Frustrated over single issue pro-lifers

[BVM_1221]

I only see dead babies. On national tv all I see is abortion this abortion that. Yeah abortion is wrong but so is all this other stuff. I think as Catholics if we stood up for this stuff as much as we did those babies; the world would be a better place!

Sorry, but the anti-abortionists are hung up on the word “intrinsic”. In normal use, “intrinsic” means “thoroughly”, or “inherently”, and things like that. This is what the Bishops were thinking about when descibing abortion as “an intrinsic evil”. :coffeeread:

But the anti-abortionists have high-jacked to word “intrinsic” to mean “infinite”. So now abortion is infinitely evil, and therefore trumps everything else, including all other “intrinsic evils”, since abortion is intrinsicly more infinitely more intrinsicly evil then the rest of the mearly ho-hum infinitely intrinsic evils

Hence their insistence that Catholics must be single-issue voters.

 

[wanner47]

Sorry, but the anti-abortionists are hung up on the word “intrinsic”. In normal use, “intrinsic” means “thoroughly”, or “inherently”, and things like that. This is what the Bishops were thinking about when descibing abortion as “an intrinsic evil”. :coffeeread:

But the anti-abortionists have high-jacked to word “intrinsic” to mean “infinite”. So now abortion is infinitely evil, and therefore trumps everything else, including all other “intrinsic evils”, since abortion is intrinsicly more infinitely more intrinsicly evil then the rest of the mearly ho-hum infinitely intrinsic evils

Hence their insistence that Catholics must be single-issue voters.

Here is why I’m a “single issue voter” when it comes to abortion.

If a politician can’t recognize and defend the most basic, inherent human right – the right to life – how can I trust him/her to defend any other right?

 

[BVM_1221]

Here is why I’m a “single issue voter” when it comes to abortion.

If a politician can’t recognize and defend the most basic, inherent human right – the right to life – how can I trust him/her to defend any other right?

Strangely enough, a lot of Democrats manage to do just that. Take note of what the Democrats do support otherwise, and compare that to the Republicans.:coffeeread:

BTW, I am registered with the California Libertarian Party:tiphat:

 

[Balian]

Or an innocent bystander who is callously shot and killed by a trigger happy cop…

I could agree with some of your rant until I read the above quote which is completely ridiculous and groundless. As someone who reads the national news daily I don’t recall a single incidence of a police officer accidentally shooting an innocent person in decades. Police officers are responsible for every round fired from a duty weapon and if a police office in this country shot and killed an innocent person they would be tried and likely convicted of manslaughter. You clearly know nothing about police officers and the use of deadly force. As a retired police officer I never discharged my weapon in over 20 years of service even though there were four occasions when I could have justifiably used deadly force against armed suspects. By the grace of God I was able to avoid that last resort. In all those years I never knew a single “trigger happy” cop. The next time you want to rant try to avoid fabrications about decent and honorable men and women who put their lives on the line every day for thankless people like you and deal with the part of society that you neither want to deal with or would be capable of dealing with. Come to think of it I really can’t agree with you at all since you downplay the holocaust that is abortion which is nothing less than daily mass murder in this country in favor of championing other threats against innocent life that occur far less frequently. I think you could have a little more sympathy for all the innocent children that are killed in the name of convenience rather than having so much concern for criminals who are in the positions they are because of their own faulty choices in life.

 

[Mintaka]

First, thank you for your public service.

Re: “triggerhappy cop” – Alas, sir, I’m afraid that a bad few folks in law enforcement in the US these days are indeed trigger-happy. There’s a very sad trend of “no knock raids” by SWAT teams and other heavily armed police folks, not only shooting the wrong people but indeed going to the wrong houses. A good many little old ladies, blameless family men, and retired military guys who never had committed illegal acts in their lives have been shot. In large numbers, every year, for the last ten years or so.

The issue has been most fully covered on blogs, particularly that of Mr. Radley Balko; but a good many other sources have covered local cases of such things. If this junk doesn’t happen in your area, you have good people doing a good job. Not everybody has this good fortune.

The law enforcement folks who’ve commented on it blame a lack of attention to fundamentals (like checking the address), belief in information from extremely dubious sources (like druggies who can’t get the addresses straight), and less than sterling leadership. It also seems that some of the people involved in these disasters think that they’re the stars of their own reality shows or something. Very scary, when you can’t trust peace officers to keep the peace and protect the innocent.

