Fssp/icksp/sspx

[commenter]

And what happens when bishops themselves seem to have themselves abandoned advocating complete obedience to Catholic moral teaching?

How does the SSPX’s disobedience (and not on issues of morals) a sign that they have walked away from our Church, while disobedience (which seems widespread today) regarding Catholic moral teaching (even at an episcopal level) not seen as having walked away?

If the SSPX causes people to be suspicious of their own local bishop and local Catholic ministries as well as their own pope, this makes it harder for people to benefit from sources of Catholic moral guidance. The isolation of most people in the SSPX chapel from diocesan ministries also makes it less likely the laity themselves will be active in what St. Pius X called Catholic Action. This means they are unlikely to be involved in the common Catholic struggle against immorality.

So, the disobedience of the SSPX is not just a minor technical detail, having no effect on morality.

 

[Megan7]

A couple of extra observations as to the SSPX being considered Catholic by Rome. I don’t think you will find any Greek Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, schismatic Cathothics, or Womenpriests allowed to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass or any other formal service at St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome. But on any given day, you will find an SSPX saying Mass at an altar in St. Peter’s. I’ve been to several of them myself - mostly on the very altar that entombs the sacred relics of St. Pius X. I have personally served a Mass by an SSPX priest on the altar in the Clementine Chapel in the crypt of St. Peter’s over the very bones of St. Peter.

Obviously, non-Catholics and schismatics would not be tolerated such privileges. Let’s continue to pray for the situation.

Hello GiuseppeTO,

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut & posts here

Correct me if I am wrong. But, I was under the impression that Bishop Fellay actually prayed the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in Rome, during the talks with Pope Benedict XVI. That is when people thought that the deal was going through. I cannot remember where exactly, but I read it in a reputable outlet online.

In case someone is lurking, reading this thread, and not familiar with the 3 different groups. Bishop Fellay is the Superior of the FSSPX.

Thank you & God bless

+PAX

 

[Brendan_64]

If the SSPX causes people to be suspicious of their own local bishop and local Catholic ministries as well as their own pope, this makes it harder for people to benefit from sources of Catholic moral guidance.

Suspicion is not in itself immoral. And SSPX priests, are a source of Catholic moral guidance fir those who attend their churches. It could be argued that more time is spent preaching about morality from the pulpit in SSPX churches than we often hear from many diocesan clergy.

So, the disobedience of the SSPX is not just a minor technical detail, having no effect on morality.

That is a dangerous implication to make and is based on an assumption that SSPX clergy are somehow deficient when teaching Catholic morality to their congregations when compared to diocesan clergy.

And yet, since the excommunications of the four SSPX bishops were lifted, the SSPX bishops can now go into any Catholic church and receive the sacraments, just like any other Catholic.

Indeed. Therefore they are Catholic, as are SSPX priests. The SSPX are not a ‘splinter group’, they are indeed part of the Catholic Church.

 

[ProVobis]

If the SSPX causes people to be suspicious of their own local bishop and local Catholic ministries as well as their own pope, this makes it harder for people to benefit from sources of Catholic moral guidance.

Parishioners of the local diocesan churches probably have more to do with this “suspicion” than a bishop who probably they will never meet. The FSSP and ICRSS are not wanted in most places, so how would those supporting FSSPX fare better?

 

[commenter]

Suspicion is not in itself immoral. And SSPX priests, are a source of Catholic moral guidance fir those who attend their churches. It could be argued that more time is spent preaching about morality from the pulpit in SSPX churches than we often hear from many diocesan clergy…

That is a dangerous implication to make and is based on an assumption that SSPX clergy are somehow deficient when teaching Catholic morality to their congregations when compared to diocesan clergy.

St. Pius X certainly believed in the importance of the local bishop, in union with the Pope and with his parishes and laity. He emphasized united Catholic Action. The FSSP and ICKSP are much closer to his teaching than the SSPX.

If young Catholics grow up in a chapel that teaches suspicion of almost all Catholic authority (other than the priest at the chapel) eventually he will be skeptical of the chapel, too. Why should this SSPX priest be any more credible than Catholic priests in general?
Why should he trust Catholic doctrine at all, if the popes and bishops are untrustworthy?
Growing up the SSPX in the long run won’t produce conservative Catholics, it will produce non-Catholics.

