FSSP and Vatican II

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Hello. I am currently an Orthodox Catechumen, but I have been thinking of Catholicism for a while now. I am interested in attending an FSSP Tridentine Mass in my town, but I am a bit hesitant. First, I have heard that many FSSP are former SSPX now in full communion with Rome. Is this true?

Basically, I am afraid of running into a bunch of sedevacantists. How does the FSSP view Vatican II and how does it reconcile the “Spirit of Vatican II” with older traditional RC beliefs (i.e. cremation, salvation outside of the Church, ecumenism, etc.)?

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Does it apply to the FSSP and, if so, does it contradict any of the teachings? I ask since I have read that some traditional Catholics use the Baltimore Catechism. Perhaps the root of my question is: What is the major difference between the CCC and Baltimore or other catechisms?

Please do not descend into any arguments regarding the NO and EO or other polemics. I have a moderate view of Vatican II: I think things can be looked at in a new light, but only with Tradition as a guide and basis. However, I do not like what I see in some of the moral relativism and the irreverent masses I have ran across in the Catholic Church. If I wanted “anything goes as long as you LOVE” and “happy-clappy” services, I would just go down the street to any of the mega/TV churches abundant in my city.

Thank you.
 
OrthoCatech said:
Hello. I am currently an Orthodox Catechumen, but I have been thinking of Catholicism for a while now. I am interested in attending an FSSP Tridentine Mass in my town, but I am a bit hesitant. First, I have heard that many FSSP are former SSPX now in full communion with Rome. Is this true?

Basically, I am afraid of running into a bunch of sedevacantists. How does the FSSP view Vatican II and how does it reconcile the “Spirit of Vatican II” with older traditional RC beliefs (i.e. cremation, salvation outside of the Church, ecumenism, etc.)?

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Does it apply to the FSSP and, if so, does it contradict any of the teachings? I ask since I have read that some traditional Catholics use the Baltimore Catechism. Perhaps the root of my question is: What is the major difference between the CCC and Baltimore or other catechisms?

Please do not descend into any arguments regarding the NO and EO or other polemics. I have a moderate view of Vatican II: I think things can be looked at in a new light, but only with Tradition as a guide and basis. However, I do not like what I see in some of the mora

relativism and the irreverent masses I have ran across in the Catholic Church. If I wanted

“anything goes as long as you LOVE” and “happy-clappy” services, I would just go down the street to any of the mega/TV churches abundant in my city.

Thank you.
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The Church is called the"one holy Catholic and apostolic church", not the church for those who fancy themselves more holy than 99% of the body of Christ. Maybe you should investigate starting your own church like L. Ron Hubbard did, then you can control all services and behavior of those attending.🤷
 
I attend a FSSP parish. Only a very few of the overall FSSP priests came from the SSPX, which in of itself is not something to be alarmed about. JPII granted the FSSP faculties and they are true defenders of the faith.

The FSSP are some of the best defenders against the sedes, so no worries about that. As far as a good overview of what the FSSP are about, watch this from Fr. Calvin Goodwin:

youtube.com/watch?v=96i2d428us4

The FSSP, like many traditional orders in communion with Rome, do not use polemical attacks against VII or the NO. They recognize there are problems with them both, but leave it at that. And since Church teaching does not change, there is no problem if they or others prefer the more “direct” language of the Catechism of Trent (I myself prefer the Catechism of Trent) or the Baltimore Catechism. They are very much against the “modernism” that has manifested itself within the Church, and the “Spirit of VII”.

The FSSP are rock solid and are beacons of hope to many of the faithful amidst the confusion in the Church. Do not hesitate to talk with them and voice your concerns. And welcome!
 
I would like to have an honest response from the Catholic faithful. This is the kind of polemics I am afraid of…
 
The FSSP are a solid society in good standing in the Church. It’s true they were founded by SSPX priests who wanted to reconcile with Rome; and so they did (in 1988). Coming from that background they may have some questions or reservations about certain passages in Vatican II, but they do not question its validity as a Council. They may also dislike certain modern trends in the Church, preferring the traditional, but they have the Pope’s blessing to exercise this special charism. They are not sedevacantists by any means.

As to catechisms, the CCC is more of a manual and a source for shorter catechisms. It’s not really what you want to use for teaching young children the faith. Baltimore is older, written for children, shorter, and in Q&A format. Older catechisms had more of an emphasis on memorizing doctrinal formulas, whereas newer ones emphasize explanations. Both have pros and cons. The FSSP bookstore sells the CCC (or at least used to) as well as the Roman Catechism (from the Council of Trent), Baltimore, and others.
 
