Fssp/icksp/sspx

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LoyalViews said:
Loyalty and obedience overlap in their definition, if one is loyal to church and tradition, isn’t one also obedient to the precepts of the faith, including the Holy Father?
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To the precepts of the faith, yes indeed. But how many currently within our Church (including some clergy) put forward opinions seemingly at odds with Church teachings?

And loyalty to the pope does not mean accepting everything he says as sacred Truth. As Catholics we are not bound to do that.

Yes there is sn issue of obedience with the SSPX, but look around the Church, there is disobedience and rejection of Church teaching all over the place. How is the disobedience of the SSPX worse than the disobedience to Church teaching that seems rife within the Church? At least the SSPX are unswervingly loyal when it comes to the Church’s teachings on morals. Is it fair that the SSPX be viewed as not being in full communion while those who reject the Church’s teachings on morality are viewed as being in full communion?
 
Brendan_64 said:
And the SSPX cannot work in unity with the local diocesan bishop or collaborate with local diocesan clergy and religious orders etc, not because they do not wish too, but because they are not allowed to. It is not their choice that they are not granted faculties from the local bishop, and local diocesan clergy would be likely to (at best) fall out of favour with their diocesan bishop is they chose to collaborate with the SSPX. Which is ironic as local diocesan clergy are allowed to (even encouraged to) collaborate with clergy from non-Catholic, ecclesial communities, by their diocesan bishops.

Unlike the FSSP, the SSPX would not be allowed to work under the diocesan bishop or collaborate with diocesan clergy etc. even if they wanted to.
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In my city, laity who frequent the SSPX chapel pray for prolife, and affirm prolife within their congregation, and as citizens.

In my city, laity who frequent the diocesan Latin Mass pray for prolife, and affirm prolife within their congregation, and as citizens.
ALSO this second group of laity are actively involved in the regional prolife effort, cooperating with other Catholic groups towards affirming traditional Marriage and Religious Liberty. This means dealing in a united way with hostile media and politicians. Laity try, sometimes successfully, to keep these causes a priority in our diocese.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Yes there is sn issue of obedience with the SSPX, but look around the Church, there is disobedience and rejection of Church teaching all over the place. How is the disobedience of the SSPX worse than the disobedience to Church teaching that seems rife within the Church? At least the SSPX are unswervingly loyal when it comes to the Church’s teachings on morals. …
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Where I live, the SSPX is unswervingly loyal when it comes to the Church’s teachings on morals. As a group on their own, they have some activities to oppose immorality in the secular society. They are aware of abuses within the diocese, and nationally.
I am involved in traditional Catholic apostolates that work within the Church. We are unswervingly loyal when it comes to the Church’s teachings on morals. As a group on our own, we have some activities to oppose immorality in the secular society. We are aware of abuses in the diocese, and nationally.
ALSO Our apostolates join with other Catholics in united public stands against immoral practices in the community. We never attack the bishop or clergy, but communicate to him and other officials when “Catholic” schools and departments do bad things. Sometimes abuses are lessened. We try to offer information and educational materials to parishes and schools, consistent with Catholic morality. Some lets us in. We can’t influence all priests. We do influence some.
 
commenter said:
ALSO this second group of laity are actively involved in the regional prolife effort, cooperating with other Catholic groups towards affirming traditional Marriage and Religious Liberty. This means dealing in a united way with hostile media and politicians. Laity try, sometimes successfully, to keep these causes a priority in our diocese.
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But the SSPX are effectively prevented from cooperation with diocesan clergy. If a diocesan priest were to cooperate, with and carry out activities jointly with, the SSPX, then his activities would (at best) most likely be disapproved of by his diocesan bishop. Which is very unfortunate given the fact that cooperation with non-Catholic clergy from Protestant eclessial communities would be likely not to be disapproved of by his bishop (and may even be encouraged).

The SSPX are effectively frozen out in the cold and treated as persona non-gratis. How can they then be blamed for lack of cooperation with diocesan clergy?
commenter said:
Where I live, the SSPX is unswervingly loyal when it comes to the Church’s teachings on morals.
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Yet they are treated as being effectively not in communion with they church.
commenter said:
We are aware of abuses in the diocese, and nationally. …We can’t influence all priests. We do influence some.
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And are diocesan priests who do not appear to be in keeping with Catholic teaching effectively treated as being not in communion with the Church?

