FSSP and SSPX

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

The following words of St. Paul describes in accurate detail the problem with a lot of Bishops, Cardinals, and priest today…this is why the SSPX had to do what they did.
Galatians 1:6-10
6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. 7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Yes, they did sell out. When they told JPII to go fly a kite, they sold out. The SSPX made the same mistake that Fr. Leonard Feeney made - disobedience. Much better to make your point when you follow the rules and regulations of the Church you are trying to save from Herself.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Forgive my possible ignorance, but that doesn’t look like the usual vestment of a SSPX priest, who I’ve never seen wearing anything but the fiddleback style chasuble.

When you say Mass at St. Peter’s you wear their gothic chasuble … everyone does. When Father informed the sacristan that he would be offering the TLM, the sacristan provided an amice. Father wore his own maniple, stole, and cincture.

 

[Lormar]

Cradle,

I would think that my subsequent posts would answer your questions. In case not, yes, I spent years with the SSPX, and yes, I meant the Archbishop. I suppose I should also say that when I say he was wrong, I mean he was wrong in defying the man he claimed to acknowledge as the Pope.

Capiche?

 

[giuseppeTO]

And here’s one more thing. An FSSP priest told me that before Lefebvre died, he was reconciled to the Church by an FSSP priest. Don’t jump on me for this one. This is what I was told by an FSSP priest. Either he lied to me, or the SSPX isn’t telling their “faithful” something.

OK, I am wondering how in the world you can believe this.

1. No FSSP priest has probably been within 100 miles of Econe since 1988, except perhaps to repent and have the archbishop hear his confession.
2. The archbishop was not expected to die when he did so there was no mad rush to his bedside. There was an offer to visit by a Cardinal (friend of the Abp) but he did not make the trip because it was not though he was in any immediate danger of death.
3. So you believe that the Pope secretly deputized an FSSP priest with a mission to reconcile the archbishop. Then the Fr. Sargeant-at-arms lets an FSSP priest into Econe without hiding all the silverware? Somehow this priest presented the deal, heard his confession, and removed his excommmunication?
4. Then, amazingly, instead of publicizing the fact of the reconciliation so that perhaps more might follow in his footsteps, the Pope decided it was better to keep it a secret and let the world and the SSPX think otherwise?

And you believed this???

 

[giuseppeTO]

.

You and your brethren seem not to understand what I am trying to tell you. You do the Roman Catholic Church no good from where you are. You do not go outside the Church to save the Church.

Why don’t you come back in and help us instead of pontificating from your ivory towers?

Ah, my friend (I mean that sincerely), that is something I pray is accomplished very soon. I pray incessantly for it, and for our church. I pray also that when that reconciliation happens (everyone wants it so I certain it will happen), we can find that internal ecumenism that we so freely shower on our non-Catholic brothers.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Cradle,

Capiche?

capisco.

 

[Lormar]

OK, I am wondering how in the world you can believe this.

1. No FSSP priest has probably been within 100 miles of Econe since 1988, except perhaps to repent and have the archbishop hear his confession.
2. The archbishop was not expected to die when he did so there was no mad rush to his bedside. There was an offer to visit by a Cardinal (friend of the Abp) but he did not make the trip because it was not though he was in any immediate danger of death.
3. So you believe that the Pope secretly deputized an FSSP priest with a mission to reconcile the archbishop. Then the Fr. Sargeant-at-arms lets an FSSP priest into Econe without hiding all the silverware? Somehow this priest presented the deal, heard his confession, and removed his excommmunication?
4. Then, amazingly, instead of publicizing the fact of the reconciliation so that perhaps more might follow in his footsteps, the Pope decided it was better to keep it a secret and let the world and the SSPX think otherwise?

And you believed this???

You sure do have a vivid imagination. You deduced one through four above about me from what I wrote? Of all people, you should know better than to do something like that. Shame on you!

Take it up with the FSSP. One of their priests told me, and I relate to you what I was told.

And I don’t wonder how in the world how you could have fallen for all of the SSPX lines. I was a victim of their propaganda for years. Therefore, I forgive you, as I know how it can twist the mind and distort things.

We’ll be here in the trenches waiting for you, if and when your negotiations with the Vicar of Christ ever come to any fruition. Until then, the Roman Catholic Church will continue along with the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost.

 

[giuseppeTO]

And I don’t wonder how in the world how you could have fallen for all of the SSPX lines. I was a victim of their propaganda for years. Therefore, I forgive you, as I know how it can twist the mind and distort things.

That is really all I can ask, thanks.

The priest at our church (novus ordo) didn’t like the fact that some of us knelt to receive Communion, or in my case genuflected before receiving. After Communion, sitting in the chair up on the altar one Sunday he said "Those of you who think you are ‘holier than thou’ genuflecting before receiving Communion, all you are doing is worshiping the butt of the person in front of you.’ No lie … his exact words. I am not sure how priests are being formed in the Novus Ordo, but it is not the religion I was born into.

We’ll be here in the trenches waiting for you, if and when your negotiations with the Vicar of Christ ever come to any fruition. Until then, the Roman Catholic Church will continue along with the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost.

Hopefully it won’t be long - I’ll join you in the good fight for the soul of our church.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, actually, not by Paul VI either but by the new bishop of the incardinating diocese. Although I believe it was appealed to Paul VI without success.

Sorry to back up a bit but how could that new bishop suspend Archbishop Lefebrve? Sounds like there was plenty of provocation outside the Vatican.

 

[CradleCath]

Cradle,

I would think that my subsequent posts would answer your questions. In case not, yes, I spent years with the SSPX, and yes, I meant the Archbishop. I suppose I should also say that when I say he was wrong, I mean he was wrong in defying the man he claimed to acknowledge as the Pope.

