Frustrations with friendships and staying single

[JorduSpeaks]

That aside, I would suggest learning how to be friends with women, even if it’s women that you are actually attracted to.

Well, I probably wouldn’t go that far. As difficult as living alone can be, trying to maintain a platonic relationship with a person whom you are attracted to is even tougher.

 

[underacloud]

But I also…I’ve talked to men I trust, and that they aren’t interested in me even if I were, even after we have been together and alone for some time. Why would marriage change that?

It is naive to assume men aren’t sexually attracted to you, even if they say they aren’t. And it seems that their wives are picking up on this. You need to learn to respect the intimacy - both physical and emotional - that a married man owes to his wife above all others.

Sorry, but marriage changes things.

It also happens to change the intimacy of other friendships too, not just male-female ones. I am less intimate with my old friends now than I was before. This may be largely attributed to time issues, as Xantippe raised, but there is also a natural shift for most married people towards a greater intimacy with their spouse and lesser intimacy with friends. Same can be said of family relations - for most people, marriage trumps (or should trump) family bonds and your spouse is suddenly the most important person in your life, while your parents, siblings, etc are somewhat relegated (for want of a better word). Marriage tends to effect a lot of changes, which can of course be hard on certain people who feel more excluded and isolated.

Many years ago I was best man at my mates wedding. In his speech he referred to his new bride as his “best friend”. For just a moment I thought - hang on, that used to be me!

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I probably wouldn’t go that far. As difficult as living alone can be, trying to maintain a platonic relationship with a person whom you are attracted to is even tougher.

Sorry for the grammar. To be clearer, I wanted to say, “Even if you are entirely sexually attracted to women, it may be better for you to try to make friends with women.” There’s certainly not a lot of future for DarkLight in deep friendships with married men, whereas it’s quite common for women to have emotionally very satisfying platonic relationships with each other.

(By the way, quite a lot of women have at least some degree of same sex attraction. That’s probably one of the reason why the women’s magazines almost invariably put women on their covers–women have a strong visual response to female beauty.)

 

[Xantippe]

It is naive to assume men aren’t sexually attracted to you, even if they say they aren’t.

Yep.

And it seems that their wives are picking up on this. You need to learn to respect the intimacy - both physical and emotional - that a married man owes to his wife above all others.

Sorry, but marriage changes things.

**Yep.

Even if the friendship is snow white pure, it’s unfair to 1) draw a man away from his family, even just for platonic chat and 2) provide him with a perfect woman to compare his wife to unfavorably. You are always sweet, fun, understanding, intellectual and well-groomed–his wife wants him to change diapers and could stand to lose a few pounds and shave her legs more than once a month. **

It also happens to change the intimacy of other friendships too, not just male-female ones. I am less intimate with my old friends now than I was before. This may be largely attributed to time issues, as Xantippe raised, but there is also a natural shift for most married people towards a greater intimacy with their spouse and lesser intimacy with friends. Same can be said of family relations - for most people, marriage trumps (or should trump) family bonds and your spouse is suddenly the most important person in your life, while your parents, siblings, etc are somewhat relegated (for want of a better word). Marriage tends to effect a lot of changes, which can of course be hard on certain people who feel more excluded and isolated.

**I’ve had a number of very strong friendships with other women develop over the last decade, but it’s very rare that that encroaches on “family time.” **

Many years ago I was best man at my mates wedding. In his speech he referred to his new bride as his “best friend”. For just a moment I thought - hang on, that used to be me!

Funny! Sad!

 

[DarkLight]

It is naive to assume men aren’t sexually attracted to you, even if they say they aren’t. And it seems that their wives are picking up on this. You need to learn to respect the intimacy - both physical and emotional - that a married man owes to his wife above all others.

Honestly, I’ve actually had my best luck with men who are already married. Seems those who have been married a few years are the ones most relaxed about grabbing coffee sometime or something, without their wives minding. I’ve generally at least been introduced and had a conversation or two with the wife at that point.

The real issue seems to be when the unmarried ones start wanting to date. Suddenly I go from being a perfectly innocent friendship to a dirty little secret. Being introduced to a new girlfriend with strict instructions to never let on that we’re more than casual acquaintances. Generally finding that guys act like they can’t have female friends lest their brand-new girlfriends think they’re seeing another woman on the side. Especially when they’re seeing younger girls, that seems to be the worst time.