The SSPX are, as you also recognise, unswervingly loyal to Catholic moral teaching, yet because of some disobedience issue not related to moral teaching (issues which the SSPX are open and honest about) yet they are treated as ‘lepers’. Whereas diocesan clergy who seem to have views at odds with Catholic moral teaching are treated at best as priests in good standing, but simply in need of a bit of education (or even as priests holding points of view to be listened to).

Does that not strike you as inconsistent and inherently unfair?
 
Brendan_64 said:
To the precepts of the faith, yes indeed. But how many currently within our Church (including some clergy) put forward opinions seemingly at odds with Church teachings?

And loyalty to the pope does not mean accepting everything he says as sacred Truth. As Catholics we are not bound to do that.

Yes there is sn issue of obedience with the SSPX, but look around the Church, there is disobedience and rejection of Church teaching all over the place. How is the disobedience of the SSPX worse than the disobedience to Church teaching that seems rife within the Church? At least the SSPX are unswervingly loyal when it comes to the Church’s teachings on morals. Is it fair that the SSPX be viewed as not being in full communion while those who reject the Church’s teachings on morality are viewed as being in full communion?
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This is so true. You have members of the Church on the DAILY telling couples how it is their “moral conscience” that can use contraception, or telling someone with same-sex attraction that it is their “conscience to be obeyed” on whether to commit sexual sin. This does nothing but confuse people and anyone who does this is usually a child of God that can be considered “CINO”, Catholic In Name Only.

I agree with you, and I’m afraid this thread will become a dead horse.
 
If the SSPX were to disappear, the regional and national Catholic apostolates for prolife, traditional marriage, and religious liberty, would expand, as most people would then join diocesan communities that are active in those apostolates. If the SSPX were to expand, those regional and national apostolates would shrink, since the SSPX only draws people from the kind of Catholic communities that happen to be active in those apostolates. In my city, the diocesan Latin Mass community is where the SSPX tends to draw people from.
 
commenter said:
If the SSPX were to disappear, the regional and national Catholic apostolates for prolife, traditional marriage, and religious liberty, would expand, as most people would then join diocesan communities that are active in those apostolates. If the SSPX were to expand, those regional and national apostolates would shrink, since the SSPX only draws people from the kind of Catholic communities that happen to be active in those apostolates. In my city, the diocesan Latin Mass community is where the SSPX tends to draw people from.
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But the SSPX will not disappear. And the laity are not actually part of the SSPX. The laity who attend SSPX Masses are simply Catholics. And there is not such a great division. If you attend a FSSP Mass and talk to the congregation afterwards, you will find that there are many of the people there who also attend SSPX Masses. The SSPX are not a separate sect, no more than other orders within the Church (who have canonical status) are.
 
commenter said:
If the SSPX were to disappear, the regional and national Catholic apostolates for prolife, traditional marriage, and religious liberty, would expand, as most people would then join diocesan communities that are active in those apostolates.
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I doubt it. There are lots of non-Catholics who support these measures, most fully knowing, among other things, that the percentage of Catholics supporting same is not much different than the general population.
 
Lay Catholics who are active in the regional and national movements towards prolife, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty, tend to be involved in diocesan Latin Mass communities, or traditional Ordinary Form parishes. They work in connection with the diocesan and national Catholic apostolates.

The great majority of lay Catholics who *favor * prolife, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty are not working in support of the local or national Catholic movements in those areas. Most of these passive or unconnected prolifers are in Ordinary Form parishes, but they also include laity in SSPX. I’m not implying the SSPX laity are lazy, or lack strong feelings about prolife, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty. They are sincere; but they are unconnected in those Catholic apostolates.
 
Where I live, there are several Catholic offshoots besides the SSPX, including independent ethnic Catholic separatist groups, a group that broke off from the SSPX, an independent “traditionalist” monastery, and other tiny Catholic groups of various origin.
  • Each offshoot describes its members as fully Catholic
  • Each group says it has just grievances, distrusts the local diocese and the other offshoots;
  • Each group says it is permanent - “we aren’t going away”
  • Each group includes laity with strong feelings about abortion, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty.
  • None of the groups, or individual laity, cooperates in **action ** with the diocesan efforts, or national Catholic efforts towards Prolife, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty. The offshoots don’t cooperate in action with each other, either.
  • The enemies of Prolife, Traditional Marriage, and Religious Liberty would like to see the offshoots continue, or even to multiply.
 
commenter said:
Lay Catholics who are active in the regional and national movements towards prolife, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty, tend to be involved in diocesan Latin Mass communities, or traditional Ordinary Form parishes. They work in connection with the diocesan and national Catholic apostolates.
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Fair points, but I based my opinion on the fact that Roe vs Wade was a product of the late 60’s and 70’s (in fact it was a Catholic who cast the key vote in NY bringing the matter to the Supreme Court) so those who would be prolife are probably more attached to the era prior to Vatican II, and what that represented.