Capiche?

Gotcha’ & thanks.

 

[Lormar]

That is really all I can ask, thanks.

The priest at our church (novus ordo) didn’t like the fact that some of us knelt to receive Communion, or in my case genuflected before receiving. After Communion, sitting in the chair up on the altar one Sunday he said "Those of you who think you are ‘holier than thou’ genuflecting before receiving Communion, all you are doing is worshiping the butt of the person in front of you.’ No lie … his exact words. I am not sure how priests are being formed in the Novus Ordo, but it is not the religion I was born into.

Hopefully it won’t be long - I’ll join you in the good fight for the soul of our church.

Guisep, no need to tell me the horror stories. I lived through it all which is what led me out of the Church. But I have a well formed Catholic conscience - I say “well formed” because it was formed before the spirit of the Second Vatican Council took hold - and it kept disturbing me. I kept pushing the unrest down, but it wouldn’t stay down. That well formed Catholic conscience, which remembered that not only outside the Church there is no salvation but also that there is no salvation without adherence to the Vicar of Christ, led me back in.

My brother, if you haven’t already, I would suggest that you get a hold of and read the sermon given by His Excellency Bishop Slattery at the Pontifical High Mass that took place in Washington, D. C. a few weeks ago. If you go to www.dioceseoftulsa.org, you will find it.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Sorry to back up a bit but how could that new bishop suspend Archbishop Lefebrve? Sounds like there was plenty of provocation outside the Vatican.

He didn’t … he revoked his patronage and thus his incardination.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Guisep, no need to tell me the horror stories. I lived through it all which is what led me out of the Church. But I have a well formed Catholic conscience - I say “well formed” because it was formed before the spirit of the Second Vatican Council took hold - and it kept disturbing me. I kept pushing the unrest down, but it wouldn’t stay down. That well formed Catholic conscience, which remembered that not only outside the Church there is no salvation but also that there is no salvation without adherence to the Vicar of Christ, led me back in.

My brother, if you haven’t already, I would suggest that you get a hold of and read the sermon given by His Excellency Bishop Slattery at the Pontifical High Mass that took place in Washington, D. C. a few weeks ago. If you go to www.dioceseoftulsa.org, you will find it.

Will do!

 

[pnewton]

And do you really think it is impossible that God chose the late, great Archbishop to be His tool to ensure survival of The Church…all things are possible with God.

Yes, things are possible. It is possible that President Obama is the instrument of God for the survival of the Catholic Church, or some poster here.

Possible, in that God is all-powerful. I see none of the above as reasonably likely.

Bear in mind that God could also have allowed the AB to obtain the papacy.

 

[Aramis]

Is the only difference between valid and licit that one fulfills your weekly obligation and the other doesn’t?

That’s not even correct. The illicit mass, if you couldn’t make it to a licit one, fulfills the obligation as well (as does an Orthodox Divine Liturgy).

The difference is that the Licit one is not a sin for the celebrant, the illicit one is.

 

[floresco]

We’ll be here in the trenches waiting for you, if and when your negotiations with the Vicar of Christ ever come to any fruition. Until then, the Roman Catholic Church will continue along with the promised assistance of the Holy Ghost.

I pray fervently for these negotiations.

But, Lormar, how do envision the Tridentine Mass having been preserved without the disobedience of the SSPX?

 

[JMJ_coder]

But, Lormar, how do envision the Tridentine Mass having been preserved without the disobedience of the SSPX?

Via the FSSP and ICRSS.

 

[floresco]

Via the FSSP and ICRSS.

But these seem to have been created in response to the SSPX. As I understand it, people were showing their attachment to the Tridentine Mass by having illicit Masses (i.e. disobeying) and so structures were created for licit ones.

 

[Shin]

The SSPX situation is a difficult and dangerous one. There’s weight on either side.

I asked recently:

Can the pope excommunicate anyone he wants?

Got the answer:

The pope is not a tin-pot dictator. He is the Servant of the Servants of God, which means that his role is to serve the faithful. To toss anyone out of the Church, merely as a raw display of power, would not be service. As for the extent of his power, even the pope is bound to follow canon law and to respect the structures that are in place for the protection of individual Christians. He may change disciplinary law if there is compelling and just reason to do so, but he may not simply ignore the law. He is, as I believe Pope Benedict XVI pointed out, the guardian of tradition, not its master.

---

My thoughts… Excising from this situation… entirely… Purely hypothetically…

Say you do have a Pope who for whatever reason takes up policies guaranteed to cause the destruction of the faith and the loss of many souls, but not necessarily directly sinful in and of themselves, simply horrible. The Pope will excommunicate you if you oppose them. What do you do?

His successors are part of his party in view of these new policies – so contrary to those of the previous Popes? What do you do while that party is in charge, for however long?

What do you do?

What do you do when it starts getting grayer and grayer about some parts of it and less black and white? But no recanting is done or responsibility is taken? What do you do?

History is interesting… and I simply have not read enough of the history of the Popes to see how it’s gone during the bad times well enough.

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam

“If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgement or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII († 1334).”

Pope Adrian VI

Pope Adrian VI said that – but who are the others he is referring to, and what did people do during these times? I do not know.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Yeah, but they have hand picked leaders and were only granted the right to celebrate the Tridentine Mass after they were forced to also celebrate the NO…

But these seem to have been created in response to the SSPX. As I understand it, people were showing their attachment to the Tridentine Mass by having illicit Masses (i.e. disobeying) and so structures were created for licit ones.