(Also, most of the guys I know think that men who can’t admit when they’re attracted to a woman aren’t mature enough to be married. It usually seems to be women rather than men who think that way.)

 

[DarkLight]

As a side note, I have had friendships where the guy developed feelings. I’ve even had one I had to cut off because I realized that it was going in a way that wasn’t appropriate or respectful of the marriage. But even if a guy doesn’t admit it, you can usually tell when a man is attracted or otherwise pushing it. And for a guy who’s already married I would of course take the time to know his wife.

I think a lot of it is what I mentioned last post - I feel like in most cases I’m not even getting set aside for a wife, but for a new girlfriend. Actually, come to think of it, I can think of only the one case where a married man had a problem. I feel like the men I got to know after they were married have been better and stronger relationships, and I haven’t had any issues with the wife. It’s the girlfriend they’ve known for a month or two who’s suspicious of the guy having a woman in his life and assumes he’s not ready to commit because he’s still “seeing another women.” And that I don’t like - especially because I feel like I never had a chance.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I guess I feel like “normal” boundaries around here are that men and women can’t be more than very casual friends, and shouldn’t see each other at all outside of group settings. Even so much as going out to coffee or watching a movie with a male friend is too much for most women to be comfortable with - really anything more than seeing each other at church on occasion is too much. Men and women just aren’t supposed to be real friends - you’re either together or barely care about each other. No in-between.

I get the idea of “for a time” friendships, but you can’t develop trust and intimacy of any sort quickly. That sort of thing takes years. So you end up with people like me, no family, - when something goes wrong, when you need a shoulder to cry on, where do you go? Where do you go when you just need someone to talk to that you can trust?

Maybe my ideas are “not realistic”, but I don’t feel like I can live and be sane with what I have. I couldn’t submit myself to a marriage where I would hate the very act that seals it. I can’t seem to find and maintain friendships without being seen as a threat one way or another. But I just don’t think I can live all by myself, or with just seeing people in shallow contexts.

I wish I had real brothers and sisters, blood relatives. That’s the sort of relationship I want. I just can’t have it because I didn’t get lucky enough to get some, and it doesn’t seem to be ok or even possible to develop that sort of relationship with anyone else without everyone seeing it as sexual.

I’ve always thought it’d be cool if only children could legally adopt or be adopted by others as siblings! I get what you’re saying. Don’t know if it’d work out in reality, but hey, a wish is a wish so why not.

Some of my deeper friendships I actually made in the setting of support groups for people going through various life stresses - or on retreats or at church groups that had a common theme to spark conversation and interest. Of the former, some did drift apart, some remained. There is a bit of risk in that if you meet people in a support group for a problem, the friendship may not be able to round out beyond the problem-focused context. But sometimes they can. Another risk is that the person(s) you meet may be too wounded and a drain on your energies - the sort you may have to pray for but distance from.

Something more generalized like a Bible study group or prayer group might be intimate enough to go beyond the superficial, yet not such a risk of meeting dysfunctional people.

It’s hard when we really need a friend and want one - or when we’d like to date - or anything like that that we can’t force to happen. The longer we go, the more it weighs on us and we can end up coming across as desperate or clingy. (I’m speaking for myself in the past.) At times it may even be wise to cultivate an enjoyment of solitary hobbies so that we can function either independently or with others. (Sometimes I probably like my solitary hobbies more than being with other people - at least it depends on my mood on a given day! .)

Just seek balance, and when you find it, seek to maintain it. That’ll help a lot.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

I think a lot of it is what I mentioned last post - I feel like in most cases I’m not even getting set aside for a wife, but for a new girlfriend. Actually, come to think of it, I can think of only the one case where a married man had a problem. I feel like the men I got to know after they were married have been better and stronger relationships, and I haven’t had any issues with the wife. It’s the girlfriend they’ve known for a month or two who’s suspicious of the guy having a woman in his life and assumes he’s not ready to commit because he’s still “seeing another women.” And that I don’t like - especially because I feel like I never had a chance.

Naturally, it varies from relationship to relationship, but it does make sense that a friend’s significant other might be more confident about her partner engaging in non-same-sex friendships after they’ve learned enough about them to be able to spot for red flags.

