FSSP and SSPX

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Someone handed me the June “Regina Coeli Report” today.

I see in it that when the students and priests from the SSPX chapel/school in Kansas City, Missouri made a field trip to DC, the SSPX priests were given permission to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Lourdes Chapel located in the crypt of the Basilica National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

This is a far cry from the days when they were run out of churches and had to say Mass in fields.****
 
could someone please explain how SSPX is not sedavacantist…

and what group IS???

again… there ARE some people out there… (wont mention any names :o)

who know virtually nothing about SSPX and related subjects…

can someone give the lowdown on sedavacantism… for those … uh… people out there…?
 
could someone please explain how SSPX is not sedavacantist…

and what group IS???

again… there ARE some people out there… (wont mention any names :o)

who know virtually nothing about SSPX and related subjects…

can someone give the lowdown on sedavacantism… for those … uh… people out there…?
Because the SSPX generally hold that Pope Benedict XVI is the Pope and not some anti-pope or imposter.

As far as I know the SSPV (Society of Saint Pius V) are sedevacantist and think there hasn’t been a real Pope since Pope Pius XII.
 
could someone please explain how SSPX is not sedavacantist…
Because the Society doesn’t believe the Holy See is “vacant.”
and what group IS???
I think there are several small groups who believe the “seat is vacant.” Some have even “filled the seat” with their own “Pope.”
again… there ARE some people out there… (wont mention any names :o)
who know virtually nothing about SSPX and related subjects…
can someone give the lowdown on sedavacantism… for those … uh… people out there…?
The best I can do is just pass on to you a Wikipedia link…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism
 
On the contrary, Satan revels in blind obedience by his subjects.

The Church teaches otherwise…

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. --Gal 1

*11 Wherefore? Because I love you not? God knoweth it. 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off the occasion from them that desire occasion, that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works. * --2 Cor 11.

2. That We make no delay in this matter is rendered necessary especially by the fact that the partisans of error are to be sought not only among the Church’s open enemies; they lie hid, a thing to be deeply deplored and feared, in her very bosom and heart, and are the more mischievous, the less conspicuously they appear. We allude, Venerable Brethren, to many who belong to the Catholic laity, nay, and this is far more lamentable, to the ranks of the priesthood itself, who, feigning a love for the Church, lacking the firm protection of philosophy and theology, nay more, thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, vaunt themselves as reformers of the Church… --PASCENDI DOMINICI GREGIS, St. Pius X

Nowhere does the Church teach blind loyalty to the Pope. The Pope is only infallible when he meets the specific requirements of an ex cathedra pronouncement. Of course, in ordinary circumstances the Pope’s words are given great weight, but when he acts contrarily to dogmatic doctrine, you can not follow him there.

Papal infallibility is the dogma in Roman Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church, as sensus fidelium, to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics. This dogma, however, does not state either that the Pope cannot sin in his own personal life or that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity, outside the specific contexts in which the dogma applies.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
I am aware of all of this; I have spent years studying these concepts in order to refute misconceptions that non-Catholics have. You’re not telling me anything new.

Like Pnewton said, no one here is advocating “blind” loyalty, but rather the loyalty we all owe to Christ’s Church. Give it a rest, already.
 
Because the SSPX generally hold that Pope Benedict XVI is the Pope and not some anti-pope or imposter.

As far as I know the SSPV (Society of Saint Pius V) are sedevacantist and think there hasn’t been a real Pope since Pope Pius XII.
thanks… sometimes i wonder if they are not on to something…
 
Because the Society doesn’t believe the Holy See is “vacant.”

I think there are several small groups who believe the “seat is vacant.” Some have even “filled the seat” with their own “Pope.”

The best I can do is just pass on to you a Wikipedia link…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism
thanks…

was the See vacant when the popes were in Avignon?:confused:
 
The real soldiers in this whole battle against modernism are the LAY PEOPLE- us. Priests are like doctors on the battle field.

No priest, SSPX or not, is completely free to speak his mind. That is the beauty of these forums. People can speak the truth without fear of repercussions at work, etc.

One practical thing I would encourage all Catholics to do is get involved actively in an apostolate of RESTORATION.

For example, there are many pre-Vatican II prayerbooks and books that are completely out of print. Why not TYPE these out and put them online? I have done this myself. Why not get some traditional catholic books into the hands of young people who go to the Novus Ordo, etc.

It’s practical things like that, that laypeople can do-----things that are more productive than debating whether the SSPX is in schism or not, or whether the FSSP has somehow “compromised”.

Let’s not hurl insults at the SSPX or the FSSP, but focus on converting liberal “Catholics” back to the faith.
great idea, even if the person simply scans pages, these documents stand a greater chance of preservation than collecting dust in paper format. Another thing that needs preserving in quality traditional sermons in audio, video, and print form.
 
