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rebeccanew
Guest
When a priest consecrates the communion wafer, the Real Presence of Jesus present. The priest can be a scoundrel-it does not negate the Real Presence. the Holy Spirit is doing the enlightenment of our minds and hearts. We must not judge, but have faith that these scandals will pass and make the Roman Catholic Church stronger and better. I know I am a sinner, no matter how I try I fall short of the glory of God- but accept His mercy with all my heart and soul. Pray for the faithful clergy that follow His will. All I thought of was the statement Jesus made about what happened to people who harm the children-they will wish they had never been born.
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dixieagle
Guest
Yes, my husband, a journalist who has had to deal with more than one story involving abuse by priests in our diocese, and I watched it carefully. (The name of the piece was “Secrets of the Vatican” which - although I found the name a little “National Enquirer” - was, sadly, fairly descriptive of what was presented.)
As to the piece itself, I found it profoundly disturbing on many levels. The part that actually brought me to tears was the woman discussing her rape at the age of 8 at the hands of a trusted priest. It was simply horrific, and I am convinced that there is a particularly hot place in hell for those who perpetrate that kind of evil. The video of victims of priests enunciating their anguish to a bishop (Milwaukee, I believe?) was wrenching.
One of those interviewed, a psychiatrist, touched on the distinction between pedophiles, who prey on pre-pubescent children and are largely heterosexual, and ephebophiles, who go after adolescents, generally of the same sex, and whose abuse constitutes most of the incidents of clergy abuse.
The accounts of the “gay cabal” in and around the Vatican were shocking and eye-opening.
Based on some personal observations that I cannot detail, the allegations that the institutional church has often done everything possible to obfuscate and keep things quiet ring true, sadly. There are plenty of diocesan lawyers who will have a lot to answer for, IMHO (not to mention those bishops who let them run roughshod over victims.)
The Vatican Bank situation is simply scary, and I fear for Pope Francis, frankly.
I think I would have preferred to see Frontline concentrate on one area of concern, rather than attempt to cover abuse, gay clergy, celibacy issues (which no one seems to do well) and the Vatican Bank scandal in one take. It could seem that it was a “let’s show as much dirty laundry as we can” approach. However, we should all be most disturbed that there IS so much dirty laundry.
Something that is heartening, however, is that most of the victims in the piece seem to have been able to separate the evil that was committed from the core truths of the faith. We have met and talked with Jason Berry, one of the contributors; he is a good man and excellent journalist, who “keeps the faith” despite the awful things he has uncovered.
We (dh and I) believe strongly that “the truth shall set you free”, that light needs to shine where darkness exists, and that the secrecy and “circle the wagons” mentality must cease. There are still so many questions to ask and issues to address: How did the practice of high school seminaries contribute to the abuse? Why have, apparently, so many gay men been attracted to the priesthood over the years? How do we attack the clericalism that is at the heart of many of these issues?
We must be mindful that the evil wrought by sinful humans, even in the Church, is completely counter to the Truth to be found there, and pray that Pope Francis is successful in his efforts to do away with the secrecy, intrigue, and sense of entitlement that has existed in the Curia and elsewhere.
As to the piece itself, I found it profoundly disturbing on many levels. The part that actually brought me to tears was the woman discussing her rape at the age of 8 at the hands of a trusted priest. It was simply horrific, and I am convinced that there is a particularly hot place in hell for those who perpetrate that kind of evil. The video of victims of priests enunciating their anguish to a bishop (Milwaukee, I believe?) was wrenching.
One of those interviewed, a psychiatrist, touched on the distinction between pedophiles, who prey on pre-pubescent children and are largely heterosexual, and ephebophiles, who go after adolescents, generally of the same sex, and whose abuse constitutes most of the incidents of clergy abuse.
The accounts of the “gay cabal” in and around the Vatican were shocking and eye-opening.
Based on some personal observations that I cannot detail, the allegations that the institutional church has often done everything possible to obfuscate and keep things quiet ring true, sadly. There are plenty of diocesan lawyers who will have a lot to answer for, IMHO (not to mention those bishops who let them run roughshod over victims.)
The Vatican Bank situation is simply scary, and I fear for Pope Francis, frankly.
