Frustrated with couples who live together before marriage

[Morwenna]

I remember Christopher West in one of his TOB talks brought up something that I have struggled with ever since I heard it. Regarding the point someone made about it not being a sin if they don’t believe it’s a sin or those outside the church that don’t even know it’s sinful. Most practicing Catholics know the 3 conditions of mortal sin. Here’s the analogy. Lets say you handed someone a glass of poison, told them it was water, they drank it, and they die. They didn’t commit the sin of suicide because they didn’t know it was poison but they will still die. Now the question. Even though someone does not know or believe something is a sin, isn’t the damage the sin causes is still being done? If you understand the church’s teaching on the meaning of human sexuality (JPIIs TOB), aren’t you conditioning each other to see sex as something different than what was intended to be? Doesn’t cohabitation send the wrong message to others, especially children? Too much to say here. I think I’ll start another thread on this topic.

WOW.

Wonderful post, howletus. Lots of food for thought here. Please PM me if you do start a separate thread on this topic, as I’d be very interested in the discussion.

Thank you

 

[howletus]

That’s what makes it so hard to have a relationship with my brothers right now. The thought of visiting them in their new homes with their new “live-in” girlfriends and just pretend like everything is OK. They would say they are doing the best they can. The joy they get and the financial benefits of living with their girlfriends outweigh whatever sin they might be commiting.
Living as God calls us to live is not what will bring them happiness and peace. Living as God calls us to live is what will PREVENT them from being happy. This is the message these “Catholic” men are sending their kids. God is just not real. Sin is just not real. Catechism as kids did supplement what we learned about our faith from our parents, it took the place of it. Most Catholics today just don’t know or understand their faith. It’s just not real. I see, feel, and suffer the damage that their mortal sins that “aren’t mortal sins” are causing. I suffer more than them for these sins it seems. They are the happy ones.
This seems to be the crux of what it means to share in Christ’s suffering from the sins of others. I see and better understand all the damage being done on so many levels. I fear for them, I worry about their children, I suffer, and I pray for them. Their living situations are the worst part of MY life right now. Them, they seem to be having a great time.

 

[howletus]

That’s what makes it so hard to have a relationship with my brothers right now. The thought of visiting them in their new homes with their new “live-in” girlfriends and just pretend like everything is OK. They would say they are doing the best they can. The joy they get and the financial benefits of living with their girlfriends outweigh whatever sin they might be commiting.
Living as God calls us to live is not what will bring them happiness and peace. Living as God calls us to live is what will PREVENT them from being happy. This is the message these “Catholic” men are sending their kids. God is just not real. Sin is just not real. Catechism as kids did supplement what we learned about our faith from our parents, it took the place of it. Most Catholics today just don’t know or understand their faith. It’s just not real. I see, feel, and suffer the damage that their mortal sins that “aren’t mortal sins” are causing. I suffer more than them for these sins it seems. They are the happy ones.
This seems to be the crux of what it means to share in Christ’s suffering from the sins of others. I see and better understand all the damage being done on so many levels. I fear for them, I worry about their children, I suffer, and I pray for them. Their living situations are the worst part of MY life right now. Them, they seem to be having a great time.

I meant Catechism DIDN’T supplement what we learned about our faith from our parents, it replaced it.

 

[Morwenna]

That’s what makes it so hard to have a relationship with my brothers right now. The thought of visiting them in their new homes with their new “live-in” girlfriends and just pretend like everything is OK. They would say they are doing the best they can. The joy they get and the financial benefits of living with their girlfriends outweigh whatever sin they might be commiting.
Living as God calls us to live is not what will bring them happiness and peace. Living as God calls us to live is what will PREVENT them from being happy. This is the message these “Catholic” men are sending their kids. God is just not real. Sin is just not real. Catechism as kids did supplement what we learned about our faith from our parents, it took the place of it. Most Catholics today just don’t know or understand their faith. It’s just not real. I see, feel, and suffer the damage that their mortal sins that “aren’t mortal sins” are causing. I suffer more than them for these sins it seems. They are the happy ones.
This seems to be the crux of what it means to share in Christ’s suffering from the sins of others. I see and better understand all the damage being done on so many levels. I fear for them, I worry about their children, I suffer, and I pray for them. Their living situations are the worst part of MY life right now. Them, they seem to be having a great time.

