Frustrated over single issue pro-lifers

[mrld20]

Hi all; this is something that I find frustrating among a lot of Catholics. We are against all forms of abortion. That I can get behind and support 100%. But I have a problem with a lot of Catholics who think “pro-life” is all about dead babies.

“Pro-life” isn’t just about dead babies. It should extend to suicide, euthanasia, eugenics, capital punishment, war, life imprisonment, self-defense, and use of deadly force.

As a Catholic worker I cannot honestly believe that being pro-life means only being against abortion. To do so would be throwing away the lives of every person on death row wondering when their going to have a needle stuck in their arms or a prisoner rotting away in a dark dirty cell somewhere for the rest of his life over a mental illness or drug addiction.

Or an innocent bystander who is callously shot and killed by a trigger happy cop, brave men and women in our armed forces who wonder if it will be the last time they see their loved ones. A drug addict who is desperate to get high shot by an overreacting gun toting constitutionalist.

An boy with down syndrome subjected to genetic testing and treatment for something he couldn’t help, or a misled terminally ill patient who is in nothing but pain who sees no way out. A depressed teenager who’s a homosexual who feels so bullied and so isolated he thinks the only way out is to tie a noose and hang himself with it.

I only see dead babies. On national tv all I see is abortion this abortion that. Yeah abortion is wrong but so is all this other stuff. I think as Catholics if we stood up for this stuff as much as we did those babies; the world would be a better place!

 

[kyrie80]

To do so would be throwing away the lives of every person on death row wondering when their going to have a needle stuck in their arms or a prisoner rotting away in a dark dirty cell somewhere for the rest of his life over a mental illness or drug addiction.

Or an innocent bystander who is callously shot and killed by trigger happy cop, brave men and women in our armed forces who wonder if it will be the last time they see their loved ones. A drug addict who is desperate to get high shot by an overreacting gun toting constitutionalist.

An boy with down syndrome subjected to genetic testing and treatment for something he couldn’t help, or a misled terminally ill patient who is in nothing but pain who sees no way out. A depressed teenager who’s a homosexual who feels so bullied and so isolated he thinks the only way out is to tie a noose and hang himself with it.

I agree that pro-life extends way beyond abortion; however, I can’t but help notice the strong liberal undertones to your message. You seem, although you say it is wrong, to be much more passionate about all those “trigger happy cops” shooting innocent bystanders and “gun toting constitutionalists” shooting drug addicts than abortion. Trust me: way more drug addicts and pushers cause deaths than law abiding citizens exercising their right to own a firearm. And abortion kills way more humans than “trigger happy” cops.

 

[Farsight001]

Technically, people who are not opposed to those other things as well are not pro-life. They are merely anti-abortion. I express my disdain by adamantly referring to them as such and explaining this when they object.

 

[mrld20]

I agree that pro-life extends way beyond abortion; however, I can’t but help notice the strong liberal undertones to your message. You seem, although you say it is wrong, to be much more passionate about all those “trigger happy cops” shooting innocent bystanders and “gun toting constitutionalists” shooting drug addicts than abortion. Trust me: way more drug addicts and pushers cause deaths than law abiding citizens exercising their right to own a firearm. And abortion kills way more humans than “trigger happy” cops.

Any attempt to unnaturally end one’s life outside of God’s design should be wrong… It’s called consistent life ethic.

And I’m sorry to get off topic but one can be “liberal” and still be in good standing with the Church.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Any attempt to unnaturally end one’s life outside of God’s design should be wrong… It’s called consistent life ethic.

So does the consistent life ethic mean that it is always wrong to kill another person? If so, then it is clearly at odds with the Catholic Faith.

 

[inyourface]

i have a question that’s sorta off topic, but someone brought up suicide, so i guess it’s sorta relevant…But if God is omnipotent and omniscient and whatnot, doesn’t He know what people are gonna do later in life? like, doesn’t he know that an individual is going to commit suicide? And if so, is that part of His “design”?
And also, OP you are a smart and insightful individual, I agree with your point 99.999% I go back and forth on some issues with abortion, but that’s the only thing.