I feel strongly about this, because a SWAT team from my town once had reason to go to work in my apartment building. They took great care to make sure nobody (including the suspect who was off his meds) got hurt. And when I woke up late, having slept through the part when they were clearing out the building, and I opened my front door to find myself nose to nose with a SWAT guy, they reacted appropriately. They did not riddle me with bullets, because they were sane and competent and had good judgment. That’s how I want to expect things to be for everyone.

But in certain other towns, these days, I might not have lived to see the next minute. I would have been marked down as a dead drug dealer or something equally savory, my corpse would have been added to their stats as a good thing, and all I owned would have been confiscated to fund the department. It sounds paranoid; and yet it really does happen. One can only wonder when the “rubber hoses” and the “third degree” will be resurrected by these particular corrupt police departments.

 

[zz912]

Just so we all understand what we are dealing with here, it must be understood that the Catholic Worker movement advocates…

A complete rejection of the present social order and a non-violent revolution to establish an order more in accord with Christian values. This can only be done by direct action since political means have failed as a method for bringing about this society. Therefore it the abolishment of capitalism as an economic system.
(catholicworker.org/aimsandmeanstext.cfm?Number=201)

Let’s call it what it is. It’s a communist group.

It calls for widespread and universal ownership by all men of property as a stepping stone to a communism that will be in accord with the Christian teaching of detachment from material goods and which, when realized, will express itself in common ownership.

I’m not questioning anyone’s faith. I just want it clear what we are dealing with here. They advocate a complete overthrow of our current economic and social system, confiscation of private property and business, redistribution of same to a “Worker-ownership” class, etc.

-Tim-

Funny how there is no concern about how communism is mutually exclusive to the Catholic Faith.

I also love how someone who supports communism and total government control, also complains about over-aggressive government agents (i.e. trigger-happy cops).

 

[carn]

“Pro-life” isn’t just about dead babies. It should extend to suicide, euthanasia, eugenics, capital punishment, war, life imprisonment, self-defense, and use of deadly force.

You make an error assuming that this issues are comparable to abortion. But abortion is considered to be always wrong. But suicide (*), capital punishment, war, life imprisonment, self-defense and use of deadly force are not always wrong according to church teaching. (The other stuff is always against church teaching as far as i know.)

Self-defense is actually something, which would be considered moral in a lot of cases even in somecases where only letahl force would be effective.

(*) Here i assume suicide means all acts, that kill oneself. Jumping on a hand grenade is certainly deadly, but not morally wrong if it is done to protect others.

 

[JaneGrey]

I do too…the living ones matter too.

As a Catholic, I realize that the government has the responsibility to protect its citizens, and if that means locking up criminals, and dispatching those who continue to do evil behind bars, then so be it. Criminals should be held accountable for their actions, and should be prevented from continuing their threatening behavior.

I’m not really sure what you mean by that. Though I’m sure that there are some cops that are trigger happy, the ones I know go above and beyond and put themselves at considerable risk for my safety, and the safety of those I care about, and I appreciate them very much. It’s tragic when a bystander gets caught in the middle of a police officer and a criminal, but I hesitate to say it was due to being trigger happy…

War is always tragic, but sometimes necessary. It was by war that our great country was established, and it was by war, that we are our own country. We owe our freedom to the brave men and women in our armed forces.

Not sure what you mean by that either. Drug addicts destroy themselves and everyone around them.

Yep, tragic.

It is horrible to watch someone in tremendous pain who has fallen in despair due to not having any relief. Pain and illness are very difficult to deal with. Not sure what that has to do with being pro-life though…

Yes, tragic. But again, I don’t see what that has to do with being ‘pro-life’.

I wish “Pro-lifers” would fight for the dignity and respect of all people, instead of just concentrating on those who haven’t been born yet. IMOHO, it seems people drop off “pro-lifers” radar once they have been born. So many “pro-lifers” say, what good is healthcare if you haven’t been born. To me those are merely the words of a healthy person. So many “pro-lifers” say, what good is food and shelter if you haven’t been born. To me, those are merely the words of those who have never truly lacked food or shelter. There are things worse than death: disease, hunger, pain, despair, desperation. I wish “pro-lifers” would take care of people more. But instead, it tears me up to think that “pro-lifers” forget all about them and their needs just because they’ve been born.

Very well said. I would add to that, many ‘pro-life’ Christians say that better for a child to be born in a single-parent or less than ideal environment than not to be born at all,which all good and lovely until these same people use the term ‘bastards’ to refer to so called ‘illegitimate’ children. They may be no less pro-life as a result but these people do not know what it is like to be considered a mistake in society.

