FRUSTRATION with Protestantism

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Koineman said:
Apparently you don’t recall the exact words of your statement to which I was responding:

While saying Protestants have another gospel is not the same kind of accusation as “whore of babylon,” it is still just as extreme and severe. That was my point.
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I know what I wrote. You just keep avoiding a Google search. I said you can find examples on the other side but they are rare and hard to find. I wouldn’t have the slightest bit of trouble finding vehement attacks on the Catholic Church by Protestants with the click of the mouse.

You just won’t find that kind of frequency or connectivity to the demonic as it relates to Catholics scrutinizing Protestants. That is my point. Stop ignoring the facts.
 
Jubilarian said:
I know what I wrote. You just keep avoiding a Google search. I said you can find examples on the other side but they are rare and hard to find.
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Speaking now of frequency, let me say that I’ve been discussing theology on the Internet for 20+ years, and I’ve seen many very severe attacks on Protestantism. That’s why I find your claim dubious.
I wouldn’t have the slightest bit of trouble finding vehement attacks on the Catholic Church by Protestants with the click of the mouse.
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You just won’t find that kind of frequency or connectivity to the demonic as it relates to Catholics scrutinizing Protestants. That is my point. Stop ignoring the facts.
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I’m not ignoring the facts. I didn’t disagree that you can find attacks by Protestants. I was disagreeing about the kinds of attacks that are made by both sides. Both sides make severe attacks against the other. Just look at the Council of Trent’s anathemas.

And again, I wasn’t referring to the demonic accusations when I replied, but rather the harsh “whore of babylon” type of statements. That was one of the examples you gave. Saying that someone is anathema and teaches another gospel is just as severe and serious a charge.
 
Koineman said:
Speaking now of frequency, let me say that I’ve been discussing theology on the Internet for 20+ years, and I’ve seen many very severe attacks on Protestantism. That’s why I find your claim dubious.

I’m not ignoring the facts. I didn’t disagree that you can find attacks by Protestants. I was disagreeing about the kinds of attacks that are made by both sides. Both sides make severe attacks against the other. Just look at the Council of Trent’s anathemas.

And again, I wasn’t referring to the demonic accusations when I replied, but rather the harsh “whore of babylon” type of statements. That was one of the examples you gave. Saying that someone is anathema and teaches another gospel is just as severe and serious a charge.
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Someone immersed in theology as you claim would know that the “Whore Of Babylon” statement directed at Catholics typically has a demonic association. And again, you keep going back to a Catholic priest that says Protestantism has, “another Gospel.” One example. Could you find hundreds of examples like that with the click of a mouse? The answer is no.

Yes, both sides are capable of attacks but the severity and frequency is not on the Catholic end. Even here on a Catholic forum you would be hard pressed to find Catholics calling Protestant churches demonic. Yet, Protestant threads and blogs rant continually about how evil “Romanism” is.

When debating, we must go with what occurs on the average, not a select few examples that support your position.
 
Koineman said:
First, all Protestants will agree on the gospel as described by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.
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But that’s not all they believe to be the Gospel, that’s the point.
Second, this is a whole different subject. The thing that brought all this up was the question of whether people from both camps resort to making false attacks. The statement I originally responded to was this: “Yes, the constant erroneous attacks on the Catholic Church are annoying.”
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Well, they are annoying. And they come from all sides. There’s only one Catholic Church but hundreds if not thousands of Protestant denominations and sects. The Church is the elephant in the room that they all try to push out of the way or ignore.
Those are not issues pertaining directly to the actual gospel message, i.e., that Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead 3 days later, and ascended to heaven.
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Oh but for many Protestants they are part of the Gospel message–indeed integral to it. That’s what I’m saying. I should know. I had close contact with all the ones I mentioned.
 
And I have yet to be handed a tract published by the Catholic Church on the evils of Protestantism.
 
