Frustrating confession. Validity?

[Havard]

Then every single person who drinks whiskey must be sinning, because I don’t know a single person who prefers the “refreshing” taste of warm whiskey to an ice-cold coca-cola. ANYBODY who drinks straight liquor does so for the effect. For that matter, everyone should just drink non-alcoholic beer, since the effect can only be an unfortunate side effect to the delicious taste of hops. So anyone who chooses alcoholic beer with so many non-alcoholic choices now available is sinning as well.

This is getting a bit ridiculous. EVERYBODY drinks alcohol for the effect, except for the rate gourmet who drinks only a very small glass of wine to compliment their dinner.

This would also make coffee immoral for anyone not strictly drinking decaf, and cigarettes? Might as well just write your ticket to hell right now because NOBODY smokes them for the flavor alone, nobody.

I’m sorry that you think I’m being ridiculous, but I’m hardly a buttoned-down puritan. I happen to be a whiskey drinker… because it tastes so good. I would never use the word refreshing to describe whiskey. Like wine, it should be complex and interesting. Johnny Walker Red & Orangina (a better alternative to Mimosas, btw) are pretty refreshing, though.

When you say that everybody drinks alcohol for the effect, I do agree that there is a growing number of people using alcohol to cope with stress. But I am not alone in seeing this as a problem. With depression and anxiety disorders on the rise, the CDC has been aggressive regarding this, pressing on physicians to inquire of their patients more about alcohol use.

 

[HelenRose]

As far as marijuana goes I think the only moral implication is where it is illegal. I have never used marijuana, but believe it is no worse than alcohol and tobacco and should be legalized and taxed. That being said, I find it morally questionable when “law abiding” middle class people buy and use the drug with no repercussions, while small time dealers are filling courts and jails. So, for me, using in an illegal drug has greater moral implications.

As far as the church goes, I think the priest you encountered may have been a bit over the top. As far as alcohol goes, just point out that Jesus’ first miracle was turning water into wine. Pope Benedict is the man in the middle of the photo below. The man on the left is Karl Rahner, one of the greatest twentieth century theologians.

My grandson came up with that argument “It is no worse than tobacco or alcohol”. I won’t argue with him about it. He may be correct. Smoking killed my sister, my brother, and two of my cousins so I don’t smoke. So now, learning that alcohol is as bad as marijuana, I have decided that except for the Sacred Blood of Christ, I no longer drink alcohol.

 

[glendab]

Hello DoNot.

Morphine and marijuana aren’t even in the same ballpark. If someone could give me a real moral difference between marijuana and alcohol, I would be convinced. Otherwise, I maintain that either both are permissible or neither are. A few beers in the evening to relax on the couch? No big deal? A bite of a marijuana cookie to relax-sinful? Why?

And my point is that the Church HAS NOT ADDRESSED marijuana use in a legal setting. They just haven’t. “Drugs” in the CCC is broad as a barn and could refer to just about anything, including Red Bull. And morphine? Sorry, no. Not even in the same pharmacological category. If the Church would simply address this, I would absolutely go along with it, but in the absence of that, aren’t we left to our own well-formed consciences?

Pot is a drug. It is too well known for you to claim that the Church hasn’t addressed the issue. Third graders know that pot is a drug. It is often called the “Gateway Drug” because it leads to the abuse of others drugs, not necessarily street drugs either. You expect your dope to be listed specifically in the CCC, well if the list of drugs known to man that get abused was listed specifically, there would be thousands of possibilities and the page count would be ridiculously long. So, just because you FEEL that the Vatican hasn’t made a statement yet specifically about your pot being legalized in Colorado, doesn’t mean the Church hasn’t addressed the issue of drug abuse. Your personal denial of pot being a drug doesn’t change the fact that it is a drug.

Persons with a well-formed conscience don’t smoke pot. There is too much proof it is bad and a sin. Like they used to say in high school, “Why do you think they call it dope?” There are good reasons folks are trying to show you that this is wrong. And it is brave of you to speak out like you are here. But the truth is your are jeopardizing your health and well-being as well as committing sin by using pot to “relax” in the evenings. Blaming the Church isn’t an option either.

But you’re free to continue living as you choose. Just do so with the correct information.

Glenda

 

[HelenRose]

My grandson came up with that argument “It is no worse than tobacco or alcohol”. I won’t argue with him about it. He may be correct. Smoking killed my sister, my brother, and two of my cousins so I don’t smoke. So now, learning that alcohol is as bad as marijuana, I have decided that except for the Sacred Blood of Christ, I no longer drink alcohol.

