Frustrations with friendships and staying single

[DarkLight]

I’m single. I want to be single - I have absolutely no interest in settling down and being married. I don’t want kids and the thought of having sex with a man physically repulses me (as it always has). The trouble is I’m at the age where it seems all my friends are getting married. As I have mostly male friends, that means I’m rapidly becoming an awkward problem to be handled. Most women don’t seem to want their boyfriends or husbands to have very close female friends. Even female friends, it seems once they get a boyfriend or get married they don’t want to spend much time with single friends. Plus when they marry they start having kids and suddenly everything’s so centered around the children there’s no time for any friends unless it’s on a “playdate” or something else with another mother.

I’m just left feeling like I’m second-class around here. Like I can’t develop deep, meaningful relationships because the sort of intimacy I want is only ok within marriage. I know I couldn’t marry, I couldn’t provide (and don’t desire) the physical intimacy. But I’m left feeling like I can only have shallow relationships otherwise. I can’t bear to develop relationships anymore knowing I could be dumped at any moment for a wife who doesn’t like our relationship. To make matters worse, I’ve talked about SSA before, even though I haven’t acted on it since coming to the church, which means even men often aren’t comfortable with their wives being close friends with me.

I just feel like the price is too steep. I feel like the dignity of marriage means that people like me are relegated to being second-class, like our deep relationships only exist on the permission of a significant other who may not even want to get to know us. I don’t know what to do - I want relationships where I won’t be an awkward other, where I won’t have to worry that I’ll be tossed aside again. Where I won’t have to worry about my friends coming to me and saying “I’m sorry but my wife/husband/date isn’t comfortable with you anymore.” And I don’t know how I can get that.

I don’t even like living on my own. But what am I supposed to do? Adults aren’t supposed to have roommates or really close friends. And with the field I’m in practically everyone I meet is a man.

 

[MJJean]

Have you considered finding another Christian (male or female) who is either committed to being a lifelong single, is asexual, or who is gay/lesbian and also committed to chastiy to share your life with as dear friends and roommates? You can be close and intimate without being a married couple and without having sex.

The idea that adults don’t have close intimate friendships or live with each other is utter bunk. Plenty of adults have close friendships to help them through and many singles share housing to have companionship.

 

[MaryT777]

I’m divorced and met a wonderful man. We contemplated marriage but I decided I did not want to be married again. We have been roommates for 4 years now and he is 51 and I am 49. It does work.

Might be something to reconsider.
Mary.

 

[tawny]

Praying for your intentions.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’m divorced and met a wonderful man. We contemplated marriage but I decided I did not want to be married again. We have been roommates for 4 years now and he is 51 and I am 49. It does work.

Might be something to reconsider.
Mary.

Living together without marriage is not a good idea.

 

[Lorelei12]

Have you tried spending time with your friends AND their wives? As long as you are a friend to someone’s marriage, most wives probably won’t mind.

But, as difficult as it may be, try to understand that a lot of wives don’t feel it’s appropriate for their husbands to have “deep relationships” with other females. As far as I’m concerned, the deepest relationship my husband should have with another person is the one he has with me. I don’t care if he has female friends, but deep emotional intimacy? No.

It doesn’t mean you’re “second class”, however, you are not his wife. Your friends who put their wives’ feelings first are doing the right thing, especially if they are careful not to have a “deep relationship” with another female.

I’d suggest making a sincere effort to get to know your friends’ wives, and instead of seeing them as the enemies who are forcing you out of friendships, see them as someone who your friends have chosen to spend their lives and be happy with. As for the SSA, if that is something you struggle with, it is not information that you owe anyone.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m single. I want to be single - I have absolutely no interest in settling down and being married. I don’t want kids and the thought of having sex with a man physically repulses me (as it always has). The trouble is I’m at the age where it seems all my friends are getting married. As I have mostly male friends, that means I’m rapidly becoming an awkward problem to be handled. Most women don’t seem to want their boyfriends or husbands to have very close female friends. Even female friends, it seems once they get a boyfriend or get married they don’t want to spend much time with single friends. Plus when they marry they start having kids and suddenly everything’s so centered around the children there’s no time for any friends unless it’s on a “playdate” or something else with another mother.

