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I’m so confused.
Is SSPX in communion with the Holy See or not?
There are plenty of posts here, including two ongoing threads in the Traditional Catholicism forum, which deal with this issue. You might want to have a look at them first. The short answer is “they’re not in schism, but neither are they in full communion.” There are groups like the FSSP which are Traditional and in full communion.
Is it a valid church to attend?
This question generates much debate, some of it quite acrimonious. The “safe” answer is “no, for prudential reasons.” 🙂
I have never before heard of these factions like SSPX and SSPV actually not being in communion with Rome - I always just figured they were hardcore traditionalists that were like “Novus ordo is lame” and then Novus Ordo was like “Whatever dude I’m cool”
The SSPX has not (yet) rejected the Pope, so they’re not in schism.

The SSPV are sedevacantists (= they believe that the current Pope isn’t valid), so they’re not in communion with Rome at all.
not churches that were like “Die Novus Ordo die” and then Novus Ordo was like “Murder is a sin get out” WHAT IS HAPPENING.
This has been happening since the Church was founded, sadly:

*“For, whereas there is among you envying and contention, are you not carnal and walk you not according to man?
For while one saith: I indeed am of Paul: and another: I am of Apollo: are you not men? What then is Apollo and what is Paul?
The ministers of him whom you have believed: and to every one as the Lord hath given.
I have planted, Apollo watered: but God gave the increase.
Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth: but God that giveth the increase…”
*

(1 Corinthians 3)
 
I assume from your posts here and elsewhere that you are not involved with the SSPX and that you do not live in China. If this is the case, these questions should not be causing you such stress or anxiety. It’s fine if are just looking for some information to satisfy your curiosity but these are both very complicated issues. You are not expected to be an expert on all the topics you can read about on these forums, even if you had been a Catholic for a long time…
 
CDF prefect says SSPX in schism, suspended from sacraments
CWN - December 23, 2013

The leaders of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) are in schism, and remain suspended from the sacraments, says the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

In an interview with the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Archbishop Gerhard Müller said that although Pope Benedict XVI lifted the canonical excommunication of SSPX prelates, they remain suspended from the sacraments because “by their schism they have broken away from communion with the Church.”

Archbishop Müller said that while talks with the SSPX have reach an impasse, the Vatican will not close the door to reconciliation. However, he said, a restoration of full communion would require the SSPX to accept the authority of the Church and of the Pope.
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20046
 
CDF prefect says SSPX in schism, suspended from sacraments
CWN - December 23, 2013

The leaders of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) are in schism, and remain suspended from the sacraments, says the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

In an interview with the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Archbishop Gerhard Müller said that although Pope Benedict XVI lifted the canonical excommunication of SSPX prelates, they remain suspended from the sacraments because “by their schism they have broken away from communion with the Church.”

Archbishop Müller said that while talks with the SSPX have reach an impasse, the Vatican will not close the door to reconciliation. However, he said, a restoration of full communion would require the SSPX to accept the authority of the Church and of the Pope.
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20046
That is being thoroughly discussed here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=849612
 
FSSPX and SSPX is the same group. It’s just that most people drop the F.

FSSP was born out of several men who abandoned the SSPX when the Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated and the rest of them were suspended. These men did not want to be in a state of limbo. Not knowing what to do, a handful of them went to Rome to ask for help. They were helped by then Cardinal Ratzinger. Bl. John Paul set them up as the FSSP (Fraternal Society of St. Peter).

The FSSP is a traditionalist society, but it is in full communion with the Holy See. The FSSP is welcome in any diocese around the world. Some of its members work in diocesan ministries while others run parishes for the local bishops. The FSSP also has very good relationships with religious orders around them.

They accept the writings of Vatican II as they are, the CCC, and the Ordinary Form of the Mass. They agree that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is valid and licit. That it is without error.

Like many of us, they recognize that people have inserted nonsense into the OF, but that such nonsense was never in the missal itself. Therefore, it can be taken out and properly disposed of.

The SSPX, on the other hand, finds some documents of Vatican II problematic. It also believes that the Ordinary Form of the mass is valid, but “bad”. Bishop Fellay has gone down on record as saying that he will not make a distinction between licit and illicit. He just wants to say that the new mass is bad. This is a problem. You cannot call bad what the Church uses as are ordinary form of worship of the Triune God. To do so is to say that the Church is using something bad to worship God. This leads to a doctrinal discrepancy.

The SSPX admits that the pope is the legitimate successor of St. Peter, but as Bishop Fellay has said, “Don’t follow him.” This also creates another doctrinal problem. We are bound to follow the apostles. A bishop is an apostle. But no apostle has the authority to undermined the Apostle Peter. Even Paul did not tell the early Christians not to follow Peter. He made his case before Peter and it was Peter who changed his mind. Had Peter stuck to his guns, can we imagine Paul telling the early Church, “Don’t follow him”? I don’t think so.