 

[mrld20]

So basically we have a group of people here who can’t accept anyone “liberal” who is in good standing with the Church.

you guys are oppressive… The Catholic worker movement is in good standing with the church. Dorothy Day it’s founder was given blessed status by the Holy father.

 

[BVM_1221]

You make an error assuming that this issues are comparable to abortion. But abortion is considered to be always wrong…

Here we go again. The misuse of words. :tsktsk::tsktsk::tsktsk:

Yes, abortion is always wrong. But this is not the same as infinitely wrong. So abortion does not unilaterraly trump any other voting consideration. This is why the Bishops insisted that we were not to be one-issue voters.

So, YES, other isues ARE comparable to abortion. :yup::yup:

 

[E.E.N.S]

Any attempt to unnaturally end one’s life outside of God’s design should be wrong… It’s called consistent life ethic.

There are times where it’s acceptable, to take another person’s life: certain situations involving self defense, or the defense of another, or even capital punishment (albeit this should be extremely rare in modern society.)

 

[Joe_5859]

So basically we have a group of people here who can’t accept anyone “liberal” who is in good standing with the Church.

you guys are oppressive… The Catholic worker movement is in good standing with the church. Dorothy Day it’s founder was given blessed status by the Holy father.

I hope you’re not dismissing everyone’s posts by thinking we’re all “oppressive”. I thought at least some posters above have made some very well-articulated points to consider and made them in a very non-confrontational way.

 

[Joe_5859]

Here we go again. The misuse of words. :tsktsk::tsktsk::tsktsk:

Yes, abortion is always wrong. But this is not the same as infinitely wrong. So abortion does not unilaterraly trump any other voting consideration. This is why the Bishops insisted that we were not to be one-issue voters.

So, YES, other isues ARE comparable to abortion. :yup::yup:

That’s not exactly what the bishops said (at least, if we’re talking about the Faithful Citizenship document). They said that we should not vote for someone because of their stance on a single issue. But we can (and should) not vote for someone because of their stance on a single issue when that issue involves an intrinsic grave moral evil (like abortion or institutional racism, to use their examples).

 

[Corki]

Sorry, but the anti-abortionists are hung up on the word “intrinsic”. In normal use, “intrinsic” means “thoroughly”, or “inherently”, and things like that. This is what the Bishops were thinking about when descibing abortion as “an intrinsic evil”. :coffeeread:

But the anti-abortionists have high-jacked to word “intrinsic” to mean “infinite”. So now abortion is infinitely evil, and therefore trumps everything else, including all other “intrinsic evils”, since abortion is intrinsicly more infinitely more intrinsicly evil then the rest of the mearly ho-hum infinitely intrinsic evils

Hence their insistence that Catholics must be single-issue voters.

I think that’s an unfair generalization. When we speak of intrinsic evil, it is an acknowledgement that the act itself is evil regardless of how it is done. There are other issues that are intrinsically evil that affect us as citizens - euthanasia, embryo destructive research, child abuse.

There are other issues where the morality is more based on the “how” and not the “what”. It is a moral imperitive to care for the poor. It is evil to abandon the poor. As voters we aren’t ever faced (at least in the US) with voting for legislation or candidates who abandon the poor. But we are faced with differences in** how **they want to care for the poor. So, funding social service programs cannot be viewed in terms of intrinsic evil (or good). It is a matter of judgement and how best to apply the moral teaching.

I also think it is unfair to characterize those of us who defend the Church’s position as being always and everywhere opposed to abortion as “single issue” pro-lifers. I have yet to meet any pro-lifer that was opposed only to abortion and who took the opposite view on other life issues. Overwhelmingly, the same people who are anti-abortion are also committed to protecting life from other attacks besides just abortion. Where there is a divide is that most anti-abortion Catholics see a clear hierachy between protection of life itself and quality of life issues. We tend to stand with Blessed Pope John Paul II when he said:

The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God, finds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination.

 

[E.E.N.S]

So, YES, other isues ARE comparable to abortion. :yup::yup:

Such as?

 

[TimothyH]

So basically we have a group of people here who can’t accept anyone “liberal” who is in good standing with the Church.

you guys are oppressive… The Catholic worker movement is in good standing with the church. Dorothy Day it’s founder was given blessed status by the Holy father.

See, that’s the problem right there.

Anyone who disagrees with you on economic or political issues is automatically “Opressing” you. Any resistance to your attempts to impliment your political or economic system is automatically some form of denial of your God given right to justice.

I’ll speak for myself.

I am not opressing you. I am disagreeing with you - on a very fundamental level. I believe that your economic and political system will be disasterous to the condition of humanity, the economics of the world, and to the salvation of billions of people throughout the world, and I believe that my position is validated by the facts of history. And so I desire, and will work to see that your political and economic system does not succeede.