I’m just left feeling like I’m second-class around here. Like I can’t develop deep, meaningful relationships because the sort of intimacy I want is only ok within marriage. I know I couldn’t marry, I couldn’t provide (and don’t desire) the physical intimacy. But I’m left feeling like I can only have shallow relationships otherwise. I can’t bear to develop relationships anymore knowing I could be dumped at any moment for a wife who doesn’t like our relationship. To make matters worse, I’ve talked about SSA before, even though I haven’t acted on it since coming to the church, which means even men often aren’t comfortable with their wives being close friends with me.

I just feel like the price is too steep. I feel like the dignity of marriage means that people like me are relegated to being second-class, like our deep relationships only exist on the permission of a significant other who may not even want to get to know us. I don’t know what to do - I want relationships where I won’t be an awkward other, where I won’t have to worry that I’ll be tossed aside again. Where I won’t have to worry about my friends coming to me and saying “I’m sorry but my wife/husband/date isn’t comfortable with you anymore.” And I don’t know how I can get that.

I don’t even like living on my own. But what am I supposed to do? Adults aren’t supposed to have roommates or really close friends. And with the field I’m in practically everyone I meet is a man.

I don’t understand what it is you want. Do you want the world to change to fit your exceptions or do you want to change to fit the world?

 

[Xantippe]

I’m single. I want to be single - I have absolutely no interest in settling down and being married. I don’t want kids and the thought of having sex with a man physically repulses me (as it always has).

**When you have the resources to deal with this, could you do some therapy focused on this? Or do you suspect you may have same sex attraction or be asexual? * Normally, if you were happy as you were, I’d encourage you to stay as you are, but you did have a fairly unusual upbringing, and you might find that with therapy, you become more open to marriage. ***

The trouble is I’m at the age where it seems all my friends are getting married. As I have mostly male friends, that means I’m rapidly becoming an awkward problem to be handled. Most women don’t seem to want their boyfriends or husbands to have very close female friends. Even female friends, it seems once they get a boyfriend or get married they don’t want to spend much time with single friends. Plus when they marry they start having kids and suddenly everything’s so centered around the children there’s no time for any friends unless it’s on a “playdate” or something else with another mother.

**It might be helpful if you frankly explained to the girlfriend or wife your feelings about relationships and children.

Our local graduate community does a monthly potluck and it helps keep things from going 100% in the playdate direction you mention.

It’s also probably time to work harder on your friendships with other women and to perhaps expand your age horizons. Women with little children can be particularly bad about only wanting to hang out with other mothers with children exactly their kids’ age and only talk about kid stuff. A woman who has raised her family already or has school age children is less likely to be that way.**

**Also, if there’s a mom you like, a walk at the zoo or just a plain old walk is a great way to enjoy adult conversation.
**

I’m just left feeling like I’m second-class around here. Like I can’t develop deep, meaningful relationships because the sort of intimacy I want is only ok within marriage. I know I couldn’t marry, I couldn’t provide (and don’t desire) the physical intimacy. But I’m left feeling like I can only have shallow relationships otherwise.

**Nah, it’s just a stage of life. **

I can’t bear to develop relationships anymore knowing I could be dumped at any moment for a wife who doesn’t like our relationship. To make matters worse, I’ve talked about SSA before, even though I haven’t acted on it since coming to the church, which means even men often aren’t comfortable with their wives being close friends with me.

**Oh dear. That covers all the bases, then, doesn’t it?

If you’re starting school elsewhere soon, that gives you a fresh start.**

I just feel like the price is too steep. I feel like the dignity of marriage means that people like me are relegated to being second-class, like our deep relationships only exist on the permission of a significant other who may not even want to get to know us. I don’t know what to do - I want relationships where I won’t be an awkward other, where I won’t have to worry that I’ll be tossed aside again. Where I won’t have to worry about my friends coming to me and saying “I’m sorry but my wife/husband/date isn’t comfortable with you anymore.” And I don’t know how I can get that.

**This is a really tough one. Anytime you’re driving in the left-hand lane when everybody else is in the right-hand lane, there are going to be difficulties and collisions.
**

I don’t even like living on my own. But what am I supposed to do? Adults aren’t supposed to have roommates or really close friends. And with the field I’m in practically everyone I meet is a man.

**You’re still in the young adult phase where it’s OK to have roommates, but it certainly is true that as you get older, it’s going to look weirder.

I don’t know if this has any appeal for you, but it isn’t unknown for families to seek out responsible roommates for adults with problems who can’t live by themselves.

