Frustrated...

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I find that I am becoming very frustrated in my search for the Church. I have gone from being absolutely convinced that I should become Catholic to being absolutely convinced that I should become Orthodox and then back and forth again and again. I will read one “side’s” perspective and find it fairly convincing, but then I will read what the other “side” has to say, and I will change my mind again.

There is so much I admire about each Church. I love the Catholic Church’s steadfast moral teachings. The word “purity” automatically brings to mind the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church concerns me a bit, particularly when it comes to their view of sex and marriage.

Then again, the Orthodox Church seems to have a much “kinder” view of God, whereas (and I mean no offense) the Catholic Church can sometimes portray God as being kind of, well, mean. In the Orthodox Church, there is this tremendous emphasis on God saving us by conquering death and giving us eternal life. In the Catholic Church, there is this idea that God had to die to satisfy a debt to Himself because of the violation of a rule that He made by creatures that He created, who were acting according to the instincts and desires that He gave them. In the Orthodox Church, there seems to be a more confident hope of Heaven, whereas Catholic theologians for centuries have tried to condemn all sorts of people (included unbaptized infants who have never sinned in their lives ) to Hell.

I also become frustrated when I contrast the teachings of the Catholic Church today (particularly as expressed in the CCC) with many teachings from the past. The CCC describes a Church that I love and almost fully agree with, but then I read about how “it is absolutely necessary for salvation for everyone to be subject to the Roman pontiff” and how original sin alone, even in infants is enough to condemn someone. I’ve read through numerous debates about when infallibility really applies, and whether or not teachings are binding today. I’m in the military; will I be in danger of Hell if I use a crossbow?

I also find myself becoming a bit cynical about the conclusions of Church councils. The elders met, they voted, and decisions were made. How do I know that God guided their votes? In many situations, such as the proclamation of papal infallibility at Vatican I, it seems more like a combination of threats and political maneuvering, rather than the Holy Spirit guiding the Church.

I love this forum, and I have learned a great deal here. I would greatly appreciate any help or advice anyone here can give me. I will be returning from Iraq soon , and I really need to become part of a Church. I have been a visitor at Catholic and Orthodox churches for several years now, but I have not been a member of any church at all. I’m almost tempted to find a traditional Anglican church, where I can experience a traditional, liturgical style of worship. Plus, with the Anglican “branch theory,” I could still affirm the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as being part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Still, I see that choice as ultimately unsatisfying…

Thanks for any help! God bless!

 

[puzzleannie]

continue your study of real Catholic doctrine, what the Church actually teaches, not opinions of various writers and commentators. do this study under the guidance of a priest or someone he designates who is interested in teaching the truth, not personal opinion.

do not confuse emotion, feeling and reactions based on personal experience with Truth. Read the bible and pray every day, and before you start, ask the Holy Spirit for enlightenment. continue to attend Mass because Jesus speaks to you there even before you can receive communion. during that time ask Jesus to guide your journey, and turn over control to him, rather than trying to control the process yourself.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The statement “…and I really need to become part of a Church” tells a lot. You obviously see the validity of “The Church” and Christ as being inseparable. That fact alone should tell you that nothing but The Catholic Church is the correct path since Protestants do not in general revere the The Church as The Mystical Body of Christ like we Catholics do. Their focus is on the Bible alone and most lack even a liturgy and the Holy Mass. But the same statement also suggests a sort of inner disposition that one can “shop around” for “the best church” as if they are all in a large supermarket and can be joined equally. I suggest that this is not the proper inner attitude to take. One is called by Christ to enter into communion with Him through “His” Church. There is both a personal relationship as well as a community relationship. Let us be clear here - there is no such thing as a plurality of churches just as there is no concept of Christ having multiple bodies. We are all many members of one physical and mystical body of Christ - One Church. The choice is critical and there are many imposters or partial faiths out there. It is our hope that Orthodox, who do have a valid apostolic succession will come into full communion with the Catholic Church.

