people is the same act as intercourse between married people, therefore there is no difference and the act is immoral.”

 

[Debora123]

No I don’t. This argument does not follow at all. And I’m sorry, but it is a fact of biology that pleasure in sex facilitates emotional and unifying bonds. I’m not sure why you’re even fighting that point.

This is true. Oxytocin is released in huge amounts specifically during female orgasm and it is known to be the bonding hormone. It is a very emotional thing for a woman.

 

[Nate13]

This is true. Oxytocin is released in huge amounts specifically during female orgasm and it is known to be the bonding hormone. It is a very emotional thing for a woman.

What happens if a woman can’t orgasm? Like I said, that woman isn’t capable of achieving the same unitive bond that a woman who can orgasm is by your definition. If this is what is supposed to hold a marriage together it doesn’t sound like such a great plan considering 50% of women struggle to have orgasms during normal intercourse. I understand what your saying and not denying that there is a chemical bond brought upon by chemicals/hormones as you described. You seem to assume that this is the unitive bond that the Church speaks of though and I’m telling you the bond the Church is referring to is so much more than what you believe it to be and works on the spiritual level. This chemical bond you talk about is a gross understatement of the Truth and is probably the root of why we seem to be on opposite sides in this discussion.

 

[Nate13]

Does anyone have a link that would help give insight into what the Church actually means when it says unitive so we can hear it from the Church’s own mouth? Not everyone has great luck reading Love and Responsibility or the Theology of the Body which are good sources if anyone wants to figure out what the Church means by “unitive” however they both definitely take some work to read.

 

[Blacksword]

What happens if a woman can’t orgasm? Like I said, that woman isn’t capable of achieving the same unitive bond that a woman who can orgasm is by your definition. If this is what is supposed to hold a marriage together it doesn’t sound like such a great plan considering 50% of women struggle to have orgasms during normal intercourse. I understand what your saying and not denying that there is a chemical bond brought upon by chemicals/hormones as you described. You seem to assume that this is the unitive bond that the Church speaks of though and I’m telling you the bond the Church is referring to is so much more than what you believe it to be and works on the spiritual level. This chemical bond you talk about is a gross understatement of the Truth and is probably the root of why we seem to be on opposite sides in this discussion.

Except no one has ever said that pleasure was the whole of the unitive bond. It is a not insignificant part of the unitive bonding that sex brings about, but not all there is in the bond. Too much hay from the straw men going down in here!

 

[Calliso]

If Church Fathers taught sex was only for the ‘generation of offspring’ then they would’ve considered sex off limits for pregnant and menopausal women and their husbands, right?

St. Augustine did condemn an early form of periodic continence for avoiding pregnancy. This condemnation was directed toward the Manichaeans, a sect that considered matter, and by extention the creation of new people, inherently evil. So he did know about NFP (sort of) and he *only *condemned it in a way modern Catholicism would too.

Interesting though it wouldn;t surprise me if they would have frowned on menopausal and pregant women having intercourse. Of course then again they may have “allowed it” solely for the purpose of fulfilling the marital debt certainly not for pleasure or uniative purposes or at least I seriously doubt!

 

[Calliso]

I didn’t say pleasure was the reason for having sex, so yes, you misunderstand. I sai the pleasure you derive from it is part and parcel, that is, a critical factor in, the unity that sex creates. The pleasure drives the biological, hormonal, and resulting neurological bonding mechanisms and effects of sex. You know, facts about human sexuality and biology that we know now that the early fathers in no way had any access to.

And secondly, it’s interesting you readily agree with me that loveless baby-making sex is then morally the same level of grave sin that you say ABC is, since this is EXACTLY the kind of sex that many MANY people are experiencing in the drive to conceive a child, plenty of then Catholic and, I’m sure, unaware of this grave evil they are committing. I wonder why no papal pronouncements, homilies, or sweeping drives against loveless baby-making sex???

And it’s also interesting that in this example you assume it’s the MAN using the woman, objectifying her, and treating sex in this poor fashion. Often in this situation it’s the other way around you know…plenty of men have been made to feel like they’re nothing but sperm donors, and essentially unwanted once the bun is in the oven! That assumption speaks volumes.

Yeah there is another board I visit sometimes and quite often I have heard complaints from men with refusing wives who were only really interested in sex when it came to making babies and how used they felt from that. So yeah its not just a matter of men using women!

 

[Calliso]

Ok a post more on topic! I admit I canlt really answer the question exactly. I have never used NFP. The closest I have come I guess is intercourse with no pill or condom and that was certainly very nice. Though to be honest donlt think I have enough frame of reference to really make a comparison between the two. I know the pill messed up things sexually for me and condoms kinda suck for us. But without having used NFP I can;t actually say right now whether it would actually be better. Sure it might physically feel better but emotionally? Or would I be too stressed out about a possible pregnancy? I donlt know. But yeah there is my attempt at answering the original question!