I think I would have preferred to see Frontline concentrate on one area of concern, rather than attempt to cover abuse, gay clergy, celibacy issues (which no one seems to do well) and the Vatican Bank scandal in one take. It could seem that it was a “let’s show as much dirty laundry as we can” approach. However, we should all be most disturbed that there IS so much dirty laundry.
Something that is heartening, however, is that most of the victims in the piece seem to have been able to separate the evil that was committed from the core truths of the faith. We have met and talked with Jason Berry, one of the contributors; he is a good man and excellent journalist, who “keeps the faith” despite the awful things he has uncovered.
We (dh and I) believe strongly that “the truth shall set you free”, that light needs to shine where darkness exists, and that the secrecy and “circle the wagons” mentality must cease. There are still so many questions to ask and issues to address: How did the practice of high school seminaries contribute to the abuse? Why have, apparently, so many gay men been attracted to the priesthood over the years? How do we attack the clericalism that is at the heart of many of these issues?
We must be mindful that the evil wrought by sinful humans, even in the Church, is completely counter to the Truth to be found there, and pray that Pope Francis is successful in his efforts to do away with the secrecy, intrigue, and sense of entitlement that has existed in the Curia and elsewhere.
B
BettyBoop416
Guest
I share your concern about the Pope. I am so afraid that he will share the same fate as John Paul I…suffer an untimely “heart attack” and then have all evidence quickly swept away before anyone can really investigate.The Vatican Bank situation is simply scary, and I fear for Pope Francis, frankly.
My husband and one of the priests at our parish are tennis buddies, and after their weekly match Father stopped by our house to watch this program with us. Father was telling us about the time he spent studying in Rome. His impression of the Vatican was that it is a cross between an administrative center and a royal court - with an undercurrent of intrigue and corruption.
In my opinion (and that’s all it is), the hierarchy of the Church is just about the most vile, corrupt organization on Earth. Like any other political system, the leaders at the highest level are skillful politicians who will use any means available to advance their position. By the time someone begins climbing up the latter at the Vatican, they have been compromised many times over. While the Church has done much good in the world, it, as an organization, is also responsible for much evil. Consequently, it’s claims of infallibility and being the keeper of The Truth have a very self-serving ring.
Pope Francis, on the other hand, seems like a very well-intentioned man. (How he ever became pope is beyond me.) I pray that he is able to clean up that snake pit in the Vatican.
meltzerboy
New member
It was a scathing report that pulled no punches concerning the child abuse scandal inside the Vatican as well as other political maneuvers. It spared no one, including Pope Emeritus Benedict and Pope John Paul. Only Pope Francis was portrayed in a positive light. Even as a non-Catholic, I found it profoundly disturbing.
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on_the_hill
Guest
Maybe it’s a good thing that the secrecy is being removed, from an off the wall perspective.
It’s one way of taking ammunition away from the Church’s critics.
By the way, I have not seen it.
It’s one way of taking ammunition away from the Church’s critics.
By the way, I have not seen it.
D
dixieagle
Guest
I agree with you about the dangers of secrecy. If you watch the Frontline piece, prepare to be disturbed.Maybe it’s a good thing that the secrecy is being removed, from an off the wall perspective.
It’s one way of taking ammunition away from the Church’s critics.
By the way, I have not seen it.
P
PhiloMed
Guest
I wanted it and while I kept looking for some unfair portrayal of the church, all I found was well-researched information that was very disturbing.
Unfortunately, I think some will use it to say “See! See how bad the Catholic Church is?!” Hopefully, the faithful will see it and say, “This is terrible and we must not allow it to continue.”
The Catholic Church and the hierarchy of the Church are not necessarily the same thing in the same way that corrupt priests still perform valid sacraments.
On my local PBS, the show immediately following the Frontline episode was a documentary on the life of Father Michael McGivney, the founder of the KofC. That was inspiring and I thoroughly enjoyed it!
Unfortunately, I think some will use it to say “See! See how bad the Catholic Church is?!” Hopefully, the faithful will see it and say, “This is terrible and we must not allow it to continue.”
The Catholic Church and the hierarchy of the Church are not necessarily the same thing in the same way that corrupt priests still perform valid sacraments.
On my local PBS, the show immediately following the Frontline episode was a documentary on the life of Father Michael McGivney, the founder of the KofC. That was inspiring and I thoroughly enjoyed it!