 

[mark_a]

I only see dead babies. On national tv all I see is abortion this abortion that. Yeah abortion is wrong but so is all this other stuff. I think as Catholics if we stood up for this stuff as much as we did those babies; the world would be a better place!

One of our local priests wrote an article for our diocesan newspaper that addressed the same common complaint you have. The article brilliantly came down to one word: Proportionality.

 

[Bluegoat]

The usual answer you see people give is that abortion is so much more common, is not really even acknowledged as an evil by many, and is really pretty much totally a matter of attacking the innocent.

I think there is some truth in there. However, I don’t think that it is true that one can vote or choose “sides” over the one issue, because they do not exist in separate boxes. Even if there are few executions for crimes, for example, how we think about those affects our attitude to life. As long as our hearts are hardened, we won’t be able to see these issues properly. I also think it affects our ability to see solutions that will work.

There are other dangers as well - that people will see these individuals as hypocrites and dismiss their message. Or that it is easy to use abortion as a wedge issue to divide people and manipulate them politically. (And I’ll point out that while it may be good for those who want to be elected to divide the people, it isn’t good for making progress against abortion, which is ultimately going to require more unity. It’s by looking at the issues together that we’ll find solutions, not by alienating half the population.)

 

[Joe_5859]

I think what you’re observing is simply that, in the cultural sphere, “pro-life” is a descriptive term used to describe a particular group of people with a specific goal: ending abortion.

We wouldn’t criticize pro-choice people for choosing not to be “fully pro-choice” in advocating for choice in every aspect of life equally – from “family planning” to which cell phone plan to go with to picking between Coke or Pepsi. “Pro-choice” is just a self-chosen moniker for a group of people who stand on a certain side of this particular issue. Same with “Pro-life”.

But, yes, you are correct that Catholics ought to support the Church’s teaching on all issues related to human life and dignity. However, that doesn’t mean each one carries equal weight. For me, the deaths of a million babies each year is far more compelling than the deaths of 50 people on death row in that same time frame. I oppose both, but one is much more heinous than the other.

 

[danserr]

Hi all; this is something that I find frustrating among a lot of Catholics. We are against all forms of abortion. That I can get behind and support 100%. But I have a problem with a lot of Catholics who think “pro-life” is all about dead babies.

“Pro-life” isn’t just about dead babies. It should extend to suicide, euthanasia, eugenics, capital punishment, war, life imprisonment, self-defense, and use of deadly force.

As a Catholic worker I cannot honestly believe that being pro-life means only being against abortion. To do so would be throwing away the lives of every person on death row wondering when their going to have a needle stuck in their arms or a prisoner rotting away in a dark dirty cell somewhere for the rest of his life over a mental illness or drug addiction.

Or an innocent bystander who is callously shot and killed by a trigger happy cop, brave men and women in our armed forces who wonder if it will be the last time they see their loved ones. A drug addict who is desperate to get high shot by an overreacting gun toting constitutionalist.

An boy with down syndrome subjected to genetic testing and treatment for something he couldn’t help, or a misled terminally ill patient who is in nothing but pain who sees no way out. A depressed teenager who’s a homosexual who feels so bullied and so isolated he thinks the only way out is to tie a noose and hang himself with it.

I only see dead babies. On national tv all I see is abortion this abortion that. Yeah abortion is wrong but so is all this other stuff. I think as Catholics if we stood up for this stuff as much as we did those babies; the world would be a better place!

The problem is that abortion is such a bigger issue. With 4,000 unborn babies aborted every day, this far and away dwarfs all the other issues you raise combined. Or put it this way. If the government was rounding up and killing 4,000 homosexuals every day, wouldn’t this be the biggest priority simply by issue of proportion? Wouldn’t it make sense to devote the bulk of our effort there? Well, if unborn babies are human beings (as seems undeniable), and 4,000 of them are dying every day, doesn’t it seem plausible that this should occupy much of our concern, perhaps the greatest proportion of it?