 

[Nate13]

Except no one has ever said that pleasure was the whole of the unitive bond. It is a not insignificant part of the unitive bonding that sex brings about, but not all there is in the bond. Too much hay from the straw men going down in here!

Hmm alright then explain to me what you see in the word unitive and how to fully embrace it if I’m so far off track. We have defined procreative in threads so many times its bordering on ridiculous but never once have I seen a breakdown of what unitive means. How is one to understand the Church’s teaching unless you know what they mean by unitive haha? I’d also like to add that “chemical bond” just sounds like another way to say pleasure especially since pleasure is just a mix of chemicals as well Also wouldn’t Gal 5:16-26 condemn this? The “unitive bond” can’t by reliant on the seeking of pleasure since that would seem to go directly against scripture right?

Galatians 5:16-26

New International Version (NIV)

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[a] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

 

[Bookcat]

catholiceducation.org/articles/marriage/mf0013.html

 

[Corki]

Does anyone have a link that would help give insight into what the Church actually means when it says unitive so we can hear it from the Church’s own mouth? Not everyone has great luck reading Love and Responsibility or the Theology of the Body which are good sources if anyone wants to figure out what the Church means by “unitive” however they both definitely take some work to read.

I would start with Casti Canubii. The language is less academic than L&R and it’s not nearly as long as TOB. It is a very beautiful letter on married love and sex.

 

[Nate13]

I would start with Casti Canubii. The language is less academic than L&R and it’s not nearly as long as TOB. It is a very beautiful letter on married love and sex.

Yeah I’d love for someone to find my an offical Church document that describes the unitive aspect of marriage to be the when a woman releases Oxytocin and the couple gets all the cuddling feelings haha. I will offer up the same deal as Pawlenty though and I’ll either cook you dinner or come mow your lawn (limit of one acre ) to whoever can.

Casti Canubii is a good resource though

 

[Debora123]

What happens if a woman can’t orgasm? Like I said, that woman isn’t capable of achieving the same unitive bond that a woman who can orgasm is by your definition. If this is what is supposed to hold a marriage together it doesn’t sound like such a great plan considering 50% of women struggle to have orgasms during normal intercourse. I understand what your saying and not denying that there is a chemical bond brought upon by chemicals/hormones as you described. You seem to assume that this is the unitive bond that the Church speaks of though and I’m telling you the bond the Church is referring to is so much more than what you believe it to be and works on the spiritual level. This chemical bond you talk about is a gross understatement of the Truth and is probably the root of why we seem to be on opposite sides in this discussion.

Whoa… you’re taking what I said and twisting it up to a whole different level. I never said it was completely necessary to hold a marriage together, neither did I say it was the only bond present. You are putting all these words in my mouth when all I insinuated was that having an orgasm is important and plays a role in the emotional bond.

So yes, having a healthy/satisfying sex life IS very important in a marriage - especially in a young marriage.

---

Most women cannot orgasm during intercourse. It usually takes manual or oral stimulation.

 

[Debora123]

Except no one has ever said that pleasure was the whole of the unitive bond. It is a not insignificant part of the unitive bonding that sex brings about, but not all there is in the bond. Too much hay from the straw men going down in here!

Yes.

 

[Debora123]

Yeah I’d love for someone to find my an offical Church document that describes the unitive aspect of marriage to be the when a woman releases Oxytocin and the couple gets all the cuddling feelings haha. I will offer up the same deal as Pawlenty though and I’ll either cook you dinner or come mow your lawn (limit of one acre ) to whoever can.

Casti Canubii is a good resource though

Once again, no one said this. You are twisting up our words into extremes, and it’s extremely frustrating/annoying.

 

[Bookcat]

A contraceptive sex life is a very unhealthy sex life.

It is objectively contrary to the meaning of the act…contrary to the marriage…contrary to the love that should be growing in that young married life.

 

[Nate13]

Once again, no one said this. You are twisting up our words into extremes, and it’s extremely frustrating/annoying.

Actually you did. And yes I understand you see it to be more than just the release of Oxytocin. But my point is that the release of Oxytocin has NOTHING to do with what the Church means by unitive. That “chemical bond” would once again just be the motivation behind the act not the purpose. I’m sorry if my last post was a little sarcastic by the way Here is a quote from a link that bookcat sent me that further reiterates a lot of what I have described the unitive aspect of marriage to be.

A definition of the unitive and procreative elements of marriage will help demonstrate the salvific power of marriage and the indissoluble relationship between the unitive and procreative aspects of the marital act. The unitive aspect of marriage can be understood as the mutual and total self-giving of spouses to each others salvation. The procreative aspect is the participation of the spouses in the creation of new life. The mutual commitment to salvation that characterizes the unitive aspect overflows to another person: the child. Love, by its nature grows; it never suppresses a good. Love is complete giving. Because it delights in the good of another, it is generous and unreserved.