Unfortunately some Catholics do take this position.
Do you also think that it’s unfortunate that saints like Bruno, Benedict, Francis of Assisi, Dominic, Teresa of Avila, and Mother Teresa imposed blind obedience to the popes and bishops on their sons and daughters under threat of excommunication and eternal damnation? And to drive home the point, they included this requirement in their rules and demand that any one who wants to enter their religious community must vow obedience to this rule of total, absolute and unquestioned obedience to the pope and the local bishop? Is it unfortunate that these holy men and women demand this of their sons and daughters? Is it unfortunate that their sons and daughters vow to obey this rule under penalty of eternal damnation if they do not obey? The only exception to this rule is when the pope or bishop orders you to do something that the Church has explicitly identified as a sin, not even something that you believe may be a sin. It has to be identified as a sin by the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Like Pnewton said, no one here is advocating “blind” loyalty, but rather the loyalty we all owe to Christ’s Church. Give it a rest, already.
Not much to disagree with you here, but what’s this “give a rest, already” all about? I’ve posted all of what? – four or five messages on this subject and always in response to someone else.

Wouldn’t you consider it rude if I said the same to you?
 
Do you also think that it’s unfortunate that saints like Bruno, Benedict, Francis of Assisi, Dominic, Teresa of Avila, and Mother Teresa imposed blind obedience to the popes and bishops on their sons and daughters under threat of excommunication and eternal damnation? And to drive home the point, they included this requirement in their rules and demand that any one who wants to enter their religious community must vow obedience to this rule of total, absolute and unquestioned obedience to the pope and the local bishop? Is it unfortunate that these holy men and women demand this of their sons and daughters? Is it unfortunate that their sons and daughters vow to obey this rule under penalty of eternal damnation if they do not obey? The only exception to this rule is when the pope or bishop orders you to do something that the Church has explicitly identified as a sin, not even something that you believe may be a sin. It has to be identified as a sin by the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Honestly, I doubt that these saints would have done the same today. It can be a weakness and, when Popes oppose or water down the ancient Tradition of the Church it can destroy Faith. I doubt they ever dreamt there would ever exist the “reforming mania” of Vatican II – and the other changes in the post-Vatican II Church.

In 2002 Pat Buchanan made the following observation about the decline in the Religious Orders since Vatican II.

“-- Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559
young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the
Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-
thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912
seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of
young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in
1965 to 84 in 2000."

www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/29_Figures.pdf

Why would a “renewal” result in the decline of Religious houses?
 
Honestly, I doubt that these saints would have done the same today. It can be a weakness and, when Popes oppose or water down the ancient Tradition of the Church it can destroy Faith. I doubt they ever dreamt there would ever exist the “reforming mania” of Vatican II – and the other changes in the post-Vatican II Church.
So in other words, “I know that all the Saints didn’t disobey the Church like I am currently doing, but this is different”. :rolleyes:
 
Honestly, I doubt that these saints would have done the same today. It can be a weakness and, when Popes oppose or water down the ancient Tradition of the Church it can destroy Faith. I doubt they ever dreamt there would ever exist the “reforming mania” of Vatican II – and the other changes in the post-Vatican II Church.

In 2002 Pat Buchanan made the following observation about the decline in the Religious Orders since Vatican II.

“-- Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559
young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the
Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-
thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912
seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of
young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in
1965 to 84 in 2000."

www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/29_Figures.pdf

Why would a “renewal” result in the decline of Religious houses?
Let’s slow down here. They lived at a time when the Church was in greater crisis than today. But what they were looking to do was to restore obedience, discipline, total detachment, and to obey as Christ obeyed: without murmuring, without resentment, without thinking about it twice. Let’s not forget that Mother Teresa is certainly as 20th century founder and lived long after Vatican II, yet she died demanding this kind of obedience from her sisters and brothers.

The founders of today’s Franciscan reformed communities have all insisted in returning to the total and absolute obedience to the pope, bishops, Francis and the superiors without ever questioning. We never express our opinion on anything unless it coincides with that of our superiors.

On another note, there is a reason why the Franciscans ordained such a low number in 2000. By the year 1990 the Franciscan family, all 120 branches, had reached a total number of 1.7 million friars and 60% of them were ordained. The superiors general gathered to discuss this emergency situation. We had ordained too many friars. There should never be more ordained brothers than what we need to serve our internal needs. What we had done was ordain so many that we had to put them at the service of the laity in order to keep them busy.

We got slammed for this by the general chapter of the order and by the Holy Father. This was in direct violation of the wishes of St. Francis. It tilted the scales so much that people began to refer to us as the Franciscan Father instead of Franciscan Friars or Franciscan Brothers. To avoid another clash with the membership of the order and the Holy Father, it was decided to curb the number of friars that we allow to be ordained until the number of ordained can be brought under control. There should never be a situation where we have an excess number of priests, because that forces us to take on ministries that are not Franciscan, such as parishes.

