Frustrating confession. Validity?

[Havard]

This whole tobacco thing is such a desperate misdirection.

Marijuana either is immoral or it isn’t, but it has nothing to do with tobacco.

The former is problematic mainly because it impairs your mental faculties, the latter, because it has carcinogens which increase your likelihood of getting cancer. If that’s not apples and oranges, I don’t know what is.

 

[maryjk]

This whole tobacco thing is such a desperate misdirection.

Marijuana either is immoral or it isn’t, but it has nothing to do with tobacco.

The former is problematic mainly because it impairs your mental faculties, the latter, because it has carcinogens which increase your likelihood of getting cancer. If that’s not apples and oranges, I don’t know what is.

Thank you.

Yes.

You can’t look at one thing and use it to decide that something else should be moral. it either is or isn’t.

 

[DoNotWorry]

Thank you.

Yes.

You can’t look at one thing and use it to decide that something else should be moral. it either is or isn’t.

Yes but if you look at the logic used to arrive at deciding the morality of one thing and then apply that to another, it should be fairly consistent. When someone says “It’s unhealthy, it sets a bad example for the kids”, and uses that as the primary reason that something is immoral, then it stands to reason that something else that is unhealthy and sets a bad example for the kids would also be immoral on those grounds. It’s common sense.

 

[Robertanthony]

This whole tobacco thing is such a desperate misdirection.

Marijuana either is immoral or it isn’t, but it has nothing to do with tobacco.

The former is problematic mainly because it impairs your mental faculties, the latter, because it has carcinogens which increase your likelihood of getting cancer. If that’s not apples and oranges, I don’t know what is.

No, i don’t think it is. If your basis for deeming something immoral is that it impairs one’s judgement, then alcohol is equally immoral. Thing is, Jesus’ very first miracle, at the pressing request of his mom, was turning water into a judgement-impairing substance, namely alcohol. So the Church is unlikely to come out and say alcohol is sinful or immoral for obvious reasons! If your basis for calling something immoral is its ill effect(s) on one’s health, smoking or chewing tobacco should qualify as immoral or sinful. No misdirection, just coherence, consistency. Which criteria does the Church or do you use to qualify the use of cannabinoids as sinful or immoral, and once these criteria are established, let us look at other substances that meet these criteria and wonder why those do not fall under the word “sin or immoral”.

 

[Havard]

Yes but if you look at the logic used to arrive at deciding the morality of one thing and then apply that to another, it should be fairly consistent. When someone says “It’s unhealthy, it sets a bad example for the kids”, and uses that as the primary reason that something is immoral, then it stands to reason that something else that is unhealthy and sets a bad example for the kids would also be immoral on those grounds. It’s common sense.

Except the logic is that marijuana usage is immoral because the whole point of using it is to attain varying levels of intoxication/highness/mental impairment. (Or whatever you want to call it.)

 

[Havard]

No, i don’t think it is. If your basis for deeming something immoral is that it impairs one’s judgement, then alcohol is equally immoral. Thing is, Jesus’ very first miracle, at the pressing request of his mom, was turning water into a judgement-impairing substance, namely alcohol. So the Church is unlikely to come out and say alcohol is sinful or immoral for obvious reasons! If your basis for calling something immoral is its ill effect(s) on one’s health, smoking or chewing tobacco should qualify as immoral or sinful. No misdirection, just coherence, consistency. Which criteria does the Church or do you use to qualify the use of cannabinoids as sinful or immoral, and once these criteria are established, let us look at other substances that meet these criteria and wonder why those do not fall under the word “sin or immoral”.

It looks like you missed this post of mine:

It’s really simple.

Virtually all people who smoke pot, do it for the intoxicating effect.

On the other hand, flavor is the primary consideration in the consumption of alcohol. You never hear beer/wine/liquor companies talk about the nice mellow buzz which accompanies their product, nor how fast it will get you plastered. This is the case even with low-end producers such as jug wines or cheap macrobrews. Perhaps there’s a brand of malt liquor out there somewhere that does, but if you’re buying a malt liquor or “fortified wine” that specifically markets to binge-drinkers… well sadly you’ve discovered the reason people keep 40’s in their brown paper bags.

Even the wedding at Cana makes it clear that it was the flavor of the wine - not its alcohol content - that was so notable.

Intoxication is never lauded in Scripture, but the flavor of fine wine is (many times).

 

[Havard]

No, i don’t think it is. If your basis for deeming something immoral is that it impairs one’s judgement, then alcohol is equally immoral. Thing is, Jesus’ very first miracle, at the pressing request of his mom, was turning water into a judgement-impairing substance, namely alcohol. So the Church is unlikely to come out and say alcohol is sinful or immoral for obvious reasons! If your basis for calling something immoral is its ill effect(s) on one’s health, smoking or chewing tobacco should qualify as immoral or sinful. No misdirection, just coherence, consistency. Which criteria does the Church or do you use to qualify the use of cannabinoids as sinful or immoral, and once these criteria are established, let us look at other substances that meet these criteria and wonder why those do not fall under the word “sin or immoral”.