Oh, I wouldn’t be too sure about that last part.

Some people are very skilled in putting up ‘happy’ fronts, proclaiming loudly and frequently how happy they are, while things aren’t really all sunshine and roses in reality. I’m not saying this is necessarily the case with your brothers, but don’t discount the possibility. For example, think of so many of the ‘rich and famous’: they have ‘everything’ in the eyes of the world, but don’t many of them seem (deep down) to be miserable in their personal lives? Drifting from marriage to marriage (or affair to affair), drugs, spending money on foolish things … these aren’t behaviors of truly happy people … they’re behaviors of unhappy people who happen to have expensive clothing, houses, cars, etc.

What I’m trying to say is this: don’t be too quick to judge by exteriors. You can’t see into their hearts. Please don’t think for a moment that cohabitators aren’t experiencing trials and suffering, or that they are somehow avoiding the effects of their choices … they aren’t avoiding them. Your poison-analogy post upthread illustrated that marvellously. It may not necessarily be apparent to anyone outside the relationship, but the poison of sin is there.

Keep praying for them, and for all the rest of us who struggle with our own individual Achilles’ Heels of sin, whatever they might be.

 

[Belle10]

I think my Theo teacher says that’s called “actual sin” which is something that is intrinsically bad but the person who commits the act is either unaware or doesn’t believe it to be sinful. Like how alot of catholics don’t know about the “grave sin” rule and recieve communion without confessing it first.

Thanks for the info. on this – interesting.

 

[lotusblossom]

People who live together before marriage are not better prepared for it…They are more likely to marry just because they feel like they have to. Living together does nothing to prepare people for the reality of marriage since living together is just an illusion.

Back to the OP though…if the leader already addressed the cohabitation issue with the couple, then I think the right thing to do is assume that they are having a chaste relationship. As far as being their sponsor, you are there to answer any questions that they might have, not judge them. I would never tell anyone that it is OK to live together, but I think you need to be careful of putting them in a situation where they are having a lot of people making assumptions about them if they have already discussed their situation with the leader. There might be additional information that you are unaware of, and I don’t think that they should have to reveal extremely personal information to multiple people. One person who has a leadership role should be sufficient.

Thanks! This is where I’m struggling - not so much judging them before b/c I did assume they were living as brother and sister, but they’ve never made that apparent and have done the opposite. We had them over a few weeks ago and told us they got engaged while on vacation together in their bed ("We were in bed one morning and I turned to fiance and said, “How would you like to get married?”). He told DH that he loves to read with fiance before they go to sleep…just things like that and have told other members of RCIA that they live together as if it were the norm. Anyway, that’s one main reason why we want to talk to our leader because if she has talked to them, then we shouldn’t need any further discussion and we would feel at peace knowing someone has talked to them. I really don’t think he knew that cohabitation was against Church teaching and the effects it has.

 

[kage_ar]

Tough topic. I didn’t live with or have sex with my husband prior to marriage. That said, I think I was worse off for it. Not that I’m condoning sin, but for me, if I had lived with him for even 5 minutes the marriage wouldn’t have happened. There are things I learned about him that I would only have learned if I had been living in sin, and they are deal breakers. We are separated for the third time, this time just over a year, and we’ve both sinned atrociously in our marriage. It’s been a dark, dark ride. I know I did the right thing, but that certainly doesn’t guarantee happiness.

Yeah, I get frustrated with people living together too. But sometimes I look at them and think they’re better prepared for marriage than I was because they’re not in for a rude awakening. I encourage my nieces/nephews not to do it, but I can see both sides of this.

Prayers for you.

Something so important, was it not discussed during your FOCUS test or pre-Cana?