 

[Morwenna]

DarkLight:

Something like this?

The Brothers and Sisters of Charity is a Public Association of the Faithful founded by John Michael Talbot in 1980.

We are a Catholic-based community of celibate brothers, celibate sisters, singles who can marry, and families, called as a monastic and domestic spiritual family into deep love relationships with and in Jesus Christ. We share common work and recreation areas while retaining appropriate separate cloistered areas for each expression. Our primary founder is Jesus, our primary rule is Scripture, and love is our primary law.

The members of the monastic expression live at the Little Portion Hermitage in Berryville, AR (just outside of Eureka Springs) under a scripture rule, and under the leadership of our founder.

We also have an international ecumenical expression consisting of single men and women and families, living in their own homes and sharing the same Rule and Constitution with the monastic expression.

We are a radical community rediscovering the ancient roots of monastic life. The Brothers & Sisters of Charity, a canonical community of the Catholic Church, is an integrated monastic expression of celibate brothers, celibate sisters, families and singles, and a domestic expression of those who live throughout the world in their homes.

Website here:
littleportion.org/index.cfm?active=1

.

 

[DarkLight]

Naturally, it varies from relationship to relationship, but it does make sense that a friend’s significant other might be more confident about her partner engaging in non-same-sex friendships after they’ve learned enough about them to be able to spot for red flags.

Yeah. Still, it’s more frustrating because often the girlfriend isn’t even interested in getting to know you (which seems to be less of a problem with wives). It’s more of a social, reflexive level than anything you personally did. It’s just that I’ve found most conservative women in our society don’t seem to think their boyfriends can have female friends and not be cheating on them.

Of course, that does give me some hope that it’ll get better once everyone gets older. Especially as like I mentioned it seems mid to late 20’s guys are dating girls that are in the 19 to 21 range. It feels silly but having taught college classes it seems like there’s a world of difference in maturity even within the five years. (Especially after you’ve been through a few rounds of “help I don’t understand anything” from students who haven’t been to class or done any homework!)

DarkLight:

Something like this?

Website here:
littleportion.org/index.cfm?active=1

.

Thanks!

 

[underacloud]

The real issue seems to be when the unmarried ones start wanting to date. Suddenly I go from being a perfectly innocent friendship to a dirty little secret. Being introduced to a new girlfriend with strict instructions to never let on that we’re more than casual acquaintances. Generally finding that guys act like they can’t have female friends lest their brand-new girlfriends think they’re seeing another woman on the side. Especially when they’re seeing younger girls, that seems to be the worst time.

This is a major red flag. If these friends of your’s see you as a “dirty little secret”, it ought to reveal something to you about exactly how they view you and your friendship.

As a side note, I have had friendships where the guy developed feelings. I’ve even had one I had to cut off because I realized that it was going in a way that wasn’t appropriate or respectful of the marriage.

So you’ve had issues in the past with a married man. There you go. What more needs to be explained about the risks of married people having close opposite-sex friends?

But even if a guy doesn’t admit it, you can usually tell when a man is attracted or otherwise pushing it. And for a guy who’s already married I would of course take the time to know his wife.

No, you can’t tell. At least not until those feelings are developed and in the case of a married man, there is some level of damage done to their marriage as a result.

Frankly, between your single male friends who view you as a “dirty little secret” and married men overstepping boundaries, I think you need to reconsider the nature of these friendships you seem to think are so innoccent.

 

[PaulGH]

I’m single. I want to be single - I have absolutely no interest in settling down and being married. I don’t want kids and the thought of having sex with a man physically repulses me (as it always has). The trouble is I’m at the age where it seems all my friends are getting married. As I have mostly male friends, that means I’m rapidly becoming an awkward problem to be handled. Most women don’t seem to want their boyfriends or husbands to have very close female friends. Even female friends, it seems once they get a boyfriend or get married they don’t want to spend much time with single friends. Plus when they marry they start having kids and suddenly everything’s so centered around the children there’s no time for any friends unless it’s on a “playdate” or something else with another mother.