People are assuming you can teach people to turn on suspicion of Catholicism 90% of the time, but turn it off when this particular SSPX priest preaches.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Hello GiuseppeTO,

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut & posts here

Correct me if I am wrong. But, I was under the impression that Bishop Fellay actually prayed the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in Rome, during the talks with Pope Benedict XVI. That is when people thought that the deal was going through. I cannot remember where exactly, but I read it in a reputable outlet online.

In case someone is lurking, reading this thread, and not familiar with the 3 different groups. Bishop Fellay is the Superior of the FSSPX.

Thank you & God bless

+PAX

Thanks Megan,

I don’t recall Bishop Fellay offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at a cathedral or basilica in Rome, at least not a Pontifical Mass, other than perhaps at the SSPX priory there. He could certainly have offered a Low Mass at St. Peter’s or St. John Lateran.

 

[giuseppeTO]

If the SSPX causes people to be suspicious of their own local bishop and local Catholic ministries as well as their own pope, this makes it harder for people to benefit from sources of Catholic moral guidance. The isolation of most people in the SSPX chapel from diocesan ministries also makes it less likely the laity themselves will be active in what St. Pius X called Catholic Action. This means they are unlikely to be involved in the common Catholic struggle against immorality.

So, the disobedience of the SSPX is not just a minor technical detail, having no effect on morality.

I think the opposite is true. SSPX chapels are a very prominent presence saying the rosary at abortion clinics, for instance. A couple of years ago, there was a picket by the SSPX chapel in New York outside of a Broadway play that portrayed the Blessed Mother as a prostitute with no other Catholic presence there. Locally, the SSPX holds a counter demonstration praying the rosary during the gay pride parade and receives the gamut of abuse for it - being spit at, having food and drinks thrown at them. They just remain and quietly pray with no other Catholic support present. Such a public stand may be a bit too politically incorrect for diocesan participation.

I would argue in general that the SSPX is at the forefront of the Catholic struggle against immorality, particularly in dress, music, and social behavior.

 

[ProVobis]

Why should he trust Catholic doctrine at all,

In my experience, he is more likely to take the doctrines expressed by Trent a little more seriously. As opposed to many, if not most, Catholics who have never heard of them.

(This is, however, not to imply a Trentist is more likely to be an FSSPX supporter.)

 

[Denise1957]

I think the opposite is true. SSPX chapels are a very prominent presence saying the rosary at abortion clinics, for instance. A couple of years ago, there was a picket by the SSPX chapel in New York outside of a Broadway play that portrayed the Blessed Mother as a prostitute with no other Catholic presence there. Locally, the SSPX holds a counter demonstration praying the rosary during the gay pride parade and receives the gamut of abuse for it - being spit at, having food and drinks thrown at them. They just remain and quietly pray with no other Catholic support present. Such a public stand may be a bit too politically incorrect for diocesan participation.

I would argue in general that the SSPX is at the forefront of the Catholic struggle against immorality, particularly in dress, music, and social behavior.

I hadn’t heard about the abuse that the SSPX encountered during counter demonstration at a gay pride parade. Good heavens…they were spit at, and had food and drinks thrown at them. Oh my!

I recall that the SSPX were publically present in front of the building, praying the Rosary, in Oklahoma City last year when the satanic mass was being held there. They also offered Masses of reparation for the blasphemous event.

 

[Brendan_64]

I recall that the SSPX were publically present in front of the building, praying the Rosary, in Oklahoma City last year when the satanic mass was being held there. They also offered Masses of reparation for the blasphemous event.

Indeed they were. They put on a fine demonstration of mass, active Catholicism, directly tackling satan head on. They were an example to us all in that.

In a Church that seems to be too concerned about offending people resulting in a shying away from tackling issued in such a public way, the SSPX are in some ways a shining light.

They at least do not seem embarrassed about demonstrating their faith publicly and without compromise.

 

[silvergrasshopp]

Just curious, do SSPX priests always mention the name of our Pope every time they say the Canon?

 

[Chatter163]

Just curious, do SSPX priests always mention the name of our Pope every time they say the Canon?