I want to add to my statement above. Drugs - starting with marijuana - killed my niece and totally destroyed the lives of two of my nephews and is slowly destroying the lives of other young people in my family.

So rationalize away if you want to believe that making something legal makes it a good thing. Abortion is legal too. And we know that it certainly kills.

 

[maryjk]

This is getting a bit ridiculous. EVERYBODY drinks alcohol for the effect, except for the rate gourmet who drinks only a very small glass of wine to compliment their dinner.

This would also make coffee immoral for anyone not strictly drinking decaf, and cigarettes? Might as well just write your ticket to hell right now because NOBODY smokes them for the flavor alone, nobody.

Um, no. EVERYBODY doesn’t drink alcohol for the effect. If I didn’t enjoy the flavor, I wouldn’t drink it.

 

[HelenRose]

Since the 70’s I have lived in pot country. I have known that Hotchkiss Colorado and Paonia Colorado produce wonderful strains of marijuana. It was and is a standing joke that if our communities could enter the pot in the county fair, it would take first prize.

It was the adventure of the young boys (my son included) to dress up in army fatigues late at night and cut down whole fields of marijuana just for the fun of it. Some of my neighbors have fought long and hard to make marijuana legal in this state.

There are so many wonderful goals and wonders of this world. I live in one of the most beautiful places on Earth and so many people here, smoke their pot, gaze at the scenery, feel very little pain for others and sleep their lives away.

 

[DoNotWorry]

Hello DoNot.

Pot is a drug. It is too well known for you to claim that the Church hasn’t addressed the issue. Third graders know that pot is a drug. It is often called the “Gateway Drug” because it leads to the abuse of others drugs, not necessarily street drugs either. You expect your dope to be listed specifically in the CCC, well if the list of drugs known to man that get abused was listed specifically, there would be thousands of possibilities and the page count would be ridiculously long. So, just because you FEEL that the Vatican hasn’t made a statement yet specifically about your pot being legalized in Colorado, doesn’t mean the Church hasn’t addressed the issue of drug abuse. Your personal denial of pot being a drug doesn’t change the fact that it is a drug.

Persons with a well-formed conscience don’t smoke pot. There is too much proof it is bad and a sin. Like they used to say in high school, “Why do you think they call it dope?” There are good reasons folks are trying to show you that this is wrong. And it is brave of you to speak out like you are here. But the truth is your are jeopardizing your health and well-being as well as committing sin by using pot to “relax” in the evenings. Blaming the Church isn’t an option either.

But you’re free to continue living as you choose. Just do so with the correct information.

Glenda

You do know that pot as a gateway drug has been disproven with actual facts, yes? It is not a gateway drug where it is legal because people get it through legal channels and not drug dealers, who also sell other drugs.

You also know that alcohol is a drug too right? And that it does more harm to more people than marijuana? 1/4 of all suicides involve alcohol. Alcohol is a factor in THOUSANDS of deaths per year, both from auto accidents and domestic violence, and from health problems like cirrhosis of the liver and liver cancer and countless overdoses. And yet, alcohol in moderation remains licit according to the Church. Hmmm.

Monster energy drink has so far been directly responsible for 5 deaths, including heart attacks according to the FDA.

It takes 1000 times the amount of marijuana that it takes to get “buzzed” to overdose, and only 2 people in the UK have ever been listed as having died from marijuana overdoses. I would have to eat around 25 lbs of it to overdose, yet I could drink enough alcohol to kill me in 5 minutes.
The American Scientist journal also lists alcohol as the number one most lethal abused drug in the world.

So if someone could PLEASE tell me why pot is a no-no and alcohol is not, that would be great.

 

[HelenRose]

You do know that pot as a gateway drug has been disproven with actual facts, yes? It is not a gateway drug where it is legal because people get it through legal channels and not drug dealers, who also sell other drugs.

You also know that alcohol is a drug too right? And that it does more harm to more people than marijuana? 1/4 of all suicides involve alcohol. Alcohol is a factor in THOUSANDS of deaths per year, both from auto accidents and domestic violence, and from health problems like cirrhosis of the liver and liver cancer and countless overdoses. And yet, alcohol in moderation remains licit according to the Church. Hmmm.