Also, keep in mind that some of the things you see as objectionable in The Catholic Church, or as less than perfect are indicative of the fact that we are made up of a congregations of very human and imperfect sinners - the very same kinds of people Christ associated with and chose as his apostles. We and the clergy and bishops (and the pope as a bishop) are not individually impeccable. However the bishops when coming together to rule and resolve dogmatic matters on morals and faith in union with the pope are infallible. I would recommend you not get too hung up on the “infallability” thing. Just look at how extremely well integrated The Catholic Church is with respect to scripture and tradition. Nothing on the planet is in the same league. When one considers that uniqueness of the apostolic succession all the way back to St. Peter its a slam dunk in my opinion.

It is less a matter of Catholic by choice as it is Catholic by invitation. You will be clearly called to enter into communion with Christ and YThe Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church by the Holy Spirit if you pray on this and follow your heart. You will get a sudden feeling of “home” and “family” that will swell up in you when your spirit is ready and compel you to run as fast as you can to be part of the family. You hear the call now but other things are trying to interfere with that call and confuse you.

I recommend “hanging out” with a few good Catholic men or priests and getting to know them personally. These will help you transition fully into our family.

God Bless and may He speed you on your way home,
James

 

[Trishie]

I ask the Holy Spirit to powerfully guide you. Trust in Him and ask His guidance and pray sincerely to live God’s will for you.

 

[Teflon93]

First, ensure that your purpose is to do God’s will, not to satisfy yourself.

Second, pray. Ask God what He wants you to do.

Third, do it.

You’ve done your homework, God will help you over the remaining hurdle of doubt.

It may help to read the account of Abraham and Isaac again. Abraham didn’t require proof beyond all doubt, for which he was blessed as the father of many peoples.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Hello again, Iambic. Hope all is well with you.

In the Catholic Church, there is this idea that God had to die to satisfy a debt to Himself because of the violation of a rule that He made by creatures that He created, who were acting according to the instincts and desires that He gave them.

This is the part of your post that stuck out with me. In over 50 years of being a Roman Catholic, I have never encountered anything like this. May I ask, where did you get this?

First of all, I would say God didn’t **have **to die to satisfy a debt. He chose to. “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friend.” (John 15:13) I find this to be an act of love and kindness greater than anything humanity deserves. And I’d always been taught (someone correct me if I’m wrong about this) that it wasn’t necessary for Christ to suffer *that *much in order to satisfy the debt. I’d always heard that the mere shedding of a single drop of His blood was sufficient, since He is both man and God. That is, the sacrifice needed to satisfy the debt had to be perfect, and any perfect sacrifice would do. Jesus, however, chose to go far beyond this in His infinite Love for us. Again, someone correct me if I’m wrong about that.

As for “the violation of a rule that He made by creatures that He created, who were acting according to the instincts and desires that He gave them” . . . uh, correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re making it sound as if God gave us an instinct to violate His rules, that is, an instinct for evil. I hope that’s not what you mean, and I hope I’m misreading that. I would say God gave Adam and Eve the *capability *to choose evil (that is, He gave them free will) but not an instinct for it. And I would say that choosing evil actually goes against human nature the way God created it, for when God created Adam and Eve, He created them perfect.

And as for some Catholics condemning others to Hell, I’m afraid you’re going to find both wheat and weeds in any religion. However, what is the Church’s* official* position? I believe it’s always been that we mere humans cannot judge who ends up in Hell.

BTW, I applaud your desire to be careful. Finding the Truth matters because Jesus is the Truth.

 

[buffalo]

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

 

[Howard_Roark]

Let me give you a couple of perhaps helpful points:

1.There are a variety of theological explanations of the Atonement. You have focused in on the legal one, that’s just one of them. You will, if you look, find Catholic theologians using a variety of analogies to explani the Atonement.

2.In the same way that you won’t find an Papal proclamation about In-Vitro-Fertilization in the 12th century (obviously anachronistic) you won’t find anyone using a crossbow in organized warfare today. Something can be true and still not really applicable at a specific time. The crossbow teaching is not directly applicable today.

Instead, see that at one time, a Pope was pleading against what he considered a particularly destructive advancement in military technology…you will find modern Popes pleading with the armies of the world in a similar way not to use nuclear, chemical, biological, or especially indiscriminate weapons. The fact that technology moves on and what was once fearsome seems quaint today, doesn’t invalidate the principle.

