FSSP vs. EC

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Ungcsertez said:
…must have missed the clause that spelled this out for the Eastern and Oriental Catholics. I bet if I asked the Melkite Patriarch he would disagree with your assumption. 😉

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

U-C
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HMMM. I guess I have more respect for Eastern and Oriental Catholics than you do. I think they are smart enough to know that when we mean Catholic that includes them. Its always interesting to me how much more respect the west gives to the east than does the whole “orthodox in communion with rome” crowd. As for the Melkite Patriarch, I think its clear that the Melkites are not in a very good place. The Zohgby initiative is clear evidence of this.
 
East_and_West said:
Don’t be ridiculous. You know that in order to be Catholic you have to accept all of the teachings of the Church. I so tired of some of people who think that you can rebellious and disobedient to the teachings of the Church just because you are not Latin. Its completely unacceptable. As for documents, Eastern Bishops participated in the first Vatican Council. They may have not like the outcome but the decision of the council was the decision of the council. Deal with it buddy. We are not a pick and choose Church. We are not protestants. We have a magesterium for a reason. If you don’t agree with the teachigns of the Church, then why bother being Catholic?
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I think it might be a good idea to refer to the declarations of union between various Orthodox churches and Rome before making rash judgments about fellow Catholics. There is one particular phrase that springs to mind that sums these documents up, spoken by my own wise patron Saint: “nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter” -Pope St. Pius X-
 
CatholicNerd said:
I think it might be a good idea to refer to the declarations of union between various Orthodox churches and Rome before making rash judgments about fellow Catholics. There is one particular phrase that springs to mind that sums these documents up, spoken by my own wise patron Saint: “nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter” -Pope St. Pius X-
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No need to refer to the declarations of union. Catholic is Catholic and the Church has formally pronounced anathema on those who reject the doctrines of Papal Infallibility and Universal Jurisdiction. Period.
 
A Latin rite Catholic may atttend any other Catholic Rite for Mass and for the sacrament of Penance, even habitually. The Eastern rite Catholic churches believe the same things as the Latin rites. The Ortrhodox Eastern Churches, however, do not. Even so, a Catholic who has no access to a Catholic Church for a long time may attend an Orthodox Church and receive the sacraments in one with their permission. This has been the case, for the example in Russia where there were no Catholic Churches.
 
Ahlman said:
May I out of curiosity just ask why you aren’t even considering joining a regular latin rite parish celebrating the ordinary form of the Mass?
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Because the Novus Ordo is not that great. Sorry, it just isn’t.
 
However there are some Roman Catholic Churches, and at least a couple Russian Catholic Churches in Russia, however the Catholic Church is very small in Russia, because of Orthodox persecution of Catholics. Unlike in the Ukraine where it seems to be a melting pot of Ukrainian Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Ukrainian Catholics, Russia seems to be pretty one sided.

@East and West:

You have a point. The only thing that keeps the Unity among the Church is the Rock of St. Peter. Regardless of whether you agree, otherwise there is no Unity. St. Cyprian makes this quite clear. The Orthodox Christians and the Oriental Christians claim to have a Unity with the faith, however how do we know that the faith has been preserved correctly or that they are correct. The only way that we can know is to stay with the Rock of St. Peter

Although the Eastern Catholic Churches don’t have to emphisize Papal Infallibility, they still have to believe in it. I don’t really know why it matters to them anyways the Eastern Catholic Churches are really basically Autonomous. Interesting how Rome today is like Constantinople to the Eastern Orthodox. They claim to have escaped from heresy, however they really are the same.
 
holdencaulfield said:
Unlike in the Ukraine where it seems to be a melting pot of Ukrainian Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Ukrainian Catholics
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I don’t know where you got your information but it’s not correct.

The Roman Latin Catholics are the DEFINITE MINORITY in Ukraine and are found among the ethnic minorities, i.e. Poles and Hungarians living within the borders of Ukraine in areas that belong to Poland and Hungary prior to 1939.

There is nothing like a “melting pot” and in many areas, there were violent struggles between Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox over the ownership of buildings.

There is even a struggle going on between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate over ownership of churches and monasteries.
 
According to what I am looking at right now, here is the Religious demographics in the Ukraine.

50% - Ukrainian Orthodox
8% - Ukrainian Catholic
2% - Roman Catholic
40% - Other

So my point was that there are other religious presences in the Ukraine other than Eastern Orthodox. However Russia is much less so. Demographics in Russia

.05% - Catholic
 
bpbasilphx said:
Only thing was one person lifted their arms up during the Eucharistic Prayer.

It’s not uncommon for the faithful to take the orans position from time to time, especially among the Melkites.

One thing about the Churc in any liturgical tradition: there is room for personal expressions of piety in them all.
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We assume the orans position in the Maronite Church as well at certain points during the liturgy as well.
 
Hello Holdencaufield,

Congratulations on being called by Our Lord to join the Church. I do agree the the OF is not the way to go, for many reasons. I would advise continuing prayer to the Holy Ghost for proper discernment. Also, to get a hold of the book, “Tumultuous Times” by the Radecki brothers. Your gravitation towards the old Mass and the Eastern rites is understandable and commendable. The above book describes the general councils of the Church and the teachings expounded by them. Then it gets into the Second Vatican Council(1962-1965), how it was different from the previous councils, and the aftermath. Also gives analysis of why we are in this crisis and what to do until God cleans it up. There are other sources, but that is a good source. I would highly recommend visiting the websites traditionalmass.org and christorchaos.com The last one is updated very regularly with timely ariticles affecting us today.
I will keep you in my prayers.