D
dixieagle
Guest
An excellent assessment, I think.I wanted it and while I kept looking for some unfair portrayal of the church, all I found was well-researched information that was very disturbing.
Unfortunately, I think some will use it to say “See! See how bad the Catholic Church is?!” Hopefully, the faithful will see it and say, “This is terrible and we must not allow it to continue.”
The Catholic Church and the hierarchy of the Church are not necessarily the same thing in the same way that corrupt priests still perform valid sacraments.
On my local PBS, the show immediately following the Frontline episode was a documentary on the life of Father Michael McGivney, the founder of the KofC. That was inspiring and I thoroughly enjoyed it!
I believe that it was on the Frontline webpage where I read that most of the victims of abuse, and those shocked and scandalized by behavior they had encountered, are still practicing the Catholic faith. Clearly, they were able to distinguish between Christ’s church and members of that Church whose actions are outrageous and opposed to everything Christ taught.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
i am not sure if this is the same program i saw. Pope Benedict XVI was still Pope and was shown in the program. it showed some of his living quarters and gave a tour of the Vatican.
i think it was on the history channel or national geographic. anyhow, it was a good show, but i don’t remember anything about the priest sex abuse scandal in it, but it might have been 3 years or more that i saw it.
i think it was on the history channel or national geographic. anyhow, it was a good show, but i don’t remember anything about the priest sex abuse scandal in it, but it might have been 3 years or more that i saw it.
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PhiloMed
Guest
I didn’t know this, but as I was watching the show I was wondering if any of those people were still practicing Catholics.An excellent assessment, I think.
I believe that it was on the Frontline webpage where I read that most of the victims of abuse, and those shocked and scandalized by behavior they had encountered, are still practicing the Catholic faith. Clearly, they were able to distinguish between Christ’s church and members of that Church whose actions are outrageous and opposed to everything Christ taught.
I think we can only hope to have faith this strong. To be hurt so badly by someone from the Church, be treated badly when the abuse was exposed, and to remain faithful- I’m not sure I could do it.
There was one particular scene where the women was describing her rape by the priest in the church and the camera was showing statues of Jesus and Mary with such sad (almost tearful) faces. This brought me to tears both for the child’s pain as well as for the betrayal Christ must have felt. Yes, I’m sure tears were shed even by Him along side this child.
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Michaeljc4
Guest
I wonder if anyone watched Frontline’s documentary on PBS, Secrets of the Vatican. There wasn’t much in it that I didn’t already know, but it was quite…interesting to see it all put together in one narrative. Curious about people’s reactions.
In al things charity, my friends. Be nice.
In al things charity, my friends. Be nice.
2
27lw
Guest
I thought there were some disturbing things, of course, however, there were opinions thrown in like they were gospel. I liked all the creepy music during scandalous parts, and the happy music during Francis’ tenure. I heard a very good discussion of it on Al Kresta’s show (Catholic radio), and he brought up the point that they didn’t discuss any of the reforms that have already been enacted in the past 15 years.
So, overall, mixed bag, sensationalist yet with some truths. I thought they spent a lot of time on strange things, like the Italian former priest, etc.
So, overall, mixed bag, sensationalist yet with some truths. I thought they spent a lot of time on strange things, like the Italian former priest, etc.
M
marywarfield
Guest
The abuse scandal- that is not news. Having spent
years in Stockton Diocese I didn’t find anything
enlightening in Frontline’s discussion of sexual abuse.
Obviously it is known, out in the open, and being worked
on.
What I found most alarming was the Vatican Bank issues
and the quick allusion not elaborated on concerning
money in the narcotics trade. That could very well
be the next huge scandal I’m afraid because no one
really knows or wants to discuss it. And that will
be extremely dangerous ground for Pope Francis.
We must have recourse to the Holy Virgin at
all times now- much prayer for the safety of our
new Pope.
So Frontline? I think they did a great job. We need
to know all of this.
Does it change the faith at all? No.
years in Stockton Diocese I didn’t find anything
enlightening in Frontline’s discussion of sexual abuse.
Obviously it is known, out in the open, and being worked
on.