 

[Sina]

Quote: “Same thing goes for seeing families with only 1 or 2 kids rather than 4. Pray for them.”

Don’t think that really applies. There certainly shouldn’t be an assumption that a couple with only two children is living in sin! Isn’t that what NFP is for? Not to mention health issues. I don’t really think that’s an analogous situation at all.

I just think people judge families who don’t have more than 2 kids - and I have heard people assume it is because they are using ABC.

Also, although living together before marriage is a sin, not everyone living together before marriage is engaging in pre-marital sex. Yes, it is true that it is tempting, and it is scandalous to live together before marriage, but again, not everyone is having sex.

I still think it is analogous but your clarification is well taken.

 

[Cassy]

I really felt a need to comment because i was insulted by reading this. I would like to say that I have been with my boyfriend for 6 years and living with him for 5 years. I understand that this may be seen as sinful. However we live with each other as brother and sister, we dont have sex. Now i know for most people this is impossible but we are able to not. I know that living with each other makes it easier for the temptation however I almost think of us living together and not engaging in sexual activities is extremely admirable. Therefore as you can tell reading this comments could be insulting to someone like me. I would also like to note that we have not gotten married yet because we are not where we would like to be financially. and because we do not believe in contraception we would like to be financially prepared for children, I am also in graduate school and i think it would be hard to have a family at the same time. Well I just wanted to share this information with you all, so everyone knew that it is indeed possible to live with someone you love and not be living in sin.

 

[bayoubutterfly]

It’s not our place to judge.

 

[Sina]

I really felt a need to comment because i was insulted by reading this. I would like to say that I have been with my boyfriend for 6 years and living with him for 5 years. I understand that this may be seen as sinful. However we live with each other as brother and sister, we dont have sex. Now i know for most people this is impossible but we are able to not. I know that living with each other makes it easier for the temptation however I almost think of us living together and not engaging in sexual activities is extremely admirable. Therefore as you can tell reading this comments could be insulting to someone like me. I would also like to note that we have not gotten married yet because we are not where we would like to be financially. and because we do not believe in contraception we would like to be financially prepared for children, I am also in graduate school and i think it would be hard to have a family at the same time. Well I just wanted to share this information with you all, so everyone knew that it is indeed possible to live with someone you love and not be living in sin.

I hear what you are saying : the only thing you are missing is that two people living together “causes scandal” or however you put it. Maybe someone can explain better than me, but even though you are not in a sexual relationship, you are living under one roof as a married couple. So even though it is NONE of our business as to whether you are having sex or not, the community sees you as living together in the same way as someone who is cohabitating and engaged in sexual relations.

I lived with my husband for over a year before we got married. I knew it was wrong but I did it anyways. Just FYI

 

[Norseman82]

OP,

If it were me in the same position as your husband, I would bring up the topic, allow them to clarify if they are living as brother/sister, and if they are not living as brother/sister but rather “in sin”, explain to him: “Look, I cannot in good conscience be your sponsor if you are not going to take this seriously.”

If they are living as brother/sister, I would still be concerned because of the temptation factor.

 

[bunnynessuk]

I hate it when people say ‘it causes scandal’ im sorry but I really dont give two hoots what anyone thinks about the way I live my life the fact that I am catholic and attend church causes scandal with my h2bs family as if I give a damn, the fact that my h2b and I are planning to wed at 21 causes scandal ampongst other things.

JUDGE LEST YE BE JUDGED!!!

Scandal is nothing more than gossip and rumour and it belongs on the pages of the enquirer amongst people who wish to read tittle tattle and gossip about their neighbours. I would hope that most of us are old enough and dumb enough not to care what others think of us and only care about what our families and what god thinks about the way we live our lifes.

God made us unique with our own minds now lets use them!!!

Back to the OP however if your husband is his sponsor he should be able to discuss the rules of the catholic church so that the spnsored can enter the church without having commited a mortal sin!

J

God Bless

 

[Norseman82]

First of all, clean up your language, this is a Catholic forum.