There’s also the faculty in residence system (or chaplain in residence at some colleges), which may be your cup of tea. **

 

[JorduSpeaks]

I’m single. I want to be single - I have absolutely no interest in settling down and being married. I don’t want kids and the thought of having sex with a man physically repulses me (as it always has). The trouble is I’m at the age where it seems all my friends are getting married. As I have mostly male friends, that means I’m rapidly becoming an awkward problem to be handled. Most women don’t seem to want their boyfriends or husbands to have very close female friends. Even female friends, it seems once they get a boyfriend or get married they don’t want to spend much time with single friends. Plus when they marry they start having kids and suddenly everything’s so centered around the children there’s no time for any friends unless it’s on a “playdate” or something else with another mother.

I’m single. I DON’T want to be single. I want kids, and the idea of having sex with a woman seems pretty fantastic to me. Nevertheless, I understand what it feels like when all your friends are getting married and having children. I had to stop going to my young adult faith and fellowship group for a while because it turned into the “married people club”, and all everyone wanted to talk about was what they did on their honeymoon, or what their children are doing in school, etc. Personally, I think it’s a little rude to carry on a conversation in front of a person who can’t possibly contribute, but I seemed to be in the minority.

One thing that I’ve found helpful is developing a social hobby. This can help you to establish a group of friends that can function as a relatively stable and resilient social network. The best part is that, since the focus is on the hobby, even when one of your friends gets married, they are less likely to talk about their marital problems. There’s a common language in place that won’t make you uncomfortable. Additionally, since it’s a group setting, your friends’ spouses won’t feel as threatened by your presence.

I’ve got a tabletop board gaming group, and I also play some miniatures games and roleplaying games. If that sort of thing interests you, check out your local gaming stores and see what they have to offer. There are lots of other communal hobbies out there, but that’s the one that’s worked the best for me.

 

[Naskor]

I’m single. I DON’T want to be single. I want kids, and the idea of having sex with a woman seems pretty fantastic to me. Nevertheless, I understand what it feels like when all your friends are getting married and having children. I had to stop going to my young adult faith and fellowship group for a while because it turned into the “married people club”, and all everyone wanted to talk about was what they did on their honeymoon, or what their children are doing in school, etc. Personally, I think it’s a little rude to carry on a conversation in front of a person who can’t possibly contribute, but I seemed to be in the minority.

One thing that I’ve found helpful is developing a social hobby. This can help you to establish a group of friends that can function as a relatively stable and resilient social network. The best part is that, since the focus is on the hobby, even when one of your friends gets married, they are less likely to talk about their marital problems. There’s a common language in place that won’t make you uncomfortable. Additionally, since it’s a group setting, your friends’ spouses won’t feel as threatened by your presence.

I’ve got a tabletop board gaming group, and I also play some miniatures games and roleplaying games. If that sort of thing interests you, check out your local gaming stores and see what they have to offer. There are lots of other communal hobbies out there, but that’s the one that’s worked the best for me.

There is great wisdom and advice in this post!

 

[3DOCTORS]

The 20s and 30s are the hardest. If you can survive those, you may find that you’ll eventually wind up with a circle of single friends. Most of mine are other women and most of us are trying to make ends meet financially - that seems more of a topic of conversation than relationships these days! And after awhile, it gets easier again to be around married people with or without kids - especially in a group of mixed marrieds and singles.

Finding an activity is a good thing - for me, the geekier the better - I love the camaraderie of geeks like me. :grouphug: And geeky interests give lots of details to obsessively chatter about, LOL. But it can be anything you like.

Threads like this are why I suggested to CAF that singles need their own Forum within Family Life, but it’s not possible at this time. I think we need to support one another - it’s not all about trying to meet people; there are many issues in the single life. But if I can survive them, probably anyone can, based on how anguished I used to be and am no longer.

 

[MaryT777]

Living together without marriage is not a good idea.

It’s worked for us but we were committed to remain chaste and keep the relationship
as roommates only. Nothing more.
Mary.

 

[1ke]

part of the problem is the idea of BFFs being out there in Hollywood and female oriented novels/programming.

The truth is that close, lifelong friendships that involve people hanging out together a lot are rare, and require a lot of work to maintain. The older we get the more we will have “for a time” friends rather than “forever” friends. At work, through school, through church, or through activities we participate in we will meet people that will come and go in our lives. And as we age there is less free time for just hanging out whether it is due to family or work commitments.

explore the idea that you have some expectations about friendships in adulthood that really are not very realistic, at least in my experience.