Joe
 
I would be very careful about making a statement like that about the “Novus Ordo”. Not accepting the merits of the liturgical reform is the first step in rejecting Vatican II as a whole, which in turn is the first step to sedevacantism (like one of the sites linked to in the previous post seems to support, by the way). And then your conversion to catholicism really just has been a conversion back to protestantism again.

You should read Ecclesia de Eucharistia by John Paul II where he both makes it clear that “Certainly the liturgical reform inaugurated by the Council has greatly contributed to a more conscious, active and fruitful participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar on the part of the faithful.”, while also admitting that "[T]here are also shadows. (…) In various parts of the Church abuses have occurred, leading to confusion with regard to sound faith and Catholic doctrine concerning this wonderful sacrament. At times one encounters an extremely reductive understanding of the Eucharistic mystery. Stripped of its sacrificial meaning, it is celebrated as if it were simply a fraternal banquet. "

The abuses are not part of the ordinary form of the Mass itself. It, too, can be celebrated with gregorian chant and deep reverence. Of course, you are free to choose the rite where you feel most at home, but I would be very careful to make harsh judgements about the rite celebrated by the pope himself.
 
Ahlman said:
Of course, you are free to choose the rite where you feel most at home, but I would be very careful to make harsh judgements about the rite celebrated by the pope himself.
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I thought I read somewhere that the current pope only uses the NO for public Masses, and uses the TLM privately?
 
Hello,
Code: 
The report of Benedict the XVI saying the old Mass in his chapel was quickly corrected by a Vatican official soon after that rumor surfaced in late July.  
I would say to recognize what VII is, a non-catholic council is a step in the right direction for everyone.  Also, the 1983 Code of Canon Law's instruction permitting giving Holy Communion to non-Catholics should be enough to make someone wonder whether this legislation and the people or body that it is coming from can be trusted.  Are those who live and work in the Vatican that have foisted these innovations on us to be called Catholic and our shehperds?  I should say not.  I would hope that no one on this board would think it is okay to give Communion to a non-Catholic.  We are admonished to not give what is holy to dogs.  This is an apostolic command and 2000 year teaching and tradition of the Church.  And if the non-Catholic exhibits faith in the Real Prescence, what is wrong with having that individual be instructed and then received into the Church like any other convert?  It never killed anyone before to wait.  Sentiment cannot overule what the Church has always taught.  I humbly submit that if anyone believes it is okay to give out Communion to non-catholics, than they need to be instructed in our holy faith and cease giving out any advice/insights into such serious matters.
Joe
 
Joe17 said:
Hello Holdencaufield,

Congratulations on being called by Our Lord to join the Church. I do agree the the OF is not the way to go, for many reasons. I would advise continuing prayer to the Holy Ghost for proper discernment. Also, to get a hold of the book, “Tumultuous Times” by the Radecki brothers. Your gravitation towards the old Mass and the Eastern rites is understandable and commendable. The above book describes the general councils of the Church and the teachings expounded by them. Then it gets into the Second Vatican Council(1962-1965), how it was different from the previous councils, and the aftermath. Also gives analysis of why we are in this crisis and what to do until God cleans it up. There are other sources, but that is a good source. I would highly recommend visiting the websites traditionalmass.org and christorchaos.com The last one is updated very regularly with timely ariticles affecting us today.
I will keep you in my prayers.

Joe
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Thank You Joe, I appreciate it. 🙂
 
holdencaulfield said:
@East and West:

You have a point. The only thing that keeps the Unity among the Church is the Rock of St. Peter. Regardless of whether you agree, otherwise there is no Unity. St. Cyprian makes this quite clear. The Orthodox Christians and the Oriental Christians claim to have a Unity with the faith, however how do we know that the faith has been preserved correctly or that they are correct. The only way that we can know is to stay with the Rock of St. Peter.
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All along, I had believed that the Eucharist “keeps the Unity…” Silly me…

Isn’t that why this sacred mystery is termed Communion.

Silly me…

But to the topic at hand.

Holdencaulfield:

you mention that you are a convert (apparently you are a candidate for Confirmation or Chrismation), where did/are you receive/receiving instructions in the Catholic Faith?
 
ByzCath_Deacon said:
All along, I had believed that the Eucharist “keeps the Unity…” Silly me…

Isn’t that why this sacred mystery is termed Communion.
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But with that reasoning the Eastern Orthodox churches are in Communion with Rome, as are the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Various Church Fathers take different stances. I have seen:
  • Rock of St. Peter
  • Orthodox Faith
  • Eucharist
you mention that you are a convert (apparently you are a candidate for Confirmation or Chrismation), where did/are you receive/receiving instructions in the Catholic Faith?
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Nowhere, I don’t want to start talking to a priest and be like “just kidding I don’t want to be Confirmed here.”
 
holdencaulfield said:
But with that reasoning the Eastern Orthodox churches are in Communion with Rome, as are the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Various Church Fathers take different stances. I have seen:
  • Rock of St. Peter
  • Orthodox Faith
  • Eucharist
Nowhere, I don’t want to start talking to a priest and be like “just kidding I don’t want to be Confirmed here.”
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Holden, may I ask- how long have you been attending Mass/Divine Liturgy?
 
Nicholas82 said:
Holden, may I ask- how long have you been attending Mass/Divine Liturgy?
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I try to switch off between the Tridentine Mass, and the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy every other week. I don’t always go, because as I’m not Catholic yet, it’s not a sin to not meet the Sunday requirement, I try my best to attend.
 
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