Yes.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Yes.

… and in every Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament during the Ora pro papa.

 

[godisgood77]

They are not in irregular status, they have no status within the Catholic Church. The organization is not in full communion, or any communion, with the Catholic Church. The situation of individuals is different, and varies from person to person. The Church does have discussions with the SSPX periodically, as it does with many other organizations that have no status in the Church. This is because the Church is concerned for the spiritual welfare of individuals.

We can’t judge individuals in the SSPX, who vary a lot, and only God knows their hearts. We can judge that the SSPX is continuing to take actions that the Catholic Church has condemned as very harmful.

This is well said…not emotional or overreaching. Simply stated and true on all points.

As Catholics, we should pray that the SSPX and other runaway groups return to the Church.

 

[godisgood77]

The Church considers the SSPX in the same way that a mother would consider a disobedient son; he may be disobedient, and he may need chastisement, but she still loves him and considers him part of her family, and he considers himself to also be part of that family, and while he dearly loves his mother, he has not quite brought himself to be fully obedient to her.

Fully agree with this statement… the Church views Protestants in the same way.

And what if a diocesan bishop tried to prevent the TLM being said in his diocese?

It would depend on the circumstances of course. It the TLM was being used as part of an agenda or part of an ideology to undermine the teachings of the Church, then in my view the Bishop would have an obligation to intervene. See the situation with the Franciscan’s of the Immaculate where an intervention was necessary to counter “crypto lefebvrian” currents.

 

[Denise1957]

Fully agree with this statement… the Church views Protestants in the same way.

I’ve not seen any indication that the Pope or CDF views the SSPX in the same way that it does Protestants. The SSPX are Catholic.

 

[commenter]

I’ve not seen any indication that the Pope or CDF views the SSPX in the same way that it does Protestants. The SSPX are Catholic.

The SSPX are Catholics, if you mean the individual priests and laity who are attached to the group. I wouldn’t say the SSPX is Catholic, referring to the organization.

It’s not like a Catholic Church religious order, subject to Canon Law, under the oversight of the Vatican, in obedience to the bishops where it has works. It’s not trying to regularlize an existing status in the Church; it seeks to initiate a status in the Church. There are a few comparable groups with “Catholic” in their title, mostly with extremely liberal or conservative views. They identify themselves as “Catholic” all the time when they seek to recruit.

Some have valid bishops, through the Old Catholic line.
If not like Protestant, perhaps the Church considers the SSPX in the same category with these groups.

 

[Denise1957]

The SSPX are Catholics, if you mean the individual priests and laity who are attached to the group. I wouldn’t say the SSPX is Catholic, referring to the organization.

Is it just your opinion that the SSPX are not Catholic, or can you cite a Vatican source which agrees with you?

 

[godisgood77]

Is it just your opinion that the SSPX are not Catholic, or can you cite a Vatican source which agrees with you?

I think a simple google search will turn up the fact that the SSPX has no status in the Church and its ministers do not perform any valid ministry in the Church…

Here is a simple quote from Ecclesia Dei on the subject…

“…the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, they are also suspended a divinis, that is they are forbidden by the Church from celebrating the Mass and the sacraments because of their illicit (or illegal) ordination to the diaconate and the priesthood without proper incardination (cf. canon 265). In the strict sense there are no “lay members” of the Society of St. Pius X, only those who frequent their Masses and receive the sacraments from them.”

If there are no lay members, no priests legally ordained and no valid ministry… well…

We should all pray that they return to the Church.

 

[Denise1957]

I think a simple google search will turn up the fact that the SSPX has no status in the Church and its ministers do not perform any valid ministry in the Church…

Here is a simple quote from Ecclesia Dei on the subject…

“…the priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, they are also suspended a divinis, that is they are forbidden by the Church from celebrating the Mass and the sacraments because of their illicit (or illegal) ordination to the diaconate and the priesthood without proper incardination (cf. canon 265). In the strict sense there are no “lay members” of the Society of St. Pius X, only those who frequent their Masses and receive the sacraments from them.”

If there are no lay members, no priests legally ordained and no valid ministry… well…

We should all pray that they return to the Church.

Can you cite a Vatican source which states that the SSPX are not Catholic?