 

[underacloud]

part of the problem is the idea of BFFs being out there in Hollywood and female oriented novels/programming.

The truth is that close, lifelong friendships that involve people hanging out together a lot are rare, and require a lot of work to maintain. The older we get the more we will have “for a time” friends rather than “forever” friends. At work, through school, through church, or through activities we participate in we will meet people that will come and go in our lives. And as we age there is less free time for just hanging out whether it is due to family or work commitments.

explore the idea that you have some expectations about friendships in adulthood that really are not very realistic, at least in my experience.

Well said.

Where I won’t have to worry about my friends coming to me and saying “I’m sorry but my wife/husband/date isn’t comfortable with you anymore.” And I don’t know how I can get that.

This doesn’t seem normal to me, that people feel the need to say this to you. It suggests that you are grossly overstepping normal boundaries.

I think your expectations are unrealistic. But as others have suggested, if you can find people of a similar ilk, you may be able to have deeper friendships with them than with the kinds of friends you currently have.

You may, with appropriate spiritual direction, consider a Josephite marriage, if you met a male who shared similar views towards sex but wanted deeper intimacy with someone. There would always be the risk that the man would change his mind on sex, and you would be bound to fulfil the marriage debt, so there would be some risk in taking this approach that it will not workl out exactly as you plan.

 

[DarkLight]

I guess I feel like “normal” boundaries around here are that men and women can’t be more than very casual friends, and shouldn’t see each other at all outside of group settings. Even so much as going out to coffee or watching a movie with a male friend is too much for most women to be comfortable with - really anything more than seeing each other at church on occasion is too much. Men and women just aren’t supposed to be real friends - you’re either together or barely care about each other. No in-between.

I get the idea of “for a time” friendships, but you can’t develop trust and intimacy of any sort quickly. That sort of thing takes years. So you end up with people like me, no family, - when something goes wrong, when you need a shoulder to cry on, where do you go? Where do you go when you just need someone to talk to that you can trust?

Maybe my ideas are “not realistic”, but I don’t feel like I can live and be sane with what I have. I couldn’t submit myself to a marriage where I would hate the very act that seals it. I can’t seem to find and maintain friendships without being seen as a threat one way or another. But I just don’t think I can live all by myself, or with just seeing people in shallow contexts.

I wish I had real brothers and sisters, blood relatives. That’s the sort of relationship I want. I just can’t have it because I didn’t get lucky enough to get some, and it doesn’t seem to be ok or even possible to develop that sort of relationship with anyone else without everyone seeing it as sexual.

 

[underacloud]

I guess I feel like “normal” boundaries around here are that men and women can’t be more than very casual friends, and shouldn’t see each other at all outside of group settings. Even so much as going out to coffee or watching a movie with a male friend is too much for most women to be comfortable with - really anything more than seeing each other at church on occasion is too much. Men and women just aren’t supposed to be real friends - you’re either together or barely care about each other. No in-between.

Do you understand why this is the case? Ordinarily, men and women who form close emotional bonds will be more tempted towards physical intimacy. Thus, it is a situation that married people are to avoid.

Perhaps because you don’t feel physically attracted towards men this is hard to understand. But these “normal” boundaries exist for very good reasons.

I couldn’t submit myself to a marriage where I would hate the very act that seals it.

Thus the suggesting of considering a Josephite marriage (where the couple agrees by mutual consent to not have sex). There is a risk, as I mentioned, that the man might change his mind later, but it is one option for someone in your situation.

 

[Xantippe]

I suspect that the relative time commitment enters into this.

A married man (if he is doing his job) and particularly a father has a lot of demands on his time at home. If he is spending large amounts of time hanging out with a single female friend (or really other kind of friend) in his non-work time, it’s likely that he’s being unfair to his wife and children. Every minute that he’s hanging out with you is a minute he’s not doing housework, doing home maintenance, relieving his wife after a long day with little kids, or reading a story with his children. When you’ve got little kids, one of the most bitterly resented forms of “cheating” is cheating with regard to time. (Years ago, when my husband and I were new parents, I remember how I’d feel at the end of a long day at home alone with the baby. I’d have dinner all ready and I’d get a phone call from my husband, just around the time I expected him to walk through the door. He’d be calling to say that he’d gotten talking with a colleague at work and he’d be home in another hour and fifteen minutes, that being the length of his commute at the time. Gah!!! And those were middle aged male colleagues.)