Sorry for the triple-post, but I just want to make it clear that imbibing alcohol is immoral if done for the wrong reasons. Even the first sip if immoral if your whole plan from the get-go is to self-medicate.

As G.K. Chesterton put it, “Drink because you are happy, but never because you are miserable… Never drink because you need it, for this is rational drinking, and the way to death and hell.” This is exactly what people are doing when they say “I need a drink”, or “I could really use a drink.” They want to “take the edge off”. These are all just different ways of saying “I can’t deal with my problems, so I’m going to go take an intoxicant to dull my senses.”

 

[Robertanthony]

It’s really simple.

Virtually all people who smoke pot, do it for the intoxicating effect.

On the other hand, flavor is the primary consideration in the consumption of alcohol. You never hear beer/wine/liquor companies talk about the nice mellow buzz which accompanies their product, nor how fast it will get you plastered. This is the case even with low-end producers such as jug wines or cheap macrobrews. Perhaps there’s a brand of malt liquor out there somewhere that does, but if you’re buying a malt liquor or “fortified wine” that specifically markets to binge-drinkers… well sadly you’ve discovered the reason people keep 40’s in their brown paper bags.

Even the wedding at Cana makes it clear that it was the flavor of the wine - not its alcohol content - that was so notable.

1- It would be a fascinating experiment if you could perfectly replicate the flavours of fine liquors, fine wines but remove its alcohol contents entirely. At the exact same price, you really think a majority of people would go for the alcohol-free version?

2- Jesus was 100% God at Cana, turning water into something that tasted exactly as a delicious wine sans the alcohol was very easy. I think he knew that the flavour alone was not what these folks wanted. They wanted both the flavour and the alcohol.

 

[Havard]

1- It would be a fascinating experiment if you could perfectly replicate the flavours of fine liquors, fine wines but remove its alcohol contents entirely. At the exact same price, you really think a majority of people would go for the alcohol-free version?

Oh, without a doubt! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve wanted to have another glass of delicious wine, but stopped because I had to drive home.

2- Jesus was 100% God at Cana, turning water into something that tasted exactly as a delicious wine sans the alcohol was very easy. I think he knew that the flavour alone was not what these folks wanted. They wanted both the flavour and the alcohol.

Why stop there? Why not make it hydrating wine, with electrolytes? And have it heal ailments, or regrow bald spots? The Blessed Mother pointed out that they were out of wine, so he made the best wine ever. But it was wine, and not wine-like-super-miracle juice. I think it’s as simple as that.

 

[Chayla]

…It would be a fascinating experiment if you could perfectly replicate the flavours of fine liquors, fine wines but remove its alcohol contents entirely. At the exact same price, you really think a majority of people would go for the alcohol-free version?…

I have the answer to this … here is what I observe (I’m in the health field, and deal with this).

No one will drink multiple glasses (like 5, for instance) of orange juice, cranberry juice, lemonade, etc. in one sitting.

But, if the juice or lemonade is spiked, people will keep downing it like there’s no tomorrow.

And, spiking cranberry juice or lemonade with vodka does NOT make it taste better.

So…why do people drink so much more when it’s spiked???

 

[Robertanthony]

I have the answer to this … here is what I observe (I’m in the health field, and deal with this).

No one will drink multiple glasses (like 5, for instance) of orange juice, cranberry juice, lemonade, etc. in one sitting.

But, if the juice or lemonade is spiked, people will keep downing it like there’s no tomorrow.

And, spiking cranberry juice or lemonade with vodka does NOT make it taste better.

So…why do people drink so much more when it’s spiked???

Thank you. Just what I suspected. I personally am not a big fan of alcohol, but alcohol is a big thing these days. Almost like an idol. How many people would be devastated if they were asked to completely go “dry” for a couple of months?

 

[Havard]

I have the answer to this … here is what I observe (I’m in the health field, and deal with this).

No one will drink multiple glasses (like 5, for instance) of orange juice, cranberry juice, lemonade, etc. in one sitting.

But, if the juice or lemonade is spiked, people will keep downing it like there’s no tomorrow.

And, spiking cranberry juice or lemonade with vodka does NOT make it taste better.

So…why do people drink so much more when it’s spiked???

Ugh, that sounds like a horrible stomach ache waiting to happen.

Not all fruity mixed drinks are created equal. You are right, most are perfectly good juices, ruined by some awful, cheap rum. And don’t even get me started on wine coolers. But there is such a thing as a good, fruity alcoholic refresher. A Mimosa with a decent champagne, or a Johnny Walker & Orangina are both really nice, refreshing drinks. But I can’t imagine having more than two of either.