This position creates what is called a break with the Primacy of Peter. It’s called a schismatic mentality.

It’s extremely important to understand that a schismatic idea does not make the individual a schismatic, nor does it mean that the organization is in schism. The idea is schismatic. The person may be speaking with his whole heart and mind and have no intention to apostatize. Let us not put labels on the good bishop. He is wrong, but he is NOT a schismatic.

That’s the core differences between the FSSP and SSPX. As far as the mass and other sacraments, they follow the same rituals and customs.

One more thing. The FSSP has faculties to forgive sins. The SSPX does not have faculties to forgive sins. There are situations in which their absolution is invalid and your sins are not forgiven. Nor do they have faculties to bless marriages. The FSSP can bless marriages.

Bishops grant those faculties. The SSPX does not submit to the authority of the local bishops, nor does it ask the Pontiff for faculties. It assumes faculties, by assuming that the Church supplies. But theological arguments and canon law seem to be against them on this point. The Church only supplies in very specific situations, not every Saturday to every penitent.

It’s a complex situation for which we must pray that a quick resolution will be found.
Bishop Fellay was illicitly consecrated and hasn’t received the pallium from the Holy Father. He’s a real bishop, but I can’t really see that he is truly Catholic. It would take quite a bit to convince me that the SSPX is a part of the church.
 
I’m so confused.

I cry what do I do

Also, what the heck is going on with China’s Catholic churches.
Such confused.
Why all this anxiety over things that have nothing to do with your daily journey?

Christ is very present in your daily journey as you engage with your responsibilities to your job, family, community, and parish. If you’re attentive to his presence and to serving him well, your plate should be so full that you have not time to be anxious about things and people that are not your problem to solve.

Simply follow the course laid out by the Holy See. Be attentive to the guidance of the Church, especially the Holy Father. Spend time with the Scriptures and blow the rest away. There are people responsible for solving those problems. The Holy Spirit will work through them at his pace, not ours.
 
Bishop Fellay was illicitly consecrated and hasn’t received the pallium from the Holy Father. He’s a real bishop, but I can’t really see that he is truly Catholic. It would take quite a bit to convince me that the SSPX is a part of the church.
Even if Bishop Fellay were legally ordained, only archbishops receive the pallium. The pallium is the garment of the Metropolitan and the Primate. In the Latin Church, he would have to be the primate of a province.
 
Brother, given that the clergy of the SSPX are suspended a divinis and hold no canonical place in the Church, would it be right to say that they are similar to laicised clergy, who continue to hold Holy Orders as an indelible character on their soul, but have lost all faculties to perform the sacraments? I guess the main difference is that laicised clergy have permanently lost their faculties, while the SSPX clergy could potentially have these faculties restored to them were they to reconcile themselves with the Church and be canonically regularized by the Holy See? 🙂
 
Brother, given that the clergy of the SSPX are suspended a divinis and hold no canonical place in the Church, would it be right to say that they are similar to laicised clergy, who continue to hold Holy Orders as an indelible character on their soul, but have lost all faculties to perform the sacraments? I guess the main difference is that laicised clergy have permanently lost their faculties, while the SSPX clergy could potentially have these faculties restored to them were they to reconcile themselves with the Church and be canonically regularized by the Holy See? 🙂
Not really. A laicized priest is one who is dispensed from his priestly obligations and commitments. It goes beyond not celebrating the sacraments. If the priest asked for the laicization, then he remains in good canonical standing with the Church. He can even get validly married in the Church. If the situation ever changed that he could return, such as being widowed without dependent children, the Church can reverse the dispensation.

If the priest is laicized for disciplinary reasons, he still remains in good canonical standing, can still marry validly, but he cannot ask to return.

A suspension is grave matter. Each time that you celebrate the sacraments, you sin. In a suspension, you lose your faculties, but you are not relieved of your priestly obligations. You must remain celibate. You continue bound to the LOTH and the life of prayer of a priest. You continue to be bound to a bishop or a religious superior under obedience.

In the case of the SSPX, part of the reason for their suspension is that they are not in communion with any legitimate Church authority. They have become an authority unto themselves. They claim that God is a higher authority than man. This is true. However, God does not carry the keys in his pocket. He gave them to a man who passes them down to his successors all the way down to Pope Francis. God’s authority is mediated through a man. Therefore, every deacon, priest and bishop must be in full communion with the See of Peter.

How is the unfortunate thinking of many people in the Traditionalist Movement. Many argue that folks like Fr. Hans Kung or the women in the LCSW are not in communion and they are allowed to roam around.

The truth is quite different. They are in communion. Communion is determined by the Church. One may be in error, as has been the case of Fr. Kung and some of the Sisters, but the Church still has their obedience. When the Church commands them in areas where they must obey, they have grudgingly complied. Yes, they have whined, complained, criticized and whatever else an overgrown child can do. But at the end of the day, they comply.