Monster energy drink has so far been directly responsible for 5 deaths, including heart attacks according to the FDA.

Not a single person has ever been known to overdose on pot. I would have to eat around 25 lbs of it to overdose, yet I could drink enough alcohol to kill me in 5 minutes.

So if someone could PLEASE tell me why pot is a no-no and alcohol is not, that would be great.

You may be right. Perhaps alcohol should have the same standing as pot. And now that the issue has been brought up, we have an opportunity to discuss this. However, I don’t think the goal should be a matter of making pot as “okay” as alcohol but the goal should be to make “alcohol” as bad as pot.

 

[HelenRose]

Just a question or two:

Does anyone know of a pot user who does not drink alcohol? What are the dangers of mixing these two drugs?

 

[fre803]

I don’t see why this is difficult. There is no question that cannabis is a drug, and there is no question that the Church has defined the use of drugs as a mortal sin. “The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense,” i.e. a “mortal-qualified sin,” if you will. CCC¶2291. The Church has spoken, and clearly-so; if you accept the authority of the Church to forgive sins (which you do by going to confession in the first place), you certainly ought to accept the lesser authority of the Church to delineate sinful conduct.

So the answer to your question—“if someone could PLEASE tell me why pot is a no-no and alcohol is not, that would be great”—is “the Church says so.” Whether that answer makes sense to you or not, whether you can understand why the Church differentiates between alcohol and drugs is irrelevant, and resistance is protestant. The fact is that she does, and the fact is that you have been apprised of that fact if you weren’t aware of it before, which means that continued resistance is dissent and mortal sin. It is no different to saying “if someone could PLEASE tell me why female priests are a no-no and married ones are not, that would be great”—the Church has given you an answer. Any effort to understand teachings with which you disagree should be truly attempts to understand, not (as they usually are with dissenters) to evade.

 

[glendab]

Hello DoNot.

So if someone could PLEASE tell me why pot is a no-no and alcohol is not, that would be great.

The Church has always said that intoxication via booze, whether wine, beer or the hard stuff is a sin and yes it can be mortal. If a person sets out to deliberately get ripped so that they are judgment impaired, then the sin of drunkenness becomes grave matter. To repeatedly do so leave most alcoholics on the debit side of the ledger when it comes to venial/mortal sin. Drus abuse is always gravely immoral. I’ll say it once more and for the last time: the legalization of pot hasn’t removed the grave nature of the sin involved in its abuse.

DoNot, your level of knowledge about all things pot related is beginning to show that your original claim to have innocently imbibed a simple pot cookie once or twice a year is a fiction and the real nature of this thread is to defend pot use for recreation. It is also to challenge the Church’s stance against drugs in general and it isn’t enough to curb your appetite for the drug. That is fine. You have your life to live. I have mine.

Minimalizing the real damage pot can cause in life by comparing it to alcohol abuse isn’t fair. Most folks stick to using the substances that are legal and when you admitted to smoking pot in college, it was then that you made a decision not to obey the laws of the land and a door opened to a compromised lifestyle in which moral relativism plays a great part Another door also shut for you at that time and has been closed ever since. You have been abusing pot for a long time. That is the reality of you choices. You have been blinded as many others to the truth of your situation. I suppose the priest who tried to get you to see the darkness of your sins and the blindness you choose to remain in is one of many you’ve argued with to preserve your compromised position. He got an argument from you and though you disagree, that occurring in a Confessional is too much for me to explain to you. You don’t believe some things are sins that actually are. What you believe doesn’t change the truth. The Truth is a person and He is Eternal. Living a compromised lifestyle in which you’ve turned away from some truths can lead you to rejecting His Truth. It has already cost you much you cannot see because you’ve lived like a blind person all these years. But others are telling you the truth. You simple choose to live in denial so you can smoke pot. Oh well. I’ve said enough.

Glenda

 

[fencersmother]

I think our OP is really just looking for validation that her recreational pot smoking is a-ok.

And of course, pot is a gateway drug… just as beer is. No one STARTS drinking with straight whiskey. No one STARTS abusing cocaine without first knowing pot.

I can’t condone your drug use, DoNotWorry, and moreover, if I were younger and had young children, and knew you smoked pot, even recreationally, I wouldn’t let my kids hang out at your house.

No offense intended. Just saying how I’d react

 

[Havard]

So if someone could PLEASE tell me why pot is a no-no and alcohol is not, that would be great.