Jubilarian said:
Someone immersed in theology as you claim would know that the “Whore Of Babylon” statement directed at Catholics typically has a demonic association. And again, you keep going back to a Catholic priest that says Protestantism has, “another Gospel.” One example. Could you find hundreds of examples like that with the click of a mouse? The answer is no.

Yes, both sides are capable of attacks but the severity and frequency is not on the Catholic end. Even here on a Catholic forum you would be hard pressed to find Catholics calling Protestant churches demonic. Yet, Protestant threads and blogs rant continually about how evil “Romanism” is.

When debating, we must go with what occurs on the average, not a select few examples that support your position.
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Again–and for the last time, since this is getting nowhere–I was addressing the severity as well as the frequency. I pointed out the priest’s blog as an example of severity; I referred to my experience on the Internet over the past 20 or so years to show frequency. So I’m sorry, but I still find your claim to be highly questionable and hence far from convincing. It might be convincing to someone who has been on the Internet for a short time, but not to me.

In any case, this line of discussion is pointless and unprofitable. It’s the equivalent of this: “You’re worse than we are!”

“Are not!”

“Are too!”

What a waste of time.
 
Koineman said:
Again–and for the last time, since this is getting nowhere–I was addressing the severity as well as the frequency. I pointed out the priest’s blog as an example of severity; I referred to my experience on the Internet over the past 20 or so years to show frequency. So I’m sorry, but I still find your claim to be highly questionable and hence far from convincing. It might be convincing to someone who has been on the Internet for a short time, but not to me.

In any case, this line of discussion is pointless and unprofitable. It’s the equivalent of this: “You’re worse than we are!”

“Are not!”

“Are too!”

What a waste of time.
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Take the severity challenge. I am tired of you dodging the real issue. Go to Google. Type in something like," Catholic Church evil". Then magically see what appears. Then type in ," Protestant churches evil". Guess what? You will find almost no Catholics making claims that Protestant churches are evil, demonic etc… However, even with your second search you will find websites similar to what was in your first search. You can’t get away from it.

You simply refuse to admit that the severity and frequency of attacks comes from Protestants towards Catholics. Instead, you want to stomp your feet while clinging to one example.
 
Della said:
But that’s not all they believe to be the Gospel, that’s the point.
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Can you show that the vast majority of Protestant churches clearly state that the gospel message contains one or more of the doctrines previously listed, like OSAS? In other words, that if one of those doctrines is NOT preached as part of the gospel message, then that message is another gospel? because if you can’t show that most of them do, then you can’t prove this widespread variety of gospels that you folks are asserting here.

In all my time in many different Protestant churches, from Baptist to Presbyterian to nondenominational (which are essentially Baptist) to Lutheran, I have rarely seen any of the previously mentioned doctrines taught as being a necessary part of the gospel message. They are often taught as important doctrines, to be sure, but that’s not the same as saying they are part of the gospel message itself.

The only example I can think of that I have actually come across is the rare occurrence of certain Calvinists who teach that the doctrines of grace–i.e., the 5 Points of Calvinism–are the Gospel itself. But like I said, that is rare and in only some extreme cases.
 
Jubilarian said:
Take the severity challenge. I am tired of you dodging the real issue. Go to Google. Type in something like," Catholic Church evil". Then magically see what appears. Then type in ," Protestant churches evil". Guess what? You will find almost no Catholics making claims that Protestant churches are evil, demonic etc… However, even with your second search you will find websites similar to what was in your first search. You can’t get away from it.

You simply refuse to admit that the severity and frequency of attacks comes from Protestants towards Catholics. Instead, you want to stomp your feet while clinging to one example.
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You can add here that Lutherans confess the pope as anti-Christ:

Of the Antichrist
43.As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

Did you read that…the pope and his dominion…meaning us catholics too are anti-Christ.
 
Koineman said:
Can you show that the vast majority of Protestant churches clearly state that the gospel message contains one or more of the doctrines previously listed, like OSAS? In other words, that if one of those doctrines is NOT preached as part of the gospel message, then that message is another gospel? because if you can’t show that most of them do, then you can’t prove this widespread variety of gospels that you folks are asserting here.