And anyway, Catholics do oppose many of the subjects you raise. We are generally against capital punishment, but so many more unborn babies are killed and the criminal executed has typically done something rather serious (to put it mildly). The greater number of the unborn killed combined with their absolute innocence seems to make this a priority.

War is not absolutely wrong and neither is self defense, and I don’t see that locking someone who has done something serious away for life and being unreasonable. And the Catholic church is certainly strongly against euthanasia and has programs to help people with homosexual inclinations try to live chastely and deal with the suffering their orientation can cause.

So some of the issues you raise as being incompatible with a pro-life stance and not necessarily so. (I mean would it have been more pro-life to fight Hitler or not?), other, the CHurch is indeed concerned with. But I think we have to admit that abortion is the most important moral issue of our time, the one that causes the greatest amount of suffering and numbers of innocent deaths, and so it is understnadbale that a great amount of Church effort would be focused on it.

For a non-Catholic, Christian perspective on the centrality of abortion as an issue.
reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6351

 

[rissa87]

I don’t understand how one can be against capital punishment and life imprisonment at the same time… I know there are other options in the cases where people are legitimately mentally ill, but there are also many cases where life imprisonment or capital punishment are really the only two logical options. I heard once in Catholic radio that the Church acknowledges the state’s authority to exercise capital punishment, but states that it should do so only in the cases of necessity and that imprisonment, etc. should be used when the means are available. There is just no denying that, in certain cases, it is not appropriate to ever release certain types of criminals back into society… And if they are not a candidate for a mental health facility, etc., then what do you do? I’m not saying that any one option is better than the other. There are certain issues that I don’t feel I have the knowledge to address. It is just a thought to consider…

 

[danserr]

But, yes, you are correct that Catholics ought to support the Church’s teaching on all issues related to human life and dignity. However, that doesn’t mean each one carries equal weight. For me, the deaths of a million babies each year is far more compelling than the deaths of 50 people on death row in that same time frame. I oppose both, but one is much more heinous than the other.

agreed

 

[Ignatius]

I think what you’re observing is simply that, in the cultural sphere, “pro-life” is a descriptive term used to describe a particular group of people with a specific goal: ending abortion.

…

Catholics ought to support the Church’s teaching on all issues related to human life and dignity. However, that doesn’t mean each one carries equal weight. …the deaths of a million babies each year is far more compelling than the deaths of 50 people on death row .

There is an infinite difference between intrinsic evils and prudential decisions that one may disagree with. We are commanded to protect the innocent and helpless, who can deny that absolutely the most innocent and most helpless than a child in her mothers womb? No other horror committed even comes close.

 

[St_Francis]

Hi all; this is something that I find frustrating among a lot of Catholics. We are against all forms of abortion. That I can get behind and support 100%. But I have a problem with a lot of Catholics who think “pro-life” is all about dead babies.

“Pro-life” isn’t just about dead babies. It should extend to suicide, euthanasia, eugenics, capital punishment, war, life imprisonment, self-defense, and use of deadly force.

First of all, rather than dissipate their efforts into lots of other issues, the pro-life movement concentrates on the fact that in the US (or their country), it is perfectly legal for women to pay someone to kill their unborn babies, and that this occurs at the rate of something like 800,000 times a year.

That is the way these things work. People accept their limits: time, money, energy, and have to decide how to best utilize those resources, and other people focus their resources on some of the other issues you mention.

 

[kyrie80]

Any attempt to unnaturally end one’s life outside of God’s design should be wrong… It’s called consistent life ethic.

This is technically not correct. While, in general, this argument sounds good and is accurate in most cases, this would mean that killing another human being is never justified. This is definitely not consistent with Catholic teaching.

And I’m sorry to get off topic but one can be “liberal” and still be in good standing with the Church.

Most definitely–provided their motives reflect Church teaching, which goes for liberals and conservatives.