I’m just left feeling like I’m second-class around here. Like I can’t develop deep, meaningful relationships because the sort of intimacy I want is only ok within marriage. I know I couldn’t marry, I couldn’t provide (and don’t desire) the physical intimacy. But I’m left feeling like I can only have shallow relationships otherwise. I can’t bear to develop relationships anymore knowing I could be dumped at any moment for a wife who doesn’t like our relationship. To make matters worse, I’ve talked about SSA before, even though I haven’t acted on it since coming to the church, which means even men often aren’t comfortable with their wives being close friends with me.

I just feel like the price is too steep. I feel like the dignity of marriage means that people like me are relegated to being second-class, like our deep relationships only exist on the permission of a significant other who may not even want to get to know us. I don’t know what to do - I want relationships where I won’t be an awkward other, where I won’t have to worry that I’ll be tossed aside again. Where I won’t have to worry about my friends coming to me and saying “I’m sorry but my wife/husband/date isn’t comfortable with you anymore.” And I don’t know how I can get that.

I don’t even like living on my own. But what am I supposed to do? Adults aren’t supposed to have roommates or really close friends. And with the field I’m in practically everyone I meet is a man.

This is really tough. Even though I am a married man, in one way I know how you feel – because I find it very difficult to establish and maintain friendships with other men. I used to have close friends when I was younger, but now I truly can’t say that I have ANY close friends outside of my wife and other family members. I think that part of the problem is our society, where everyone is busy, and where shallow online friendships have become the norm, and where truly close, deep friendships are sometimes looked upon as weird or abnormal.

I will also say that as a married man, even if I had a single male friend who wanted to be close with me, that would be difficult for me. I certainly could be a friend to him, but my wife and children would have to come first, which of course is as it should be. And considering how busy my life is, that would mean that my hypothetical single friend really wouldn’t get very much of my time. I absolutely can see how that could be difficult for him, if most of his friends are married and he is the only one left who is single. (The song “No One Left to Run With Anymore” by the Allman Brothers Band comes to mind.)

Also, I would never have a close female friend, nor would I want my wife to have a close male friend. It’s not that my wife and I don’t trust each other, but we don’t think we should be putting ourselves into situations where temptation might sooner or later be present. And it seems to me that I would be disrespecting my wife if I had a close female friend.

So I do see how people like me are causing you a lot of difficulty in finding friends. But at the same time, I think that I am doing the right thing in putting my wife and family first, and in my wife and I not having close opposite-sex friends.

But for you, it’s a tough situation. I don’t really know what to tell you, other than hang in there. And I really think that just like a single person who takes a long time to find a spouse, but then eventually does find one; you also might take a long time to find a good friend. But then eventually you may find a great friend – maybe even someone who is in a similar situation as you.

 

[PaulGH]

Here are some of the lyrics to that Allman Brothers Band song that I mentioned. They sound just a little bit like your situation:

Everybody wants to know where Jimmy has gone
He left town, I doubt if he’s coming back home
Tony got a job, three kids and a lovely wife
Working at the Commerce Bank for the rest of his life

And there’s nobody left to run with anymore
There’s nobody left to do the crazy things
We used to do before
Nobody left to run with anymore

 

[DarkLight]

This is a major red flag. If these friends of your’s see you as a “dirty little secret”, it ought to reveal something to you about exactly how they view you and your friendship.

So you’ve had issues in the past with a married man. There you go. What more needs to be explained about the risks of married people having close opposite-sex friends?

No, you can’t tell. At least not until those feelings are developed and in the case of a married man, there is some level of damage done to their marriage as a result.

Frankly, between your single male friends who view you as a “dirty little secret” and married men overstepping boundaries, I think you need to reconsider the nature of these friendships you seem to think are so innoccent.

Fine, I’m a naive idiot who doesn’t have a single “real” friendship in the world, and the men I’ve been friends with for years are all horndogs who are secretly lusting after me and I’m just too stupid to notice it. Happy? Because that’s what I’m hearing here. Frankly I’m insulted on behalf of my male friends that you would presume they are liars like that.

Most of what I’m hearing from these guys is “You and I know what’s going on - but other people don’t and won’t. The girls I’m dating are conservative, they think men and women shouldn’t be friends, so we’ll have to pretend we’re not really friends. Because if we let on we’re friends everyone’s going to assume there’s something going on.” And that’s what I’m seeing as well - that most people assume that it’s not possible for men and women to be friends, no matter how uninterested they are in each other. That no matter how long a relationship has been with no option even of romance (even with both people single), the minute someone gets a partner they’re expected to never be alone with a female friend again. That’s what I’m hearing the expectations being of most women around here.