Ghislieri said:
Ortho, see above, and please don’t be deterred by unfortunate comments like that.
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So, it seems appropriate to you that someone wants to join the Church, but only one small corner of it? The team at our parish would sniff this out and is quite doubtful if they would recommend a person with that frame of mind to become a candidate, rather would suggest they spend another year discerning and learning Church history and that we are much more concerned with the Holy Eucharist than the language the mass is presented in.
 
OrthoCatech said:
Hello. I am currently an Orthodox Catechumen, but I have been thinking of Catholicism for a while now. I am interested in attending an FSSP Tridentine Mass in my town, but I am a bit hesitant. First, I have heard that many FSSP are former SSPX now in full communion with Rome. Is this true?

Basically, I am afraid of running into a bunch of sedevacantists. How does the FSSP view Vatican II and how does it reconcile the “Spirit of Vatican II” with older traditional RC beliefs (i.e. cremation, salvation outside of the Church, ecumenism, etc.)?

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Does it apply to the FSSP and, if so, does it contradict any of the teachings? I ask since I have read that some traditional Catholics use the Baltimore Catechism. Perhaps the root of my question is: What is the major difference between the CCC and Baltimore or other catechisms?

Please do not descend into any arguments regarding the NO and EO or other polemics. I have a moderate view of Vatican II: I think things can be looked at in a new light, but only with Tradition as a guide and basis. However, I do not like what I see in some of the moral relativism and the irreverent masses I have ran across in the Catholic Church. If I wanted “anything goes as long as you LOVE” and “happy-clappy” services, I would just go down the street to any of the mega/TV churches abundant in my city.

Thank you.
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Hello OrthoCatech,

I am sorry for some of the treatment you have received so far.

Some FSSP priests used to be in the SSPX, yes. If I’m not mistaken, in fact, both of their seminary rectors are former SSPX. Regardless, there is nothing wrong with this. FSSP priests are very orthodox.

You are not going to run in to sedevacantists in the FSSP. You might find a few in the SSPX, but even with SSPX priests, the vast majority of sede-leaning guys get out sooner or later to join a sede group or start another one, but the SSPX itself is no more sedevacantist than the FSSP than is the Order of Preachers.

I am not sure how the FSSP views Vatican II. They don’t go around bashing it, nor do they jump on the heresy train of “Vatican II changed, Vatican II said, Vatican II changed, I don’t have to listen to the Magisterium I am my own Magisterium, Vatican II, Vatican II, Vatican II” bandwagon. Overall their actions seem rather neutral towards it, and I’ve never heard a speech on it. I know recently the superior of the FSSP, Fr. John Berg, gave an hour long lecture on Vatican II at a parish in the Diocese of Charlotte, but that seems to be the exception to the norm, and attendees said it was a rather cautious and neutral talk.

Cremation remains the distinct preference of the Church, but not a rule. It was at one time because people burned themselves to deny certain Catholic doctrine, but cremation itself is not a doctrinal issue. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is a topic that is usually expansive to explain but simple to understand once you have all the pieces; suffice it to say that Vatican II changed nothing in that regard, it just continued a theme of, “Non-Christians can go to heaven but it’s hard, and who can imagine what it must be like to try to be saved without the Sacraments?” Ecumenism is a pastoral act ultimately of the responsibility of the Pope to ensure Christian unity, and as such, is his prerogative.

The CCC applies to the whole Catholic Church. In itself it is not “infallible;” rather, it is a practical elucidation of infallible teaching, teaching contained within it. The FSSP does not contradict any of it, no. It may teach it in a “classic” way, a way they may believe truly is better practically speaking, but they do not actually contradict any Catholic teaching. I’ll leave it at that.

Have I answered your questions well enough?
 