 

[Robertanthony]

Why stop there? Why not make it hydrating wine, with electrolytes? And have it heal ailments, or regrow bald spots? The Blessed Mother pointed out that they were out of wine, so he made the best wine ever. But it was wine, and not wine-like-super-miracle juice. I think it’s as simple as that.

“Why stop there?” As if I said something over the top. According to you, the guests at Cana wanted the taste of wine but did not care for the alcohol in it, so why not give them exactly what they want?

Jesus would have been the 1st to come up with great-tasting alcohol-free wine, everyone could have then enjoyed the exquisite taste of wine without the unavoidable, undesirable alcohol content!

 

[DoNotWorry]

It looks like you missed this post of mine:

Intoxication is never lauded in Scripture, but the flavor of fine wine is (many times).

Proverbs 31:7
Let them drink to forget their poverty and remember their troubles no more.

I’m pretty sure the idea here is to catch a good buzz and literally drink their troubles away, if only for a brief time, not just to enjoy the delicious flavor of Snapple

And cigarettes are not smoked for flavor, I don’t care how USED to the taste a person may have become. The point of smoking is for the EFFECT.

So it is ok to drink alcohol for the effect (at least, in this scripture passage) and ok to smoke cigarettes for the effect (which kill 25% of all long-term users), but using cannabis for the effect in moderation is inherently immoral WHY?

I am seriously not trying to be difficult, but logic and consistency here are important, lest we become like the baptists who just randomly ban things like dancing and drinking for no logical reason.

 

[Havard]

“Why stop there?” As if I said something over the top. According to you, the guests at Cana wanted the taste of wine but did not care for the alcohol in it, so why not give them exactly what they want?

No, I’m pretty sure that you are introducing that notion, about wanting alcohol or not. I think if you reread my posts, I just said that the Blessed Mother said that they needed wine, and that flavor was the measure by which it was judged. Perhaps you’re connecting some of my other comments about alcohol on to my comments about Cana? Whatever is going on, I don’t think I’m saying what you think I’m saying. My apologies for any confusion.

Jesus would have been the 1st to come up with great-tasting alcohol-free wine, everyone could have then enjoyed the exquisite taste of wine without the unavoidable, undesirable alcohol content!

As awesome as that would have been , it would have been a departure from the theme of all of His other miracles.

 

[HelenRose]

I just had an epiphany: you’re like a principal who would ban peanuts from lunches for all 400 students because 2 have an allergy to peanuts.

Perhaps. It is hard to tell where the line is to be drawn on addictions. Generally speaking however, students who are aware that they are allergic to peanuts avoid eating peanuts. People with addictions ignore the warning signs.

 

[HelenRose]

Thank you. Just what I suspected. I personally am not a big fan of alcohol, but alcohol is a big thing these days. Almost like an idol. How many people would be devastated if they were asked to completely go “dry” for a couple of months?

That is not a bad idea. What if each one of us said to ourselves. I will give up smoking tobacco for a couple of months if that is my thing. Or, I will give up marijuana, just to show myself that I am not addicted. Or like you said, I will give up my alcohol.

I never smoked marijuana but I have already given up cigarettes and alcohol.

It certainly is a good idea. I will give up hard cheese for two months. That is my weakness now. Scouts honor.

Helen

 

[HelenRose]

“Why stop there?” As if I said something over the top. According to you, the guests at Cana wanted the taste of wine but did not care for the alcohol in it, so why not give them exactly what they want?

Jesus would have been the 1st to come up with great-tasting alcohol-free wine, everyone could have then enjoyed the exquisite taste of wine without the unavoidable, undesirable alcohol content!

You must remember that in those days and in that place alcohol was the only substance that could kill the pathogens found in liquids. There was no chlorine to kill pathogens nor refrigeration or freezers to keep juices safe. Water in warm desert areas is full of all sorts of disease causing pathogens.

 

[DoNotWorry]

That is not a bad idea. What if each one of us said to ourselves. I will give up smoking tobacco for a couple of months if that is my thing. Or, I will give up marijuana, just to show myself that I am not addicted. Or like you said, I will give up my alcohol.

I never smoked marijuana but I have already given up cigarettes and alcohol.

It certainly is a good idea. I will give up hard cheese for two months. That is my weakness now. Scouts honor.

Helen

Well this is a piece of cake for me. As I said, I’ve only used cannabis once since April 2013.

 

[maryjk]

Thank you. Just what I suspected. I personally am not a big fan of alcohol, but alcohol is a big thing these days. Almost like an idol. How many people would be devastated if they were asked to completely go “dry” for a couple of months?

My only problem with that would be if I were traveling out of town.

Because then I wouldn’t be able to receive Communion.

And yes, I do enjoy a glass of wine, now and then.