It’s really simple.

Virtually all people who smoke pot, do it for the intoxicating effect.

On the other hand, flavor is the primary consideration in the consumption of alcohol. You never hear beer/wine/liquor companies talk about the nice mellow buzz which accompanies their product, nor how fast it will get you plastered. This is the case even with low-end producers such as jug wines or cheap macrobrews. Perhaps there’s a brand of malt liquor out there somewhere that does, but if you’re buying a malt liquor or “fortified wine” that specifically markets to binge-drinkers… well sadly you’ve discovered the reason people keep 40’s in their brown paper bags.

Even the wedding at Cana makes it clear that it was the flavor of the wine - not its alcohol content - that was so notable.

 

[DoNotWorry]

I don’t see why this is difficult. There is no question that cannabis is a drug, and there is no question that the Church has defined the use of drugs as a mortal sin. “The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense,” i.e. a “mortal-qualified sin,” if you will. CCC¶2291. The Church has spoken, and clearly-so; if you accept the authority of the Church to forgive sins (which you do by going to confession in the first place), you certainly ought to accept the lesser authority of the Church to delineate sinful conduct.

So the answer to your question—“if someone could PLEASE tell me why pot is a no-no and alcohol is not, that would be great”—is “the Church says so.” Whether that answer makes sense to you or not, whether you can understand why the Church differentiates between alcohol and drugs is irrelevant, and resistance is protestant. The fact is that she does, and the fact is that you have been apprised of that fact if you weren’t aware of it before, which means that continued resistance is dissent and mortal sin. It is no different to saying “if someone could PLEASE tell me why female priests are a no-no and married ones are not, that would be great”—the Church has given you an answer. Any effort to understand teachings with which you disagree should be truly attempts to understand, not (as they usually are with dissenters) to evade.

Ok, now we’re getting somewhere. So I am to ASSUME that the Catholic Church meant marijuana in that passage, but that my Celestial Seasonings Sleepytime Tea that I take every night to relax me and make me fall asleep is NOT a drug? That Melatonin that I might take to sleep (not prescribed) is also not a drug? Neither is my 5-hour Energy that I use for a blast of energy in the morning? Why? Why not?

 

[maryjk]

DoNot, your level of knowledge about all things pot related is beginning to show that your original claim to have innocently imbibed a simple pot cookie once or twice a year is a fiction and the real nature of this thread is to defend pot use for recreation. It is also to challenge the Church’s stance against drugs in general and it isn’t enough to curb your appetite for the drug. That is fine. You have your life to live. I have mine.
Glenda

I have to agree.

I also have to side with fencersmother. If I had young children, I would not allow them to hang out at the house of someone that uses pot. Even if they claimed it was only twice a year.

 

[fre803]

Ok, now we’re getting somewhere. So I am to ASSUME that the Catholic Church meant marijuana in that passage, but that my Celestial Seasonings Sleepytime Tea that I take every night to relax me and make me fall asleep is NOT a drug? That Melatonin that I might take to sleep (not prescribed) is also not a drug? Neither is my 5-hour Energy that I use for a blast of energy in the morning? Why? Why not?

Whether Sleepytime Tea, Melatonin, or 5-hour Energy are drugs are irrelevant to the immediate question of whether cannabis is a drug. Because the Catechism does not specifically define the word “drug,” we resort to background interpretative principles: When a word is neither expressly defined nor draws a precise definition from its immediate context or its use elsewhere in the document, we assume that it is used in the common, ordinary sense suggested by the context. Thus, for example, when John Paul II refers in Evangelium Vitae 88 to conditions of hardship imposed by challenges such as “drug addiction” and those of “the mentally ill,” it would be desultory to argue that he had in mind not only those suffering under the weights of, for example, heroin addiction and schizophrenia, but also those whose fondness for coffee is *technically *an addiction and those whose anxiety about spiders is *technically *phobic.

So the answer to your question, is yes, you are indeed to assume that where the Catechism uses the word “drugs,” that reference includes cannabis because the word “drugs” ordinarily includes cannabis.

 

[DoNotWorry]

I have to agree.

I also have to side with fencersmother. If I had young children, I would not allow them to hang out at the house of someone that uses pot. Even if they claimed it was only twice a year.