I think Eve Tushnet is a good person for you to have a look at–she writes a lot about friendship, same sex attraction, etc. You might even want to email her.

Oh, and here’s another thing we have locally–there is a Protestant and Catholic college women’s book group that draws graduate students, wives of graduate students, faculty, wives of faculty, etc. to a group discussion of various Christian classics as well as just plain social events. I’m going to get to it one of these days. They read Dorothy Sayer’s Gaudy Night together a year or two ago, which must have been amazing. If you could find or found something like that, it could be amazing.

 

[DarkLight]

There’s other stuff too…I feel like even for being 26 half the time people act like it’s still high school. Most people, especially Christians, treat me as weird for not looking for a boyfriend or wanting one. I do get asked out, I’ve always said no. But it seems so often, there must be some explanation in their minds why I’m not at my age searching for a husband. So many of the girls too seem so young to me, men my age dating girls barely out of high school.

I understand that I’m not attracted to men. But I also…I’ve talked to men I trust, and that they aren’t interested in me even if I were, even after we have been together and alone for some time. Why would marriage change that? It seems odd to go from that men and women can form attractions to each other, to that they must. And then how is it better for me to be friends with women, then, knowing I could be attracted to them? It all seems so very arbitrary, so very much as though we were dogs unable to refrain from breeding if not kept apart.

I don’t know. I just know I was miserable living alone, or with people I didn’t like as friends. It led to a lot of sleepless nights, when I just wanted someone to talk to. A one-on-one conversation, not just chatting over a game board, something that really does have some emotional intimacy. To give up eros, I don’t want to have to give up all the earthly loves.

 

[Xantippe]

There’s other stuff too…I feel like even for being 26 half the time people act like it’s still high school. Most people, especially Christians, treat me as weird for not looking for a boyfriend or wanting one. I do get asked out, I’ve always said no. But it seems so often, there must be some explanation in their minds why I’m not at my age searching for a husband. So many of the girls too seem so young to me, men my age dating girls barely out of high school.

I understand that I’m not attracted to men. But I also…I’ve talked to men I trust, and that they aren’t interested in me even if I were, even after we have been together and alone for some time. Why would marriage change that? It seems odd to go from that men and women can form attractions to each other, to that they must. And then how is it better for me to be friends with women, then, knowing I could be attracted to them? It all seems so very arbitrary, so very much as though we were dogs unable to refrain from breeding if not kept apart.

I don’t know. I just know I was miserable living alone, or with people I didn’t like as friends. It led to a lot of sleepless nights, when I just wanted someone to talk to. A one-on-one conversation, not just chatting over a game board, something that really does have some emotional intimacy. To give up eros, I don’t want to have to give up all the earthly loves./QUOT

Not all men marry. There are always going to be some that are gay, asexual, or just very eccentric. So you won’t be left entirely alone even if you stick to just male friends.

That aside, I would suggest learning how to be friends with women, even if it’s women that you are actually attracted to. I think that can be a developmental thing. I remember when I was in college, my friends that I’d talk and talk to would be primarily guys, but as time has passed, my deeper in-real-life friendships are all with women. Not that it has to be that way, but there is a real possibility that you will eventually learn to be friends with women. Half the planet consists of women, after all–there are definitely some out there that you have something in common with.

 

[DarkLight]

Not all men marry. There are always going to be some that are gay, asexual, or just very eccentric. So you won’t be left entirely alone even if you stick to just male friends.

That aside, I would suggest learning how to be friends with women, even if it’s women that you are actually attracted to. I think that can be a developmental thing. I remember when I was in college, my friends that I’d talk and talk to would be primarily guys, but as time has passed, my deeper in-real-life friendships are all with women. Not that it has to be that way, but there is a real possibility that you will eventually learn to be friends with women. Half the planet consists of women, after all–there are definitely some out there that you have something in common with.

I think some of it has been that I’ve just had terrible luck. I spent most of my time in grad school, maybe 30 grad students total, and I was the only woman. Same thing with the evangelism organization on campus I belonged to, I was the only woman that attended regularly. Even our daily mass group, I was the only young woman who attended. It all seems to have been men, men, and more men. It’s not that I have problems exactly connecting with women as much as I just seem to have spent the last several years in environments that seem to be me and a bunch of men!