In all my time in many different Protestant churches, from Baptist to Presbyterian to nondenominational (which are essentially Baptist) to Lutheran, I have rarely seen any of the previously mentioned doctrines taught as being a necessary part of the gospel message. They are often taught as important doctrines, to be sure, but that’s not the same as saying they are part of the gospel message itself.

The only example I can think of that I have actually come across is the rare occurrence of certain Calvinists who teach that the doctrines of grace–i.e., the 5 Points of Calvinism–are the Gospel itself. But like I said, that is rare and in only some extreme cases.
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A lot of preaching is prefaced by the phrase “the Bible says” and “the Lord/God says” with no disclaimer that this is just the speakers opinion, as valid as any other.
 
Sit down have a cup of tea.Call your mother.Take your socks off. Stretch. All Protestants are going to Hell.Relax.Dont worry Jesus is sending them there.
 
Jubilarian said:
I’m a Catholic revert. For at least 15 years I was into Fundamentalism and dabbled with many Protestant denominations. I’m a practicing Catholic (again) for a few years now.

I’m not sure that I would call it anger, but I have developed some degree of resentment towards Protestantism that I need to work through. Frustration is another emotion. Whether you are a cradle Catholic or a revert, do you have any of the same feelings?

The “its not in the bible” mantra from Protestants is tiresome as well. Sometimes I can’t get a good Catholic AM/FM radio station and I end up listening to my old Protestant radio station as a supplement and that fuels my discontent. Any understanding on that too?
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I understand you very well. My mummy has some fundamentalist/ protestant/ evangelical friends and I have to admit that every thing they say is just based upon the “Jesus-loves-you-principle”. We have also joined severy services in order to find out how “the others” do it, and we all came to the conclusion that there was just not any theological content within. Their service is based on personal experience with Jesus, or someone standing in front of the others and talking bout his illumination, or wittnessing some strange marvel… I dont know, I have not ever heard a Baptist/ Methodist/ Puritan whatsoever talking about the holy gospel according to Mth or Lk or Jhn or Mrk… Its always the same “-and-then-all-of-a-sudden-this-marvellous-light-filled-me-and-I-felt-Salvation” talks. Do you agree?

Furthermore, what I really appreciate about our catholic communit is that one does have a good balance between rules and freedom. If I dont want to hang out with the people there, I don`t have to. I can spend times with my friends. Nevertheless, that does not mean that I will bale on my mass duty or that I will eat meat on a friday and that I will end up with some dude having a ONS after a party. But in evangelical circles, the whole life takes place within the church and that would really annoy me. yeaa

What is it that gives you a hard time about Protestants etc…?
 
SyroMalankara said:
Originally Posted by Koineman
Can you show that the vast majority of Protestant churches clearly state that the gospel message contains one or more of the doctrines previously listed, like OSAS? In other words, that if one of those doctrines is NOT preached as part of the gospel message, then that message is another gospel? because if you can’t show that most of them do, then you can’t prove this widespread variety of gospels that you folks are asserting here.
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Sorry, I don’t see how this answers my question.
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Koineman said:
In all my time in many different Protestant churches, from Baptist to Presbyterian to nondenominational (which are essentially Baptist) to Lutheran, I have rarely seen any of the previously mentioned doctrines taught as being a necessary part of the gospel message. They are often taught as important doctrines, to be sure, but that’s not the same as saying they are part of the gospel message itself.
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If you are being taught doctrines that are not part of the Gospel message then what does that tell you?
 
Koineman said:
That not all true doctrines are parts of the gospel message? 🤷
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And Pilate asked," What is truth?" What I find perplexing about Protestantim is that the “church” as used by Protestants, is not a church of consistency , and it is filled with conflicting doctrines. How and why one would continually rationalise this fact I will never understand.
 
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