I don’t question your faith, your motives, your morality, or your standing with the Church or with God.

Why can’t you accept that many people have fundamental disagrements about the best way to build the City of God without automatically accusing people of personally attacking you and thereby sinning against God?

-Tim-

 

[wanner47]

So basically we have a group of people here who can’t accept anyone “liberal” who is in good standing with the Church.

you guys are oppressive… The Catholic worker movement is in good standing with the church. Dorothy Day it’s founder was given blessed status by the Holy father.

I can’t vote for anyone who believes that the murder of 50 million innocent human beings since 1973 is less important than any other issue.

Period.

If that makes me “oppressive,” then so be it. Basic human rights are the foundation for all our other rights, and that’s what we need to fight for.

 

[mrld20]

I hope you’re not dismissing everyone’s posts by thinking we’re all “oppressive”. I thought at least some posters above have made some very well-articulated points to consider and made them in a very non-confrontational way.

I’m frustrated because so many Catholics lack the same strong sense of social justice I do… They’ve become marching goblins of the Republican Party and only see abortion as the “big evil.” Yeah abortion is horrible, but so is suicide, capital punishment, war etc.

I’m frustrated because every Catholic here thinks I’m a commie for the views I have… Every time I meet a fellow Catholic they don’t share any views on social justice I have… It’s sad because the Pope and Vatican have issued all sorts of documents and homilies on social justice issues and so many Catholics ignore them…

 

[kyrie80]

I’m frustrated because so many Catholics lack the same strong sense of social justice I do… They’ve become marching goblins of the Republican Party and only see abortion as the “big evil.” Yeah abortion is horrible, but so is suicide, capital punishment, war etc.

I’m frustrated because every Catholic here thinks I’m a commie for the views I have… Every time I meet a fellow Catholic they don’t share any views on social justice I have… It’s sad because the Pope and Vatican have issued all sorts of documents and homilies on social justice issues and so many Catholics ignore them…

However, that is not what you said. You said that we have a group of people here (presumably meaning on this posting thread) that can’t accept liberals as being in good standing with the Church. The only problem is that nobody said anything remotely of the kind.

Regarding your statement, “Yeah abortion is horrible, but so is suicide, capital punishment, war etc.,” the Church begs to differ on some portions. Despite popular belief, the Catechism DOES allow for capital punishment. There are also basic tenets laid out for just war.

We can certainly debate whether capital punishment is administered fairly (I believe it is a mixed bag in this regard); however, to say that capital punishment as a whole is evil and contradicts Church teaching, is false.

I do agree with you that there are many in the Church who disregard the “preferential option of the poor,” just like many disregard teachings such as artificial contraception, purgatory, and on down the line. There are Catholics who disregard many teachings of the Church which serves to show that we are fallen, sinful beings. This is exactly why we should be praying for each other.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m frustrated because so many Catholics lack the same strong sense of social justice I do… They’ve become marching goblins of the Republican Party and only see abortion as the “big evil.” Yeah abortion is horrible, but so is suicide, capital punishment, war etc.

I’m frustrated because every Catholic here thinks I’m a commie for the views I have… Every time I meet a fellow Catholic they don’t share any views on social justice I have… It’s sad because the Pope and Vatican have issued all sorts of documents and homilies on social justice issues and so many Catholics ignore them…

I think you’re not doing yourself any favors by generalizing and assuming you know how other Catholics think and feel.

Speaking for myself, I certainly don’t think you’re a “commie”. You’re right, the Church has a very rich wealth of writings on social justice issues, from Rerum Novarum on up through Caritas in Veritate. We do not ignore them.

We have a moral obligation to work on all social justice issues. But, of course, that doesn’t mean that each individual can devote an equal amount of time to each issue. Some will necessarily need to focus on one issue or another in order for us to be effective.

Also, Corki brings up a great point that sometimes there can be a legitimate difference of opinion in how we go about doing what Catholic teaching shows us must be done. We all agree that we must help the poor. But we might disagree on whether a particular program (like welfare) is the best means to acheive that end. That doesn’t mean that one person is a better Catholic than the other. In fact, I think the discussion is important to lead us towards better and better means of helping the poor.

I am sure you don’t want people to mistake your passion for social justice as meaning you don’t care about abortion. So try not to mistake another person’s passion to end abortion for a neglect of other social justice issues.

All this is not to say that other posters here aren’t very forthcoming about opinions that are going to rub you the wrong way. This is the internet, after all.