OrthoCatech, welcome to CAF, Ghislieri and Ad Orientem, gave great answers, feel free to visit an FSSP Parish, don’t worry about sedes, they don’t really attend FSSP masses, or even SSPX mases for that matter. There other tradtitional groups in good standing with the Church like the ICKSP(ICRSS). When you visit, do introduce yourself to the Pastor, and bring up any questions you might have regarding Catholicism, I’m posititve he would be more than glad to answer!

edit: youngtradcath gave a great answer too!
 
kozlosap said:
So, it seems appropriate to you that someone wants to join the Church, but only one small corner of it? The team at our parish would sniff this out and is quite doubtful if they would recommend a person with that frame of mind to become a candidate, rather would suggest they spend another year discerning and learning Church history and that we are much more concerned with the Holy Eucharist than the language the mass is presented in.
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Please, don’t be insensitive, where did they express any desire to join " one small corner" of the Church? The OP seems to have legitimate concerns that need addressing.
 
kozlosap said:
So, it seems appropriate to you that someone wants to join the Church, but only one small corner of it? The team at our parish would sniff this out and is quite doubtful if they would recommend a person with that frame of mind to become a candidate, rather would suggest they spend another year discerning and learning Church history and that we are much more concerned with the Holy Eucharist than the language the mass is presented in.
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Kozlosap, why does the FSSP and others like them even exist? It shouldn’t take long to realize and reflecting on that that there is no difference between someone who wants to join the Church through someone like the FSSP, or someone like myself who is Catholic already, who would rather attend Mass and be part of a community that they have established with the full blessing of the pope and bishop of the diocese.
 
The FSSP is loyal to Rome. It does not teach anything contrary to the Catechism.

Also, sedevacantists are not welcome in the FSSP. They are not even welcome in the SSPX.

God Bless. :highprayer:
 
OrthoCatech said:
Hello. I am currently an Orthodox Catechumen, but I have been thinking of Catholicism for a while now. I am interested in attending an FSSP Tridentine Mass in my town, but I am a bit hesitant. First, I have heard that many FSSP are former SSPX now in full communion with Rome. Is this true?

Basically, I am afraid of running into a bunch of sedevacantists. How does the FSSP view Vatican II and how does it reconcile the “Spirit of Vatican II” with older traditional RC beliefs (i.e. cremation, salvation outside of the Church, ecumenism, etc.)?

What about the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Does it apply to the FSSP and, if so, does it contradict any of the teachings? I ask since I have read that some traditional Catholics use the Baltimore Catechism. Perhaps the root of my question is: What is the major difference between the CCC and Baltimore or other catechisms?

Please do not descend into any arguments regarding the NO and EO or other polemics. I have a moderate view of Vatican II: I think things can be looked at in a new light, but only with Tradition as a guide and basis. However, I do not like what I see in some of the moral relativism and the irreverent masses I have ran across in the Catholic Church. If I wanted “anything goes as long as you LOVE” and “happy-clappy” services, I would just go down the street to any of the mega/TV churches abundant in my city.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Yes, they are former SSPX, who rejected the errors and schism of that group, and are now loyal to Rome. They are not sedevacantists; they are some of its most strident opponents. They view the last ecumenical council as valid as all the others. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is something they find no practical disagreement with as a universal catechism. The Baltimore Catechism is a local catechism, tailored to the context of the place and time. Other local catechisms exist, some more recent. All approved ones are of course orthodox. Some find it easier to learn from one catechism or the other. This is natural, as men are drawn to different methods of teaching, and local catechisms often emphasize different styles of learning.
 
Thanks to all those for the good replies, especially for those related to catechisms.

I just wanted to make sure that FSSP is in good standing with the Vatican in terms of communion and with Christian charity. I would hate to go to a church where people breed ill feeling.

On a note regarding the use of Latin. I am not specifically seeking Latin, but trying to avoid any kind of unorthodox teachings while maintaining a traditional continuity with the past. From an Orthodox perspective, church language has always been vernacular. Koine Greek used in the early days was the common language in the Eastern Mediterranean and is still intelligible to Modern Greek speakers. So as Christianity spread out, different languages came into use such as Latin and Old Slavonic. The Roman See used and still uses Latin since it was the common language of the area. Only over time has Latin evolved into the Modern Western languages we know now. Today, the Orthodox have no problems with English in North America.

And if there are problems with joining a “small corner” of the Church, then that says a lot about Catholic thinking in America. If the FSSP is in good standing with the Vatican, there should be no problem. If there is a problem, then what does that say about the Byzantine Catholics (and other Eastern Catholics) and the ‘universal’ concept of the church? Are they a “small corner?” In fact, the Roman Catholic tendency during the late 1800’s to force the Byzantine Catholics into integrating into American Roman Catholicism pushed many of the Byzantine Catholics back into Orthodoxy (mostly the Orthodox Church in America–OCA).

My interest in the FSSP and the Roman Catholic Church at large has been the doing of one of my Byzantine Catholic friends.

Thank you!
 
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