 

[graceandglory]

The Iambic Pen;3805110:

I have gone from being absolutely convinced that I should become Catholic to being absolutely convinced that I should become Orthodox and then back and forth again and again.

There is so much I admire about each Church. I love the Catholic Church’s steadfast moral teachings. The word “purity” automatically brings to mind the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church concerns me a bit, particularly when it comes to their view of sex and marriage.

I was in the same boat about four years ago. In fact I was attending Orthodox churches four years ago, before I finally “came Home” to the Roman Catholic Church.

The first clincher for me was what I noticed as a very separated nature of the orthodox Churches and their attachment to specific nationalities. I visited the Russian Orthodox church, the Greek Orthodox Church, and a Serbian orthodox church. And to get to each one I had to travel a long way. There wasn’t an orthodox church in my city, and I live in a pretty large city. It just didn’t seem to say “universal” to me. I was not “one of them.” I did not have one of those ethnicities that were covered by the orthodox churches I visited.

What made a huge difference for me was to look at how CHURCH is actually “played out” in real life. The Catholic Church has a very strong and vocal pro-life message and call to personal holiness and purity that I didn’t see reflected in the orthodox churches today. The Catholic Church, like the gospel, is FREE. It isn’t something that has to be purchased with money, it is available to everyone. Anyone can download the catechism, and the papal documents for free. There is a real sense of equality among all Catholic people, no one seems to be better than anyone else, we are all in this “BOAT” together.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

continue your study of real Catholic doctrine, what the Church actually teaches, not opinions of various writers and commentators.

particularly when those writers and commentators are non-Catholics writing about the Catholic Church…

But the same statement also suggests a sort of inner disposition that one can “shop around” for “the best church” as if they are all in a large supermarket and can be joined equally.

Ah, but what I am interested in is truth, not my personal preference. I think, though, that even from a Catholic perspective, it would be better for me to become Orthodox than to spend the rest of my life undecided.

Just look at how extremely well integrated The Catholic Church is with respect to scripture and tradition. Nothing on the planet is in the same league.

Yes, I think I agree with this.

I recommend “hanging out” with a few good Catholic men or priests and getting to know them personally. These will help you transition fully into our family.

Excellent idea!

First, ensure that your purpose is to do God’s will, not to satisfy yourself.

Absolutely.

Second, pray. Ask God what He wants you to do.

Yes.

Third, do it.

Of course. The problem is that this should be fourth, because the third step is finding out what God wants one to do.

It may help to read the account of Abraham and Isaac again. Abraham didn’t require proof beyond all doubt, for which he was blessed as the father of many peoples.

Yes, I will do that.

This is the part of your post that stuck out with me. In over 50 years of being a Roman Catholic, I have never encountered anything like this. May I ask, where did you get this?

Well, I suppose it comes from reading Orthodox apologetics. Many of them believe that Catholics have reduced God’s relationship with us to a legal matter.

As for “the violation of a rule that He made by creatures that He created, who were acting according to the instincts and desires that He gave them” . . . uh, correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re making it sound as if God gave us an instinct to violate His rules, that is, an instinct for evil.

But is this not what Catholics call concupiscience, something with which all of us are born?

However, what is the Church’s* official* position? I believe it’s always been that we mere humans cannot judge who ends up in Hell.

Fair enough.

Let me give you a couple of perhaps helpful points:

1.There are a variety of theological explanations of the Atonement. You have focused in on the legal one, that’s just one of them. You will, if you look, find Catholic theologians using a variety of analogies to explani the Atonement.

I can understand that. Then again, for much of American history, Catholics were predominantly from certain ethnicities, as well. Catholicism has become more ethnically universal, and I think Orthodoxy is heading that way.

What made a huge difference for me was to look at how CHURCH is actually “played out” in real life. The Catholic Church has a very strong and vocal pro-life message and call to personal holiness and purity that I didn’t see reflected in the orthodox churches today.