For example, when Fr. Kung lost his license to teach Catholic theology, he complied. He no longer teaches at any Catholic school, nor does he present himself as a formal Catholic theologian. He presents himself as a theologian who is Catholic. That’s allowed.

When the sisters were told that the LCWR has to be reconstructed, they whined, complained and did all those things that overage adolescents do, but they are complying with the bishop appointed to work with them. They may not be happy campers. That’s not a requirement for communion.

The requirement is submission when you’re told to submit. Unless you’re being asked to violate the 10 Commandments, there is no reason for you not to submit.

St. Francis wrote in our admonitions that we are to submit, even if we have a better idea on how to save our souls and the souls of others, as long as the superior does not command sin. He goes on to tell us that God is not pleased with our higher order of morality, but with out obedience and our charity toward authority. He then points to the Suffering Servant.

We are all called to be suffering servants at certain points in our lives. We’re not always going to get what we want or even what we know is best. But if like the Suffering Servant we obey, even unto the cross, we will get the very best in the end.
 
Not really. A laicized priest is one who is dispensed from his priestly obligations and commitments. It goes beyond not celebrating the sacraments. If the priest asked for the laicization, then he remains in good canonical standing with the Church. He can even get validly married in the Church. If the situation ever changed that he could return, such as being widowed without dependent children, the Church can reverse the dispensation.

If the priest is laicized for disciplinary reasons, he still remains in good canonical standing, can still marry validly, but he cannot ask to return.

A suspension is grave matter. Each time that you celebrate the sacraments, you sin. In a suspension, you lose your faculties, but you are not relieved of your priestly obligations. You must remain celibate. You continue bound to the LOTH and the life of prayer of a priest. You continue to be bound to a bishop or a religious superior under obedience.

In the case of the SSPX, part of the reason for their suspension is that they are not in communion with any legitimate Church authority. They have become an authority unto themselves. They claim that God is a higher authority than man. This is true. However, God does not carry the keys in his pocket. He gave them to a man who passes them down to his successors all the way down to Pope Francis. God’s authority is mediated through a man. Therefore, every deacon, priest and bishop must be in full communion with the See of Peter.

How is the unfortunate thinking of many people in the Traditionalist Movement. Many argue that folks like Fr. Hans Kung or the women in the LCSW are not in communion and they are allowed to roam around.

The truth is quite different. They are in communion. Communion is determined by the Church. One may be in error, as has been the case of Fr. Kung and some of the Sisters, but the Church still has their obedience. When the Church commands them in areas where they must obey, they have grudgingly complied. Yes, they have whined, complained, criticized and whatever else an overgrown child can do. But at the end of the day, they comply.

For example, when Fr. Kung lost his license to teach Catholic theology, he complied. He no longer teaches at any Catholic school, nor does he present himself as a formal Catholic theologian. He presents himself as a theologian who is Catholic. That’s allowed.

When the sisters were told that the LCWR has to be reconstructed, they whined, complained and did all those things that overage adolescents do, but they are complying with the bishop appointed to work with them. They may not be happy campers. That’s not a requirement for communion.

The requirement is submission when you’re told to submit. Unless you’re being asked to violate the 10 Commandments, there is no reason for you not to submit.

St. Francis wrote in our admonitions that we are to submit, even if we have a better idea on how to save our souls and the souls of others, as long as the superior does not command sin. He goes on to tell us that God is not pleased with our higher order of morality, but with out obedience and our charity toward authority. He then points to the Suffering Servant.

We are all called to be suffering servants at certain points in our lives. We’re not always going to get what we want or even what we know is best. But if like the Suffering Servant we obey, even unto the cross, we will get the very best in the end.
Information that is accurate, relevant and presented in a spirit of love, from this poster and from some others, too. This is why I love CAF.
 
Not really. A laicized priest is one who is dispensed from his priestly obligations and commitments. It goes beyond not celebrating the sacraments. If the priest asked for the laicization, then he remains in good canonical standing with the Church. He can even get validly married in the Church. If the situation ever changed that he could return, such as being widowed without dependent children, the Church can reverse the dispensation.

If the priest is laicized for disciplinary reasons, he still remains in good canonical standing, can still marry validly, but he cannot ask to return.

A suspension is grave matter. Each time that you celebrate the sacraments, you sin. In a suspension, you lose your faculties, but you are not relieved of your priestly obligations. You must remain celibate. You continue bound to the LOTH and the life of prayer of a priest. You continue to be bound to a bishop or a religious superior under obedience.