The marital act is the visible sign of this overflowing of love. It visibly encapsulates the union between spouses and its life-giving power. Just as marriage integrates unitive and procreative, so must the physical expression of spousal communion. To separate the unitive from the procreative in the marital act is to disintegrate it and to frustrate Gods plan for marriage.

Marriage is designed to give life, not to turn inward on itself. The grace of God that exists in the love of spouses is meant to overflow to the world. God gives life and love abundantly and expects us to do the same. This is why Christ established marriage as a sacrament that signifies His own fecund relationship with the Church:

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the Church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the Church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So also husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the Church, because we are members of his body.

For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the Church. In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband (Eph 5:25-33).

Christ espouses His Church, our mother, and in this covenant there is a mutual outpouring of self in which nothing is held back, even to the point of giving ones own life. The communion that exists between Christ and His Bride brings forth new lifespiritual children who deepen the life of the Church. In the same way, marriage must be life-giving. Spouses must exhibit the same total self-gift that Christ offered, holding nothing backincluding their fertility. Christs love for His Church is never contraceptive, never self-gratifying, but exists for the very purpose of creating new life.

Consider an entity in which two people love each other so much that they exist as one, and in which the love of this union is so real and so intense that another person proceeds from it, a person who is sent out into the world to sanctify it. Sound familiar? The life-giving love of family is analogous to the inner life of God himself. Pope John Paul II writes: “God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude, but a family, since He has in Himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family which is love.”4 When we live according to this mystery we conform to the image of God; when we live counter to it we deviate from the image of God.

onemoresoul.com/downloadable-pamphlets/why-is-contraception-immoral-2.html

 

[Nate13]

[Originally Posted by Blacksword View Post
Except no one has ever said that pleasure was the whole of the unitive bond. It is a not insignificant part of the unitive bonding that sex brings about, but not all there is in the bond. Too much hay from the straw men going down in here!/QUOTE]

Debora I’m denying this statement which is something you said “Yes” too. All I’m trying to get across is that pleasure has nothing to do with the Church’s definition of unitive. It is the motivation to have sex and is sometimes an outward sign of what is really occurring but we are called to a greater purpose. We are called to crucify the desires and passions of the flesh in order that we might fully encompass the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what bonds a man and a woman together in marriage.

 

[Blacksword]

Hmm alright then explain to me what you see in the word unitive and how to fully embrace it if I’m so far off track. We have defined procreative in threads so many times its bordering on ridiculous but never once have I seen a breakdown of what unitive means. How is one to understand the Church’s teaching unless you know what they mean by unitive haha? I’d also like to add that “chemical bond” just sounds like another way to say pleasure especially since pleasure is just a mix of chemicals as well Also wouldn’t Gal 5:16-26 condemn this? The “unitive bond” can’t by reliant on the seeking of pleasure since that would seem to go directly against scripture right?

Galatians 5:16-26

New International Version (NIV)

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[a] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I would say unitive connotes the physical, emotional, and spiritual joining and closeness brought about between two people from a joining of the flesh, from sexual joining together.

The quote from Galatians is being tortured, please let it off the mat! To say that it condemns pleasure in sex is unwarranted. It’s referring to disordered and evil desires, desire for sex, in ofitself, is NOT an evil or disordered thing. Nothing could be more natural in fact.

The Galatians passage refers to not just disordered sexual desire, by the way, but any evil fleshly desire, for violence, for domination, for money and power, for food or drink, etc.

 

[Nate13]

I would say unitive connotes the physical, emotional, and spiritual joining and closeness brought about between two people from a joining of the flesh, from sexual joining together.

The quote from Galatians is being tortured, please let it off the mat! To say that it condemns pleasure in sex is unwarranted. It’s referring to disordered and evil desires, desire for sex, in ofitself, is NOT an evil or disordered thing. Nothing could be more natural in fact.

The Galatians passage refers to not just disordered sexual desire, by the way, but any evil fleshly desire, for violence, for domination, for money and power, for food or drink, etc.

Uh no I will not leave the Galatians passage alone because it encompasses this topic. Also, please understand this is not my interpretation of “unitive” it is the Church’s opinion reiterated in my own imperfect yet hopefully sufficient way. And yes I understand the passage condemns all seeking of pleasure as the purpose of life including sexual pleasure. Physical pleasure is never the purpose we do anything. Spiritual pleasure on the other hand is another thing entirely.

I would say unitive connotes the physical, emotional, and spiritual joining and closeness brought about between two people from a joining of the flesh, from sexual joining together.

Scratch out physical and emotional and you got it Not a purpose of sex… Its a motivation…