I don’t have any data on this, however. And even if I had, it would probably be against forum rules to discuss anyone in or anything about these various organizations.
 
ProVobis said:
Fair points, but I based my opinion on the fact that Roe vs Wade was a product of the late 60’s and 70’s (in fact it was a Catholic who cast the key vote in NY bringing the matter to the Supreme Court) so those who would be prolife are probably more attached to the era prior to Vatican II, and what that represented.

I don’t have any data on this, however. And even if I had, it would probably be against forum rules to discuss anyone in or anything about these various organizations.
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Some of the prolifers active in union with diocesan prolife are older, but most active workers have little or no memory of Vatican II. All are in parishes in union with the Diocese. The SSPX, and other offshoots, also have people with prolife feelings. They are not active in prolife or religious liberty ministries (diocesan connected to State and National efforts).

If you were anti-Christian, where would you prefer prolifers or religious liberty supporters be - in parishes united with the diocese, or in one of the offshoots?
 
commenter said:
If you were anti-Christian, where would you prefer prolifers or religious liberty supporters be - in parishes united with the diocese, or in one of the offshoots?
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If one were anti-Christian, he probably wouldn’t know (or care about) the difference between Lutheranism and Catholicism, much less of who’s united with the diocese or not. He’d blame everyone equally. I mean, that’s the definition of anti-Christian, no?
 
ProVobis said:
If one were anti-Christian, he probably wouldn’t know (or care about) the difference between Lutheranism and Catholicism, much less of who’s united with the diocese or not. He’d blame everyone equally. I mean, that’s the definition of anti-Christian, no?
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He probably would want his opponents scattered, rather than united. The more offshoots (SSPX, and others) the better, from his POV.
 
commenter said:
He probably would want his opponents scattered, rather than united. The more offshoots (SSPX, and others) the better, from his POV.
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But the SSPX are not an offshoot of the Catholic Church, they are not a separate sect. The SSPX clergy are our Catholic brothers, and the laity who attend SSPX Masses are regular members of the Catholic laity, just like you and I.
 
commenter said:
He probably would want his opponents scattered, rather than united. The more offshoots (SSPX, and others) the better, from his POV.
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That’s an interesting theory. However, if you were hungry or homeless or sick, you wouldn’t look at one’s religious affiliation before you ask for help, would you?
 
Those who regularly attend and are involved in FSSP, ICKSP, and other diocesan sponsored Latin Masses tend to be among those who are most deeply involved in diocesan and national movements to support Prolife, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty.
 
commenter said:
Those who regularly attend and are involved in FSSP, ICKSP, and other diocesan sponsored Latin Masses tend to be among those who are most deeply involved in diocesan and national movements to support Prolife, Defense of Marriage, and Religious Liberty.
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Where they’re invited by their diocese, sure. But they’re not invited everywhere; we all know that.
 
Brendan_64 said:
And the SSPX cannot work in unity with the local diocesan bishop or collaborate with local diocesan clergy and religious orders etc, not because they do not wish too, but because they are not allowed to. It is not their choice that they are not granted faculties from the local bishop, and local diocesan clergy would be likely to (at best) fall out of favour with their diocesan bishop is they chose to collaborate with the SSPX. Which is ironic as local diocesan clergy are allowed to (even encouraged to) collaborate with clergy from non-Catholic, ecclesial communities, by their diocesan bishops.
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You write as if the poor, perfectly innocent SSPX can’t work with diocesan clergy just because the diocesan bishops and clergy are being mean to them and not speaking to them like silly junior high school girls in the lunchroom.

This is ridiculous. The SSPX can’t work with the regular church hierarchy because of their founder’s flagrant disobedience to the pope, and because of its bishops’ continuing disobedience. Williamson, in particular, was such an embarrassment to the SSPX that even they got tired of him and kicked him out, but the rest of them are still in ongoing rupture with Rome.

It is, in fact, that simple.
 
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