What I found most alarming was the Vatican Bank issues
and the quick allusion not elaborated on concerning
money in the narcotics trade. That could very well
be the next huge scandal I’m afraid because no one
really knows or wants to discuss it. And that will
be extremely dangerous ground for Pope Francis.
We must have recourse to the Holy Virgin at
all times now- much prayer for the safety of our
new Pope.
So Frontline? I think they did a great job. We need
to know all of this.
Does it change the faith at all? No.
M
Michaeljc4
Guest
It is not surprising that a large organization becomes corrupt. Look at the United States Government, or the United Nations, or the City of Chicago (or any large city). When you have an organization that takes in a lot of money and isn’t forced by the market to be competitive, you get corruption. Don’t get me wrong: I am not implying that Vatican should become for profit! I’m simply saying there is no market-based accountability (stock prices, stock holders, quarterly profits, etc.)
What’s especially heartbreaking about the Vatican is that there is not spiritual accountability. All of these men–competitive, smart, even ruthless–are jockeying for position, power, and influence in this massive bureaucratic structure. Maybe it’s always been this way, but we’ve never been in a world where information about the Vatican’s dirty laundry has been globally disseminated so quickly by the media.
I am far from an expert on Vatican politics. I pray for Pope Francis. I refuse to send any money to the Vatican. Maybe it should become a requirement that, in order to be considered as bishop, you have to do a five year ‘hard ship’ duty in the slums of Calcutta, or in a leper colony, or some difficult, exacting place where the whole “Prince of the Church” thing can get rubbed off by contact with God’s anawim.
One final thought. As in dioceses, I am willing to bet that the majority of people working in the Vatican are good and decent. It’s just that the bad guys get all the publicity. No one ever does news stories on nice people doing nice things. My aunt says that if at least half people in the world weren’t good, it would have all ended a long time ago. Let’s try and help the good people.
What’s especially heartbreaking about the Vatican is that there is not spiritual accountability. All of these men–competitive, smart, even ruthless–are jockeying for position, power, and influence in this massive bureaucratic structure. Maybe it’s always been this way, but we’ve never been in a world where information about the Vatican’s dirty laundry has been globally disseminated so quickly by the media.
I am far from an expert on Vatican politics. I pray for Pope Francis. I refuse to send any money to the Vatican. Maybe it should become a requirement that, in order to be considered as bishop, you have to do a five year ‘hard ship’ duty in the slums of Calcutta, or in a leper colony, or some difficult, exacting place where the whole “Prince of the Church” thing can get rubbed off by contact with God’s anawim.
One final thought. As in dioceses, I am willing to bet that the majority of people working in the Vatican are good and decent. It’s just that the bad guys get all the publicity. No one ever does news stories on nice people doing nice things. My aunt says that if at least half people in the world weren’t good, it would have all ended a long time ago. Let’s try and help the good people.
M
Miserissima
Guest
Michaeljc4, I love your hardship duty idea. That way, instead of saying, “I brought in x dollars to my diocese,” the boast would be, “You were in with the Hmong? Let me tell you, I did my time in Columbia, getting shot at by the cartels. Man, you ain’t prayed so much 'till you’ve dodged bullets on your way to to giving the last rights at three a.m. Tiger was this time…”
What far reaching solidarity a mission would bring. Christian Soldiers, indeed.
What far reaching solidarity a mission would bring. Christian Soldiers, indeed.
R
RosyAnne
Guest
One thing to keep in mind, always, is that no matter what scandal surfaces about some men and women involved in our Church…Jesus is in charge. He knows what He’s doing. Think of Him fast asleep on the boat and the waves are choppy and dangerous and everyone in the boat is TERRIFIED. We’re about to be overwhelmed by crashing waves and we’re all gonna drown!!! Nope. At a word all the chaos dissipates and He turns to look at us and asks why we, of all people, get so shaken and have so little faith? You know better. You know He’s in charge. You know what He can do. We’ll be ok. He knows what He’s doing. This is HIS Church.
Sometimes this analogy is helpful to ponder when things get particularly nasty: A boil festers underneath the skin and can get very, very painful. One remedy is to apply heat to bring the infection [pus] to the surface and when the time is right, the boil finally bursts to expel and drain the pus. And oh! what relief it is when this happens.
