From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Good_Daughter]

And, not to be too joking, but if you struggle with lust for your husband in marriage, then I envy him! Would that more wives had this issue, especially as the marriage goes on. I daresay lust in marriage for one’s spouse is probably one of the least pressing societal issues we face…sexlessness and total loss of desire at all seem far more widespread to me…

You make me laugh, Blacksword. Why does it seem the more things like porn invade our culture, the less actual couples are having actual sex? Two sides of the same rotten coin, I guess.

 

[Nate13]

Originally Posted by Brav3N3wWorld View Post
In the case of NFP when trying to avoid pregnancy…the end is to avoid pregnancy.

Did you read what I posted earlier? The Church has no problem with a couple who mutually decides to avoid pregnancy for solid reasons. All they say is “This is the way God inherently designed the sexual act and its purpose and we should not do anything to frustrate that purpose when we participate in this act”. So yes there is a difference between using contraception and NFP in that contraception frustrates the purpose while you are participating in the act. NFP does nothing to frustrate the purpose of the act while the act is being committed. Is that clearer?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Why does the act feel better? From my experence I feel like I’m not using my wife and the act is more complete. An anology I use with prople who do contracept but are currently trying to have a child cannot not say that there is something different from the act of when you attemt to have a child vs the times you contracepted. No one can argue that there is that something there that was not before that makes the act feel more complete. Cannot quite put my finger on it. So I would like more help on possibly making this analogy better or from some of your own experiences. What make NFP better for you?

Hello,

NFP to me feels better because it’s open to God’s will and does not try to rob God of His role in the relationship. When God’s role in the relationship is diminished so is the dignity of our spouses because we are made in His image. By using NFP I’m using what God created, not man, to propose (not enforce) my will to Him. NFP allows the husband and wife to tell God that we are not ready for kids (or vice versa that they are ready since NFP can be used to increase the chance of pregnancy) but in the end His will be done and not ours. In this way I’m open to God, His wisdom, and I trust that what He provides will be best for our future. I hold no other expectation than to want what He wants for us. In this way the servant (me) does not claim to be above his Master (God).

Condoms on the other hand enforce my will upon God and in doing so they try to rob God of his role in the relationship. By doing this we not only disrespect God, our spouses and our marriages but also our children if we were to conceive due to contraceptive error. Condoms say to God: “This is what I want and I don’t care whether it’s your will or not. I know what’s best for me better than you do” while NFP says: “this is what I think I want but I know what you want is better for me so I’m open to your will” and this is why NFP is not contraception and why it is not intrinsically evil like contraceptives.
This is why NFP feels better than contraception.

Ps. I posted this a little while back which shows others why NFP cannot be viewed in the same light as contraception.

**Are all forms of birth control contraception? **

No! If they were you would have to accuse all couples that practice or have practiced abstinence (including Saint Joseph and the Virgin Mary) as using contraception. This would be ridiculous.

If the marital act is done when a woman is not ovulating is it always contraception?

No! However if you claim that NFP is contraception then this is what your either directly or indirectly stating. Which means you believe the only time a husband should have sex with his wife is when she is ovulating since any other time would be contraception. This would be ridiculous!

Can ABC’s be used to increase the chances of pregnancy?

No! NFP on the other hand can do this which is why it cannot be put on the same level as ABC’s and why its use does not give any Catholic the right to use ABC’s.
In the end Catholics that use ABC’s when they have a non-contraceptive form of birth control available like NFP are doing so because they do not want God’s will in their relationship.

God Bless

 

[Good_Daughter]

As an observation, is there any other area in Catholic teaching where the physical is absolutized?

If I understand your question correctly, how about the sacraments? They all have abolute requirements in terms of physical form. For example, crackers and grape juice would make for an invalid Eucharist, which must be in the form of bread and wine.