In that, you may be right. It has certainly been my observation.

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut! God bless!

 

[Kay_Cee]

Well, I suppose it comes from reading Orthodox apologetics. Many of them believe that Catholics have reduced God’s relationship with us to a legal matter.

Goodness, no! God’s relationship with us is not a matter of legalities. It is a matter of love.

I’m very surprised at this. God is our Judge, yes, but He is a Judge who is our Heavenly Father. Fathers don’t judge their children in a cold, sterile courtroom. They judge them with love.

I remember when I was a little girl in first grade of Catholic school, we were taught God made us “to know Him, love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in heaven.” God’s relationship with us isn’t a legal contract. It’s a covenant of love, a familial relationship.

is this not what Catholics call concupiscience, something with which all of us are born?

Okay, I see where you’re coming from.

Yes, there is something called concupiscience, but I think you misunderstand it.

When God created Adam and Eve, He created them perfectly. However, they chose to reject their perfection by sinning. After the Fall, our first parents were less than perfect. Okay so far?

Now, parents can only pass down what they’ve got. Perfect parents would be able to pass perfection to their descendants, but our first parents didn’t have that to pass down to us. In other words, concupiscience is an *absence *of that perfection. Adam and Eve could only pass down their wounded nature, not the perfect nature they had once enjoyed.

So God didn’t create concupiscience; Adam did.

If all this seems unfair, consider what Paul has to say about it: “Just as through one transgression condemnation came upon all, so through one righteous act acquittal and life came to all. For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righeous.” (Romans 5: 18-19) We inherit concupiscience (that is, the *lack *of perfection) from Adam, but we inherit eternal life from the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

If you have more questions about concupiscience, may I suggest opening a thread about it? I’m not an expert on it, but there are many folk here who are much more knowledgable than I.

You have terrific questions. Please keep asking!

 

[fhansen]

But is this not what Catholics call concupiscience, something with which all of us are born?

We are all born with concupiscence now but Adam & Eve weren’t because by concupiscence, Catholic teaching doesn’t mean normal but rather disordered desires-disordered because they’re not completely restrained due to the fact that the Restrainer has been eliminated from the equation because of Original Sin. This means that we’re solely in control of those desires-or that they’re in control of us. This produces a struggle within that can have the result of our recognizing the need for the role of the proper Restrainer in our having self-control. Another way of saying this is that mankind, through A&E, lost the preternatural gift of grace which had given them complete control over their appetites-reason or the spirit being the master of the body or the “flesh”- which Adam & Eve forfeited at the fall. The doctrine of OS means that as humans we must consciously choose obedience-we must make a conscious choice in that one area –that there is a God and He must be obeyed. In this life that conscious choice is brought up and proposed to us by the CC in plain terms. OS is a beautiful explanation for the existence of evil in the world and our present relationship with God.

I also become frustrated when I contrast the teachings of the Catholic Church today (particularly as expressed in the CCC) with many teachings from the past. The CCC describes a Church that I love and almost fully agree with, but then I read about how “it is absolutely necessary for salvation for everyone to be subject to the Roman pontiff”

One often cited source for this doctrine comes from the bull, Unam Sanctam, which primarily addressed this very issue of the schism between the Greek Church and Rome. In it Pope Boniface laid down the principal that God had established a Church and ordained that it would be guided by Him and that to do so meant it would require authority be given to it to decide on matters of faith and so it was critical that the Church have an office for deciding these matters and that office included the Papacy. The Pope knew the importance of every creature being cognizant of that fact and that anyone who hears this and places himself in obedience to the Pontiff of Rome will also be in obedience to God. It is up to each one of us, of course, to decide whether or not we agree with this teaching.

I also find myself becoming a bit cynical about the conclusions of Church councils. The elders met, they voted, and decisions were made. How do I know that God guided their votes? In many situations, such as the proclamation of papal infallibility at Vatican I, it seems more like a combination of threats and political maneuvering, rather than the Holy Spirit guiding the Church.

Councils may seem sloppy because humans are, well, human, but we believe God has His way in them with the result that, for one thing, Church teachings have become plainer and easier to know.