The plan was made to reduce the number of ordination and to begin to close down parishes immediately. If the bishops did not want to close them, they would have to find priests to staff them. The different Franciscan groups picked out a date that was comfortable for them to turn in parishes and to begin cutting down on ordination. But we are still getting an average of 300 friars making final vows per year. That’s just in the USA. Of those three hundred only a few will be given permission to be ordained.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
In 2002 Pat Buchanan made the following observation about the decline in the Religious Orders since Vatican II.
It’s always funny to hear the TV pokes exchanged between Chris Mathews and Pat Buchanan because of this. Buchanan, of course, is a staunch supporter of the EF.
 
Brother JR has touched on a key point: Each order and society has a Charism*; not every order nor society is intended to produce clerics, and a few have no place for clerics in their order or society.

The Franciscan orders (plural) have a variety of charisms; none of them has the defined charism of providing priests to the dioceses.

In fact, few orders/societies** have a charism involving clerics at all. Most orders only have clerics to provide for their own need to participate in liturgies daily as part of their rule.

Those few religious communities which provide clerics as part of their charism seldom have non-clerics other than novice-seminarians.

*Purpose is a close term, but lacks the fullness of the term Charism
** the two are not the same, but few people actually make the distinction.
 
Brother JR has touched on a key point: Each order and society has a Charism*; not every order nor society is intended to produce clerics, and a few have no place for clerics in their order or society.

The Franciscan orders (plural) have a variety of charisms; none of them has the defined charism of providing priests to the dioceses.

In fact, few orders/societies** have a charism involving clerics at all. Most orders only have clerics to provide for their own need to participate in liturgies daily as part of their rule.

Those few religious communities which provide clerics as part of their charism seldom have non-clerics other than novice-seminarians.

*Purpose is a close term, but lacks the fullness of the term Charism
** the two are not the same, but few people actually make the distinction.
The reason for this is that the religious orders of men and societies of apostolic life, unlike the congregations, were founded to be the backbone of the Church, not the ministers of the Church. The orders were founded to sanctify their members. Because these religious are part of the Body of Christ, the graces that they attain are shared with the Body.

Men enter religious orders for their own salvation, first; for the salvation of their brothers, second; and for the salvation of the laity and diocesan clergy, third. There is a hierarchy of charity. One’s first obligation is to one’s soul, then to the soul of one’s family and finally to those outside of the familly.

Those religious who became very involved in serving the laity have paid the price during the last 100 years. Some communities became clericalized, meaning that they lost their identity as consecrated men by becoming communities of parish priests. This was the last thing that the great founders ever wanted.

Other communities became secularized. Their apostolate, such as teaching, became their focal point. Everyone knows that you do not have to be a consecrated religious to be a good teacher. A consecrated religious is a man of prayer, penance, community and service. He is above all obedient, secondly detached and third he is attached to his brothers by virtue of his vow of chastity.

When teaching, healthcare and other apostolates became so important that religious men began to excuse themselves from their spiritual obligations in order to spend more time on serving the people, they began to lose their identity and their effectiveness. They traded being for doing.

What most religious orders are doing now is going back to being over doing. Some do nothing at all except live in a neighborhood and preach by their presence. The Franciscans of the Primitive Observance are the best example that comes to mind. They never set foot in a parish. They never celebrate a mass for the laity. They never hear anyone’s confession except that of the brothers and never celebrate any of the other sacraments. They have no apostolate. They live in a neighborhood where they pray, work with their hands and spend the day walking around town talking to people and visiting their neighbors. When they’e not doing this, they are together in their house serving their brothers just as the first Franciscans did. Only two of their brothers are priests. When one of them dies or gets too old to celebrate mass, Christ will let the superior know whom to call forward to be ordained.

Orders like the Dominicans who always had many priests, but were never meant to be in parishes or working among Catholics. They were founded to serve the interests of the Church in the world of education and in preaching to heretics. But we have abused them and insisted that they take on parishes because there is a shortage of secular priests. In other words, we have made the problems of the laity the problems of the religious to solve, forgetting that the religious were laymen who left the world of the secular and have not been called to return to that world. By imposing this on them, there is no mystery as to why they have lost vocations. Men want to be Dominicans who are like Dominic. They want to do what Francis did, what John Bosco did or John de La Salle.

To imply that the SSPX is more courageous than other societies and orders, because they are critical of this or that, is an unfair statement. Christ does not call other orders and societies to do that. It is not our place to raise our voice to contradict a pope, bishop, superior or council. It is forbidden by our founders, forbidden by our general chapter and forbidden by canon law.

We look at the Church and her hierarchy and we see Christ acting through his Apsotles. Just as the first apostles made mistakes, today’s apostles also make mistakes, but we do not retract our allegience or obedience, because their mistakes do not take away from what has been revealed to us, “Christ speaks to us only through them.” As St. Paul said, “There is no private interpretation of scripture.” Paul made it very clear who had the right to interpret revealed truth and it was not the faithful, only the Apsotles. Peter makes it very clear that the faithful were to put aside their anger at the Apostles and to respond to them with great mercy and great humility. There was a point during Peter’s reign when the faithful questioned much of what the Apostles did or did not do. Peter writes about the importance of charity and humility.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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