It’s gross, I know, but fits perfectly in this situation. We are in the midst of bringing all the pus to the surface and once the “burst” happens, the relieving expulsion of the infection will be oh so healing and full of relief.
One more note: Please consider praying for your priests and your bishop, and of course our Holy Father the pope. Not just mindlessly and out of obligation, but get yourself to a place of love and fidelity for each of them, even if they irritate you or aren’t as “traditional” or too “liberal” for your tastes. Ask our Lord to protect each of them from the devil because priests are under great attack by him and his minions, constantly. Please pray for them (from the heart) daily. Without our priests, we have no sacraments and without frequent Holy Eucharist and Confession, we become weak. They need our prayers and we need our shepherds.
For our brothers and sisters who have been harmed by those in the Church:
Mother of Perpetual Help, you have been blessed and favored by God. You became not only the Mother of the Redeemer, but the Mother of the redeemed as well. We come to you today as you loving children. Watch over us and take care of us. As you held the child Jesus in your loving arms, so take us in your arms. Be a mother ready at every moment to help us. For God who is mighty has done great things for you, and his mercy is from age to age on those who love Him. Our greatest fear is that in time of temptation, we may fail to call out to you, and become lost children. Intercede for us, dear Mother, in obtaining pardon for our sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to call upon you, Mother of Perpetual Help. Amen.
Sometimes this analogy is helpful to ponder when things get particularly nasty: A boil festers underneath the skin and can get very, very painful. One remedy is to apply heat to bring the infection [pus] to the surface and when the time is right, the boil finally bursts to expel and drain the pus. And oh! what relief it is when this happens.
It’s gross, I know, but fits perfectly in this situation. We are in the midst of bringing all the pus to the surface and once the “burst” happens, the relieving expulsion of the infection will be oh so healing and full of relief.
One more note: Please consider praying for your priests and your bishop, and of course our Holy Father the pope. Not just mindlessly and out of obligation, but get yourself to a place of love and fidelity for each of them, even if they irritate you or aren’t as “traditional” or too “liberal” for your tastes. Ask our Lord to protect each of them from the devil because priests are under great attack by him and his minions, constantly. Please pray for them (from the heart) daily. Without our priests, we have no sacraments and without frequent Holy Eucharist and Confession, we become weak. They need our prayers and we need our shepherds.
For our brothers and sisters who have been harmed by those in the Church:
Mother of Perpetual Help, you have been blessed and favored by God. You became not only the Mother of the Redeemer, but the Mother of the redeemed as well. We come to you today as you loving children. Watch over us and take care of us. As you held the child Jesus in your loving arms, so take us in your arms. Be a mother ready at every moment to help us. For God who is mighty has done great things for you, and his mercy is from age to age on those who love Him. Our greatest fear is that in time of temptation, we may fail to call out to you, and become lost children. Intercede for us, dear Mother, in obtaining pardon for our sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace always to call upon you, Mother of Perpetual Help. Amen.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
I didn’t see the documentary, so I cannot really comment on its content, but are people taking the claims it puts forth at face value? I would be hesitant about that.
I came across this one review of the program via the NewAdvent homepage:
Review of “PBS Frontline: Secrets of the Vatican”
I came across this one review of the program via the NewAdvent homepage:
Review of “PBS Frontline: Secrets of the Vatican”
meltzerboy
New member
This is a fair and balanced review of the program, pointing out the truths, half-truths, falsehoods, and agenda of the report. Thanks for sharing the link.I didn’t see the documentary, so I cannot really comment on its content, but are people taking the claims it puts forth at face value? I would be hesitant about that.
I came across this one review of the program via the NewAdvent homepage:
Review of “PBS Frontline: Secrets of the Vatican”
D
dixieagle
Guest
I thought that was a very good, well crafted review. Something that jumped out at me was the use of the term “delicious opportunity” in reference to the ammunition handed to enemies of the Church on a silver platter by those who perpetrated and covered up hideous crimes against children and adolescents. We have those evildoers to thank for a large part of the gleeful criticism of “the Church” that we have had to endure for years now.I didn’t see the documentary, so I cannot really comment on its content, but are people taking the claims it puts forth at face value? I would be hesitant about that.
I came across this one review of the program via the NewAdvent homepage:
Review of “PBS Frontline: Secrets of the Vatican”
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