In the case of the SSPX, part of the reason for their suspension is that they are not in communion with any legitimate Church authority. They have become an authority unto themselves. They claim that God is a higher authority than man. This is true. However, God does not carry the keys in his pocket. He gave them to a man who passes them down to his successors all the way down to Pope Francis. God’s authority is mediated through a man. Therefore, every deacon, priest and bishop must be in full communion with the See of Peter.

How is the unfortunate thinking of many people in the Traditionalist Movement. Many argue that folks like Fr. Hans Kung or the women in the LCSW are not in communion and they are allowed to roam around.

The truth is quite different. They are in communion. Communion is determined by the Church. One may be in error, as has been the case of Fr. Kung and some of the Sisters, but the Church still has their obedience. When the Church commands them in areas where they must obey, they have grudgingly complied. Yes, they have whined, complained, criticized and whatever else an overgrown child can do. But at the end of the day, they comply.

For example, when Fr. Kung lost his license to teach Catholic theology, he complied. He no longer teaches at any Catholic school, nor does he present himself as a formal Catholic theologian. He presents himself as a theologian who is Catholic. That’s allowed.

When the sisters were told that the LCWR has to be reconstructed, they whined, complained and did all those things that overage adolescents do, but they are complying with the bishop appointed to work with them. They may not be happy campers. That’s not a requirement for communion.

The requirement is submission when you’re told to submit. Unless you’re being asked to violate the 10 Commandments, there is no reason for you not to submit.

St. Francis wrote in our admonitions that we are to submit, even if we have a better idea on how to save our souls and the souls of others, as long as the superior does not command sin. He goes on to tell us that God is not pleased with our higher order of morality, but with out obedience and our charity toward authority. He then points to the Suffering Servant.

We are all called to be suffering servants at certain points in our lives. We’re not always going to get what we want or even what we know is best. But if like the Suffering Servant we obey, even unto the cross, we will get the very best in the end.
That was very enlightening. Thank you, Brother. 🙂
 
I appreciate the comment earlier. In my experience a lot of the problems we habe with priests and religious is partly caused by a failure to exhibit due obedience. With the SSPX, we can see this. But this discussion reminded me of an incident a few days ago where a certain Jesuit was asked to leave the Order. His ministry was not necessarily problematic. What was problematic was his refusal, over a period of three years, to be sent to another mission by his superiors. Now with Jesuits, they are supposed to be available for mission per the direction of their superiors. So he acted with a disobedience even more horrifying.

But we need to pray for the misguided, because sometimes that’s all we can do.
 
I appreciate the comment earlier. In my experience a lot of the problems we habe with priests and religious is partly caused by a failure to exhibit due obedience. With the SSPX, we can see this. But this discussion reminded me of an incident a few days ago where a certain Jesuit was asked to leave the Order. His ministry was not necessarily problematic. What was problematic was his refusal, over a period of three years, to be sent to another mission by his superiors. Now with Jesuits, they are supposed to be available for mission per the direction of their superiors. So he acted with a disobedience even more horrifying.

But we need to pray for the misguided, because sometimes that’s all we can do.
The red is mine.

I think that there are two sides to this.

On the one side, there are religious who need to get it together when it comes to obedience. They operate out of a democratic mindset and religious life is a Socialist Democracy, not an American type of democracy.

On the other side, there are laymen who have a serious misunderstanding of religious obedience. They don’t understand when it is that religious are supposed to obey, whom they’re supposed to obey, how they show obedience or what are the limits of authority.

I think that some of it comes from days gone by when there was an abuse of obedience in religious houses. The laity, not knowing that superiors were abusing their power, believed that this was the way things were meant to be. Other people have seen The Bells of St. Mary’s one time too often . . . a beautiful movie, but a very bad representation of religious life even then. The one part of that movie where I cringed was when Father O’Malley got involved in Sister Benedict’s transfer. That would never have happened. Father was a secular priest and sister was a consecrated religious. He could not cross over into that turf. That has not been allowed since Trent. But I know people who saw this and today wonder why religious don’t submit to pastors or to diocesan priests. The answer is simple. We never did.
 
This is an interesting thread… I do not belong to the SSPX but I have recently switched to the FSSP and no longer attend the NOM and not for fuzzy, mushy, touchy feely reasons, but purely doctorinal ones.

What I find interesting in this discussion is the lack of stating the reasons why the SSPX is in the state that it is in, what ever that may be.

Have any of you gone back to 1965 and tried to understand what exactly transpired from both sides? What exactly has SSPX done that is contrary to the Catholic Faith?

Is it the fact that they defiently adhere to the Traditional Catholic Faith as it was taught for 2000 years?

Perhaps it is their abandonment of Ecuminism, which the entire Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught is heresy?

Perhaps it is the fact that they still offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Tradional Latin Rite, the Mass that EVEN by Pope John II and Benedict XVI say was never abrogated?

Is it because their semenaires are so full that they have to turn away young men for lack of room?

What evil has the SSPX done?

John
 
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