I feel like I’ve gotten very close to true brother/sister relationships. The trouble is because I’m not blood no one outside of me and my intimate friends will ever accept that. It’s not possible in most people’s minds for men and women to have a friendship because apparently men are too out of control for that. (Seriously, if what I’m hearing about men is true, why don’t we just get rid of them for being such babies? I could never respect a man who I would think of acting in the way people here seem to think men act. I wouldn’t even be comfortable working with such a man, knowing I could never have a real conversation without it somehow risking being a sex thing.)

And again, it really isn’t a problem relating to women as it just seems like the only place women congregate around here anymore is mommy groups. The married women I know don’t have hobbies and the only places they go are related to kids stuff. How am I supposed to make female friends, when it seems like everything is for mothers?

 

[underacloud]

I’m not tyring to paint you as an idiot, and I apologise if I give that impression. I just think that you don’t fully understand (none of us really do) the complex dynamics of male-female friendships. This is compounded by the fact that you don’t find these male friends attractive, so it may be harder to put yourself in the other person’s shoes.

Before I was married I had many female friends. I never tried to hide any of those friendships from my wife. Those female friends either became friends of my wife too, or the friendships naturally drifted away. My wife had male friends too, some of whom are now my friends and some of whom we rarely see any more. That’s just the natural way it goes. But I’ve never treated any friend as a “dirty little secret”. I cannot understand this attitude of these friends of yours.

As for the expectation to never be alone with a female friend again, I think this is a sensible approach, for reasons discussed. Not all men, but some men, will yes find you attractive and potentially overstep boundaries. You have admitted this has happened so hopefully can understand why it should be this way. And moreover, since males and females being alone together are known occasions for temptation, there is the potential to give scandal even if everything is completely above board.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m not tyring to paint you as an idiot, and I apologise if I give that impression. I just think that you don’t fully understand (none of us really do) the complex dynamics of male-female friendships. This is compounded by the fact that you don’t find these male friends attractive, so it may be harder to put yourself in the other person’s shoes.

Before I was married I had many female friends. I never tried to hide any of those friendships from my wife. Those female friends either became friends of my wife too, or the friendships naturally drifted away. My wife had male friends too, some of whom are now my friends and some of whom we rarely see any more. That’s just the natural way it goes. But I’ve never treated any friend as a “dirty little secret”. I cannot understand this attitude of these friends of yours.

As for the expectation to never be alone with a female friend again, I think this is a sensible approach, for reasons discussed. Not all men, but some men, will yes find you attractive and potentially overstep boundaries. You have admitted this has happened so hopefully can understand why it should be this way. And moeover, since males and females being alone together are known occasions for temptation, there is the potential to give scandal even if everything is completely above board.

It happened once. The man was not even someone who I would have counted as a friend. He was a coworker that I had chatted with a few times. Should I refrain from working with men because that might happen? That’s sort of how I feel here.

It’s just…most of the guys around here seem to think that having close female friends will prevent women from wanting to date them. So if we’ve gone out for coffee and a chat, I can’t say that because they’re afraid if they do, the other girl will think that he wants to date me. And unfortunately that sort of attitude seems to be pretty prevalent with the women they’re dating.

I find women attractive, but I still think I can maintain friendships with women. I’m not attracted to every woman out there, and even those that I am I can either decide to maintain it or be honest and break the relationship off.

As far as that goes, too…I talk about SSA because I know what it’s like to grow up with SSA and not have it talked about. I think my story holds some value in how not to handle the issue of SSA, because the group I grew up with handled it very badly. They didn’t talk about it except as some dirty thing, and I think that contributed to me sinning later on. I know that may not be a choice that’s helping me here, but it is at least somewhat important to me.

 

[underacloud]

It’s just…most of the guys around here seem to think that having close female friends will prevent women from wanting to date them. So if we’ve gone out for coffee and a chat, I can’t say that because they’re afraid if they do, the other girl will think that he wants to date me. And unfortunately that sort of attitude seems to be pretty prevalent with the women they’re dating.