 

[TimothyH]

Just so we all understand what we are dealing with here, it must be understood that the Catholic Worker movement advocates…

A complete rejection of the present social order and a non-violent revolution to establish an order more in accord with Christian values. This can only be done by direct action since political means have failed as a method for bringing about this society. Therefore it the abolishment of capitalism as an economic system.
(catholicworker.org/aimsandmeanstext.cfm?Number=201)

Let’s call it what it is. It’s a communist group.

It calls for widespread and universal ownership by all men of property as a stepping stone to a communism that will be in accord with the Christian teaching of detachment from material goods and which, when realized, will express itself in common ownership.

I’m not questioning anyone’s faith. I just want it clear what we are dealing with here. They advocate a complete overthrow of our current economic and social system, confiscation of private property and business, redistribution of same to a “Worker-ownership” class, etc.

-Tim-

 

[kyrie80]

Just so we all understand what we are dealing with here, it must be understood that the Catholic Worker movement advocates…

A complete rejection of the present social order and a non-violent revolution to establish an order more in accord with Christian values. This can only be done by direct action since political means have failed as a method for bringing about this society. Therefore it the abolishment of capitalism as an economic system.
(catholicworker.org/aimsandmeanstext.cfm?Number=201)

Let’s call it what it is. It’s a communist group.

It calls for widespread and universal ownership by all men of property as a stepping stone to a communism that will be in accord with the Christian teaching of detachment from material goods and which, when realized, will express itself in common ownership.

I’m not questioning anyone’s faith. I just want it clear what we are dealing with here. They advocate a complete overthrow of our current economic and social system, confiscation of private property and business, redistribution of same to a “Worker-ownership” class, etc.

-Tim-

Good catch—I didn’t notice that at first. That would explain the pushing aside of the abortion issue and the babble about all those citizens who own guns and shoot drug addicts.

 

[Rence]

Hi all; this is something that I find frustrating among a lot of Catholics. We are against all forms of abortion. That I can get behind and support 100%. But I have a problem with a lot of Catholics who think “pro-life” is all about dead babies.

I do too…the living ones matter too.

“Pro-life” isn’t just about dead babies. It should extend to suicide, euthanasia, eugenics, capital punishment, war, life imprisonment, self-defense, and use of deadly force.

As a Catholic worker I cannot honestly believe that being pro-life means only being against abortion. To do so would be throwing away the lives of every person on death row wondering when their going to have a needle stuck in their arms or a prisoner rotting away in a dark dirty cell somewhere for the rest of his life over a mental illness or drug addiction.

As a Catholic, I realize that the government has the responsibility to protect its citizens, and if that means locking up criminals, and dispatching those who continue to do evil behind bars, then so be it. Criminals should be held accountable for their actions, and should be prevented from continuing their threatening behavior.

Or an innocent bystander who is callously shot and killed by a trigger happy cop,

I’m not really sure what you mean by that. Though I’m sure that there are some cops that are trigger happy, the ones I know go above and beyond and put themselves at considerable risk for my safety, and the safety of those I care about, and I appreciate them very much. It’s tragic when a bystander gets caught in the middle of a police officer and a criminal, but I hesitate to say it was due to being trigger happy…

brave men and women in our armed forces who wonder if it will be the last time they see their loved ones.

War is always tragic, but sometimes necessary. It was by war that our great country was established, and it was by war, that we are our own country. We owe our freedom to the brave men and women in our armed forces.

A drug addict who is desperate to get high shot by an overreacting gun toting constitutionalist.

Not sure what you mean by that either. Drug addicts destroy themselves and everyone around them.

An boy with down syndrome subjected to genetic testing and treatment for something he couldn’t help,

Yep, tragic.

or a misled terminally ill patient who is in nothing but pain who sees no way out.

It is horrible to watch someone in tremendous pain who has fallen in despair due to not having any relief. Pain and illness are very difficult to deal with. Not sure what that has to do with being pro-life though…

A depressed teenager who’s a homosexual who feels so bullied and so isolated he thinks the only way out is to tie a noose and hang himself with it.

Yes, tragic. But again, I don’t see what that has to do with being ‘pro-life’.