Second, I don’t understand how simply attending Mass with your fiancee is causing scandal.

JUDGE LEST YE BE JUDGED!!!

Third, this is a favorite saying of those who resist correction and justify their wrongdoing.

Man on sidewalk: “Don’t park your car there, you could get a ticket”.

Man whose car is parked in front of the fire hydrant: “Wah! Wah! Wah! Mommy! Mommy! That mean person is judging me!!”.

 

[lotusblossom]

Thanks for those who gave your kind advice! I was surprised to see this thread come up again - but since it has, I just wanted to let you know the issue has been taken care of.

We talked with our RCIA leader who had already been aware of the situation and was having one of our priests talk to the man. She informed us once they did talk, that they are living as brother and sister and the situation has been taken care of, so we didn’t need to bring it up or worry that DH was sponsoring a man who he felt he couldn’t sponsor in good conscience.

To those who responded about judging - we weren’t trying to judge them so much from a person-to-person perspective, but needed to know the facts from a sponsor-candidate relationship.

 

[mommamia]

Same thing goes for seeing families with only 1 or 2 kids rather than 4. Pray for them.

I hope you will be praying to ease the pain the two miscarriages and loss of my uterus due to hemorrage after my last child.

Certainly you wouldn’t assume I am some kind of sinner because I have less children than you think I should?

 

[ChristineML]

To follow up on howletus’ quoting of a Christopher West example: If someone drinks poison unaware, he is not guilty of suicide, but he is still dead. Is it loving to say nothing as he drinks the poison if YOU know it’s poison? Those who are sinning unaware may be less culpable, but will still experience the harmful consequences. Is it loving to leave them in serious sin without any warning or expression of concern? Out of Christian charity we have the responsibility to warn others in serious sin, “Hey, that glass is full of poison. Drinking it will kill you!” I am not saying it’s easy, by any means. Obviously, we should choose our approach carefully, after much prayer, to try to make our warning as easy to hear as possible.

To bunnynessuk’s “Judge not lest ye be judged:” I understand that passage is telling us not to judge the moral culpability or guilt of the person committing sin – the worst sinner in history might not go to hell if he honestly didn’t know any better – but we can still objectively see and say that X action is sinful and dangerous to one’s eternal salvation. I am teaching catechism to my third and first graders, and under the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” is the explanation that not only must we not endanger our own or our neighbor’s physical health, but we must not endanger others’ spiritual health by giving them bad example, and so encouraging them to sin. That is what “causing scandal” means, not just spreading gossip, which people should voluntarily refrain from.

 

[Sina]

I hope you will be praying to ease the pain the two miscarriages and loss of my uterus due to hemorrage after my last child.

Certainly you wouldn’t assume I am some kind of sinner because I have less children than you think I should?

Hi Mommamia,
Someone else had the same concern as you. I wrote it in a semantic way. I meant it in the way that some people judge others in church when they see a small family ( say 2 rather than 5 kids ) and I was saying that this is wrong, regardless of whether the couple has suffered miscarriages, stillbirths, or is in fact using ABC. I certainly didn’t mean for it to come off in a way that I am the one sitting in the pews wondering why couples aren’t having more kids. !!!

I was using it to compare to the co-habitation situation, and someone already told me they don’t think it is comparable

 

[mschrank]

If that couple is Christian (Catholic or otherwise)- then you should indeed make a fuss about it and try to correct them, and not expose your children to it. You can still be friends but they should know you don’t approve.

If they are not even Christian, then you don’t have the right to be upset. Why should you? They do not believe in your moral and ethical system, and do not worship who you worship. It would be like a muslim getting upset with you for not praying 5 times a day or a vegetarian protesting your eating of meat. To an atheist (or an agnostic who lives like one), there is simply nothing wrong with extramarital relations.

 

[Norseman82]

If they are not even Christian, then you don’t have the right to be upset. Why should you? They do not believe in your moral and ethical system, and do not worship who you worship.

But what about natural law - what St. Paul calls “the law written on our hearts”? (Romans 2:14-15)