 

[ahs]

Hello,

NFP to me feels better because it’s open to God’s will and does not try to rob God of His role in the relationship. When God’s role in the relationship is diminished so is the dignity of our spouses because we are made in His image. By using NFP I’m using what God created, not man, to propose (not enforce) my will to Him. NFP allows the husband and wife to tell God that we are not ready for kids (or vice versa that they are ready since NFP can be used to increase the chance of pregnancy) but in the end His will be done and not ours. In this way I’m open to God, His wisdom, and I trust that what He provides will be best for our future. I hold no other expectation than to want what He wants for us. In this way the servant (me) does not claim to be above his Master (God).

Condoms on the other hand enforce my will upon God and in doing so they try to rob God of his role in the relationship. By doing this we not only disrespect God, our spouses and our marriages but also our children if we were to conceive due to contraceptive error. Condoms say to God: “This is what I want and I don’t care whether it’s your will or not. I know what’s best for me better than you do” while NFP says: “this is what I think I want but I know what you want is better for me so I’m open to your will” and this is why NFP is not contraception and why it is not intrinsically evil like contraceptives.
This is why NFP feels better than contraception.

God Bless

Excellent way to put it! NFP puts our trust in God’s hands, while contraception takes God out of the picture entirely.

 

[Blacksword]

I realized that oral sex to completion between a heterosexual couple (married or not) is physically identical to oral sex to completion between a homosexual couple. I never said either was right or wrong, just noted that neither act requires the male/female compliment.

I do accept the Catholic teaching that homosexual acts are ‘intrinsically disordered’. If an act is intrinsically disordered, how does changing the context (ie. who is doing it) make it okay? (Of course, if you disagree with Catholic teaching on the nature of homosexual acts, our dialogue may have nowhere to go.)

Who wants their teeth done by the Marquis de Sade? (Sorry, I couldn’t resist.)

Yes but the fact that it can be done by either gender arrangement is of no consequence. There’s no “there” there in that fact, it doesn’t lead you to any moral conclusions without adding in assumptions you’re trying to prove.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Yes but the fact that it can be done by either gender arrangement is of no consequence. There’s no “there” there in that fact, it doesn’t lead you to any moral conclusions without adding in assumptions you’re trying to prove.

Sorry, I’m not following your post, especially what’s in bold. Would you mind restating what you’ve posted? I’d like to get your meaning.

 

[Warrior1979]

@Warrior

I’d also like to make sure that you realize that while I’m saying pleasure should never be the reason you do something, that does not mean we are to whip ourselves every time we feel pleasure haha. Rather I can appreciate the appreciate the pleasure that motivates me to commit an action especially when the action is appropriately oriented towards a good end. Thus I’m not saying you shouldn’t get pleasure from sex, but rather it should not be seen as the ends to a sexual act.

In nature, pleasure is the means and the end from the perspective of all species. If it wasn’t, propogation of the species would not occur. It is only because we were gifted with a higher intelligence can we see and analyze the other ends involved in the sex act. Pleasure is intrinsically link with sex; the attempt to separate it from the sex act in any way, shape, or form is to deny the natural order of things that God has created.

From your past statements it seems to me that you have a healthy respect for the pleasure of the sexual act and don’t way overemphasize its importance within sex. However, you do allow the importance you do give to pleasure in sex to have an impact in your decisions which is why you use contraception instead of NFP. NFP requires you to deny yourself part of what you see as the unitive bond, so its no wonder you don’t want to use it.

Be careful with those assumptions. Do you remember what the Bad News Bears said about “assume?”

The only time I used contraception for the purposes of contracepting was way back when with my first girlfriend. My first wife was on the pill, but that had to do with regulating her periods, which were so bad she would faint from blood loss. My second wife (legally married in the Catholic Church, if it matters) and I do not contracept nor use NFP. We simply do what nature intended, whenever we want.

This whole issue only concerns me in how it affects others and their relationship with the Church. Sex issues (within marriage) are one of the biggest issues that causes people to separate from the Church. Marriage is the other (which is my issue…annulment and convalidation left a bad taste in my mouth).