I only see dead babies. On national tv all I see is abortion this abortion that. Yeah abortion is wrong but so is all this other stuff. I think as Catholics if we stood up for this stuff as much as we did those babies; the world would be a better place!

I wish “Pro-lifers” would fight for the dignity and respect of all people, instead of just concentrating on those who haven’t been born yet. IMOHO, it seems people drop off “pro-lifers” radar once they have been born. So many “pro-lifers” say, what good is healthcare if you haven’t been born. To me those are merely the words of a healthy person. So many “pro-lifers” say, what good is food and shelter if you haven’t been born. To me, those are merely the words of those who have never truly lacked food or shelter. There are things worse than death: disease, hunger, pain, despair, desperation. I wish “pro-lifers” would take care of people more. But instead, it tears me up to think that “pro-lifers” forget all about them and their needs just because they’ve been born.

 

[Allegra]

Technically, people who are not opposed to those other things as well are not pro-life. They are merely anti-abortion. I express my disdain by adamantly referring to them as such and explaining this when they object.

You can call me anti-abortion. I have no objection to that.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Yes, in many places, the Catholic Worker Movement has
returned to Dorothy Day’s PRE-Conversion Communist views, with a Christian
veneer. Dorothy Day alway remained somewhat radical, but these CWs are much more
radical than the converted Dorothy Day, who held to orthodox Catholic teaching herself.
Today’s neoMarxists have latched on to Dorothy Day to falsely make her an icon
for their cause.

As for the Death Penalty,
the “Church Teaching Against the Death Penalty” is ONLY a few years old.
For 2,000 years the Church stood solidly FOR the death penalty for some sins.
The argument for the Death Penalty then, was primarily in support of “retribution,”
which is contrary to the gospel message of Christ, at least for sinners in THIS life,
to whom we are supposed to be reaching out to save, even if they are vile sinners.
King Manasseh of Judah was a mass murderer and child-killer (his OWN children, too), whom God not only granted repentance to and forgave, but he actually restored this repentant mass-murderer to the Kingship over Israel. King David committed murder willfully. According to Egyptian law, Moses, by murdering the Egyptian who was beating up the Hebrew, became a murderer, a felon, yet this God-touched man became the greatest hero of the Old Testament thanks to God’s forgiveness and grace.
So I support the Church’s new emphasis on a measure of mercy in death-penalty cases. Some convicted of death penalty offenses are, in fact, innocent. Others can be converted by God and granted repentance. The fact that David couldn’t bring Uriah back to life didn’t stop God from forgiving David and granting him repentance and SPARING HIS LIFE.
As for Life Imprisonment, this should only be for violent or otherwise seriously dangerous offenders, like Bernie Madoff, who stole the life savings of tons of unsuspecting, trusting people, and rapists, home invaders, armed robbers, etc. And even then, if some of them repent and give evidence of the Holy Spirit’s influence in their lives, there is THEN no real need to keep them in prison for decades (at taxpayer expense), rotting away when they need the comfort and spiritual help of a godly Christian Catholic community to grow in grace and virtue, which is not very often possible in the bloody, racist, hate-filled, sodomy-filled, rape-filled, violence and stabbing-filled environment of a so-called “penitentiary.” Watch LOCKUP on MSNBC some time. It is shocking. People aren’t just “doing hard time,” they are being subjected to concentrated demonic levels of brutality and wickedness 24 hours a day. Places like this, while regrettably necessary in our fallen world, are truly “dwelling places of demons” and no place at all for repentant believers.
But those “consistent ethic of life” advocates, who equate the Death Penalty
with Abortion, are dead-wrong (no pun intended).
An unrepentant mass-murderer is NOT an INNOCENT victim. An unborn baby IS innocent, is ALWAYS innocent,
so abortion is much, much worse than the Death Penalty.
We can debate and discuss the other stuff, but abortion - all abortion - is
the unjust taking of INNOCENT human life. That is the key distinction.
Love to all,
Jaypeeto4