That is a personal choice and an opinion to which you are entitled. By the way, you would not have any idea what I do and do not do in my free time if your children were to come over to my house. We live in an upper-middle-class neighborhood, are in the top tax bracket, own expensive art that we inherited, homeschool our gifted children (my four-year-old can read books and speak French and my 2-year-old can read letters and numbers), have IQs in the 140-range, attend church every week and confession monthly, give to the homeless, donate to Catholic Charities and cook gourmet meals for dinner. We enjoy traveling and skiing and camping and fishing and boating and riding our bikes to the ice cream shop down the street. I daresay that YOU, Judgy McJudgerson, would not be welcome in MY home.

Yes, I know a lot about marijuana because I did a lot of it in college. I also did keg stands and drank Jeagermeister too. What is your point?

 

[maryjk]

That is a personal choice and an opinion to which you are entitled. By the way, you would not have any idea what I do and do not do in my free time if your children were to come over to my house. We live in an upper-middle-class neighborhood, are in the top tax bracket, own expensive art that we inherited, homeschool our gifted children (my four-year-old can read books and speak French and my 2-year-old can read letters and numbers), have IQs in the 140-range, attend church every week and confession monthly, give to the homeless, donate to Catholic Charities and cook gourmet meals for dinner. We enjoy traveling and skiing and camping and fishing and boating and riding our bikes to the ice cream shop down the street. I daresay that YOU, Judgy McJudgerson, would not be welcome in MY home.

Yes, I know a lot about marijuana because I did a lot of it in college. I also did keg stands and drank Jeagermeister too. What is your point?

Name calling doesn’t make your point. And is against the rules on CAF.

Do it again and I will report you.

 

[Havard]

Melatonin is already produced by your body, so taking it if you aren’t producing enough is in no way analogous to taking THC. Caffeine has been shown to have numerous health benefits and not only does it not impair mental faculties, it has been shown to improve them in moderate doses.

You can’t just compare every chemical to THC, each one has its own pro’s, con’s, and overall context.

 

[DoNotWorry]

Whether Sleepytime Tea, Melatonin, or 5-hour Energy are drugs are irrelevant to the immediate question of whether cannabis is a drug. Because the Catechism does not specifically define the word “drug,” we resort to background interpretative principles: When a word is neither expressly defined nor draws a precise definition from its immediate context or its use elsewhere in the document, we assume that it is used in the common, ordinary sense suggested by the context. Thus, for example, when John Paul II refers in Evangelium Vitae 88 to conditions of hardship imposed by challenges such as “drug addiction” and those of “the mentally ill,” it would be desultory to argue that he had in mind not only those suffering under the weights of, for example, heroin addiction and schizophrenia, but also those whose fondness for coffee is *technically *an addiction and those whose anxiety about spiders is *technically *phobic.

So the answer to your question, is yes, you are indeed to assume that where the Catechism uses the word “drugs,” that reference includes cannabis because the word “drugs” ordinarily includes cannabis.

Actually, whether or not 5-hour energy is a drug is absolutely pertinent to the issue at hand. A drug, according to the catechism, causes harm to human health and life. Those are the criteria laid out for us. Under these parameters, energy drinks could be said to be more “drug-like” than cannabis, since they are directly responsible for killing more people and therefore more harmful to human health. As far as being harmful to human life-that one is trickier. I presume this has to do with addiction. Marijuana is not physically addictive, but it can cause psychological dependence in some. I suppose whether or not it is harmful to a person’s life is a very individual thing.

Tobacco is somehow excluded from this, though it is highly addictive and will horribly kill 25% of those who use it.

Alcohol is also excluded, though it is much more addictive and causes much more death and destruction than marijuana.

Cannabis is also not technically a drug. It can be used straight from the ground with zero processing, whereas energy drinks and even chamomile tea are highly processed. So the bottom line is that until the CCC or the Church chooses to enlighten us on what, specifically, a “drug” is, we are left to wonder and try to determine do that on our own. Yes, cannabis has been called a “drug” by many, but this passage really, really needs to be clarified. First it was “illicit” drugs, now the Latin translation refers to “stupefying drugs”, which totally leaves out cocaine and crystal meth, which we all know are poison. This passage needs to be rewritten, badly.
Personally, I know that 5-hour energy is terrible for you and those Monster drinks are too. Might as well drink poison laced with a heart attack.

I am looking forward to some well-thought out and thorough documents from the Church myself, one way or another. I am not going against the Church AT ALL here, but we need a really straight answer. I can’t even get 2 priests to agree on whether or not it is always a serious sin.