 

[Warrior1979]

I also add, since it relates to the OP, the best sex anyone can ever have is when done “unprotected” and with absolutely no “fear” of having children. Sorry to say it, but if I really couldn’t have children and had to practice NFP, I’d probably have to jump out a window (it’s only one story, so it really wouldn’t matter ).

 

[Good_Daughter]

I also add, since it relates to the OP, the best sex anyone can ever have is when done “unprotected” and with absolutely no “fear” of having children. Sorry to say it, but if I really couldn’t have children and had to practice NFP, I’d probably have to jump out a window (it’s only one story, so it really wouldn’t matter ).

Warrior, ‘hilarious’ is not usually how I think of you, but you’re on a comic roll tonight.

No birth control, you say? I bet many couples would envy you for that!

 

[Warrior1979]

Warrior, ‘hilarious’ is not usually how I think of you, but you’re on a comic roll tonight.

The boring, dry side of me rears its ugly head when discussing logic or technical issues.

No birth control, you say? I bet many couples would envy you for that!

To make a really long story short, my first wife refused to have children. When I got remarried, because of my wife’s age (which started with a 4), we put the effort to have children in fifth gear right out of the starting blocks. It didn’t happen, and we ended up adopting…best thing we ever did, BTW. We’ve never even considered using birth control of any sort.

 

[Nate13]

In nature, pleasure is the means and the end from the perspective of all species. If it wasn’t, propogation of the species would not occur. It is only because we were gifted with a higher intelligence can we see and analyze the other ends involved in the sex act. Pleasure is intrinsically link with sex; the attempt to separate it from the sex act in any way, shape, or form is to deny the natural order of things that God has created.

Be careful with those assumptions. Do you remember what the Bad News Bears said about “assume?”

The only time I used contraception for the purposes of contracepting was way back when with my first girlfriend. My first wife was on the pill, but that had to do with regulating her periods, which were so bad she would faint from blood loss. My second wife (legally married in the Catholic Church, if it matters) and I do not contracept nor use NFP. We simply do what nature intended, whenever we want.

This whole issue only concerns me in how it affects others and their relationship with the Church. Sex issues (within marriage) are one of the biggest issues that causes people to separate from the Church. Marriage is the other (which is my issue…annulment and convalidation left a bad taste in my mouth).

Read my more recent posts. I stepped away from that position because as you pointed out I over assumed and got in trouble I’ve still yet to see a comment on some of my most recent posts and whether I’m making any sense though haha.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

In nature, pleasure is the means and the end from the perspective of all species. If it wasn’t, propogation of the species would not occur. It is only because we were gifted with a higher intelligence can we see and analyze the other ends involved in the sex act. Pleasure is intrinsically link with sex; the attempt to separate it from the sex act in any way, shape, or form is to deny the natural order of things that God has created.

Be careful with those assumptions. Do you remember what the Bad News Bears said about “assume?”

The only time I used contraception for the purposes of contracepting was way back when with my first girlfriend. My first wife was on the pill, but that had to do with regulating her periods, which were so bad she would faint from blood loss. My second wife (legally married in the Catholic Church, if it matters) and I do not contracept nor use NFP. We simply do what nature intended, whenever we want.

This whole issue only concerns me in how it affects others and their relationship with the Church. Sex issues (within marriage) are one of the biggest issues that causes people to separate from the Church. Marriage is the other (which is my issue…annulment and convalidation left a bad taste in my mouth).

Small comment. That makes me reflect on our own situation. I would actually not mind living like that at all, no abc-no nfp.

We’ve been very conservative with NFP. Sometimes it makes me feel sad, because when we did abandon NFP we ended up having two back to back miscarriages. Then after that we had a baby. I faced a pregnancy with bed rest for days at a time, monitoring the placenta, spotting, gestational diabetes, finally premature labor and delivery, with a little baby in the NICU for 2 months. He faced jaundice, sepsis, blood transfusions, intubations, bradycardias, spinal tap and other things…

I just don’t trust my body enough to say that if we conceive, the baby will live, and grow and be born full term and healthy. So at least we get to be with each other some times with NFP.