That’s a shame. I find that attitude foreign and very strange. I’m not sure where you are, but in Australia I would say that sort of attitude just wouldn’t typically happen. Male-female friendships are common and nothing to hide from people you want to date. The friendships may change once people date and marry, as discussed, but the fact of having opposite-sex friends when you are single is not unusual or something to hide.

Still, cultural differences aside, it’s a shame your male friends didn’t choose to stick up for you. I hope you have luck finding friends who will stick with you.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

It sucks, but it seems to me that a lot of this is just the guy trying, in his own awkward way, to be considerate to the woman he just started dating. When you are just starting to get to know someone you’re attracted to, it can be difficult to realize that not everyone is attracted to that person, and so the specter of jealousy can arise. Aside from jealousy, there is the threat of scandal. If one of the girl’s friends sees you with her boyfriend, she is likely to assume that the guy is cheating on her. People like to assume the worst, and right or wrong, it can be a humiliating experience for the woman.

Personally, I feel like a lot of these fears are probably overblown, but people tend to walk on eggshells when they first start dating someone.

 

[CatholicSheila]

It’s also probably time to work harder on your friendships with other women and to perhaps expand your age horizons. Women with little children can be particularly bad about only wanting to hang out with other mothers with children exactly their kids’ age and only talk about kid stuff. A woman who has raised her family already or has school age children is less likely to be that way.

This comment about the age of your friends is a very good one.

I’m in a similiar situation to you DarkLight. SSA, but I won’t act on it. A man is not happening. I have to accept that and I have to find emotional intimacy outside of a marriage.

I’ve found that is not done with people my age. I’m 31. Everyone is either getting married, or married with young children, or constantly talking about relationships. I’m not interested and frankly, I don’t want to talk about it.

My closest friend is in her 40s. My next is in his late 50s. I’ve recently made a new friend, who I hope will be a close friendship, who is also in her mid 40s. They’re in a range of situations. One is single. One newly married, with kids and grandkids and step kids. One is married for 12 years with no kids. All of them are at a stage of their lives where their interests aren’t just their spouse/bf/gf and their kids. That gives them time for me. I’m polite with people my own age, but I have very little in common with them.

It’s not easy to find new friends, but if you find yourself in a situation where you can cultivate a friendship with someone older, then I fully recommend it.

For those friends who are newly married men,rather than going out for coffee, why don’t you suggest dinner? The 50’s year old man I’m close to - that friendship occurs in the home. His wife is present, which is exactly as it should be. It’s no less a deep friendship because of that. edit OK, now I’ve read the rest of the thread… your male friends seem like jerks. Hiding the friendship? Perhaps this is a cultural thing because as another poster mentioned, in Australia that isn’t something that really happens. At least, I’ve only known it to happen within certain protestant groups (AOG, Baptist… those sorts). But the point is, simply moving your expectations of the friendship (ie. dinner at home) won’t work.

I still suggest looking for friends in an older age bracket, as they are more comfortable in their skins (and so are their spouses!). And they have things to talk about other than the kids.

 

[dedo]

There is one other option. Consider finding a social activity that appeals to you, and form your friendships under the umbrella of the activity. By activity, I mean something with structure, not just a common interest.

For some reason, it seems to be socially acceptable for people to have personal interactions with others under the umbrella of an activity when the very same interaction would be completely inappropriate outside of the “umbrella”.

A couple examples include:

People who play golf get to have long chats over 3 - 4 hours during the game. I don’t currently play, but I hope to return to this sport one day. The interaction stays on the golf course. If the people conversed like that over coffee / email etc. (off the course) it would be considered inappropriate.

People who work in hospitals often consult each other at work about personal physical issues, and for some people,emotional issues. The conversations only occur in the hospital.
(in public areas, not the call room)

In a sport called Jiu-Jitsu, girls and guys will wrestle each other with the girls usually being the one to choose who to match up with. There is nothing sexual going on and spouses don’t seem to care. However the interaction only occurs in the academy. I don’t currently do this because of a neck injury, so if I keep training it will be mostly private (with a guy), but I told my wife about every girl that asked me to “roll” in class, and she could not have cared less.

So, I would say to focus on finding a social activity with structure that appeals to you, and make friends there. Keep the interactions inside the activity, and you should be fine.

Good luck.