 

[Blacksword]

Sorry, I’m not following your post, especially what’s in bold. Would you mind restating what you’ve posted? I’d like to get your meaning.

There’s no substance to the mere fact that oral sex CAN be done by a couple of either gender configuration. That fact alone doesn’t demonstrate anything in terns of the permissibility of the act. That’s what I mean by: there’s no “there” there. In order to go the conclusion you seem to want, i.e. that it is immoral to have oral sex, you need to in some way then add in the very immorality of oral sex as a premise that you are trying to prove as the conclusion. This is what assuming the consequent, the logical fallacy, means. I’m not sure how much clearer it can be explained…You point out the obvious fact that either a hetero or homosexual couple can engage in oral sex. So what? Both can eat ice cream together too, that doesn’t demonstrate the immorality of eating ice cream, on it’s own. This fact alone doesn’t prove anything. I hope that makes it clearer.

 

[Warrior1979]

Small comment. That makes me reflect on our own situation. I would actually not mind living like that at all, no abc-no nfp.

That will happen some day (post menopause). It can just be tough in the meantime.

 

[Good_Daughter]

The boring, dry side of me rears its ugly head when discussing logic or technical issues.

There’s no such thing as a boring, dry Warrior. Fiercely challenging is more like it.

To make a really long story short, my first wife refused to have children. When I got remarried, because of my wife’s age (which started with a 4), we put the effort to have children in fifth gear right out of the starting blocks. It didn’t happen, and we ended up adopting…best thing we ever did, BTW. We’ve never even considered using birth control of any sort.

So you have a fair bit of real life experience from different angles of the birth control issue. Very interesting.

It’s great to hear something positive regarding adoption. Not that it’s the same thing, but foster parenting is a dream of mine. Hopefully, someday…

 

[Good_Daughter]

Small comment. That makes me reflect on our own situation. I would actually not mind living like that at all, no abc-no nfp.

We’ve been very conservative with NFP. Sometimes it makes me feel sad, because when we did abandon NFP we ended up having two back to back miscarriages. Then after that we had a baby. I faced a pregnancy with bed rest for days at a time, monitoring the placenta, spotting, gestational diabetes, finally premature labor and delivery, with a little baby in the NICU for 2 months. He faced jaundice, sepsis, blood transfusions, intubations, bradycardias, spinal tap and other things…

I just don’t trust my body enough to say that if we conceive, the baby will live, and grow and be born full term and healthy. So at least we get to be with each other some times with NFP.

I don’t think I could imagine what it woud be like going through all of that, Mary Gail. I whine about pregnancy nausea and get frazzled by my babies spitting up! I think those experiences come through in your posts as compassion.

People often make the mistake that Catholicism permits NFP because it is ‘natural’. The truth is many things that are natural can harm or even kill us. We all know what Warrior 1979 means when he says he and his wife ‘do what nature intended’ but it’s still important that we don’t automatically use the term ‘natural’ as a synonym for ‘better’.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I don’t think I could imagine what it woud be like going through all of that, Mary Gail. I whine about pregnancy nausea and get frazzled by my babies spitting up! I think those experiences come through in your posts as compassion.

People often make the mistake that Catholicism permits NFP because it is ‘natural’. The truth is many things that are natural can harm or even kill us. We all know what Warrior 1979 means when he says he and his wife ‘do what nature intended’ but it’s still important that we don’t automatically use the term ‘natural’ as a synonym for ‘better’.

It was hard. But we dealt with it one day at a time.

He is a sweet, sweet baby. I wish he didn’t have to face the suffering he did, and I often wonder if his suffering had merit. I hope it did.

He seemed so brave during his ordeal.