Fulfilled Prophecy

[Filthy_Tugboat]

I don’t think that there is any question that the OT precedes the NT.

As far as i’m aware not every prophecy in the OT is concerned with the events in the NT.

So, no I don’t think that specific dates are important for the immediate question

Why not? If we cannot verify that the prophecy was made before the event occurred then why consider it a fulfilled prophecy? It could just as easily be someone claiming prophetic powers after fabricating the story of the prophecy after the event occurred. Or the event may never have occurred and a myth was passed through so many generations it formed into a legend in their eyes, or perhaps someone straight up lied. These issues persist for all religious texts, not just that of the Bible and since you believe other religious texts are false then you would probably believe that they are false for one of the reasons I just wrote about. Why not try to defend your religion from people that think it too is based on lies and misinformation?

nor would I for the veracity of any individual book, because there are 72 other independently written books that tell essentially the same story.

By “essentially the same story” I presume you mean that they all go along with the theme of the creator God that is prevalent in the Abrahamic religions? This does not draw any meaningful conclusions about the authenticity of the book as everybody that wrote for the book was (as far as I know) aware of the previous writers, they were aware of the Jewish tradition. So you would expect those that are writing of a God and his deeds would write of the God they believe in.

Nor does intentional fulfillment alone invalidate a prophecy.

Not necessarily but it certainly raises questions as to whether it is actually a supernatural endowment as the future need not be known by the individual making the prophecy if someone comes along, reads the prophecy and sets out to fulfill it.

If a man knows that prophecy X was made at some time in the past and then makes it come true, prophecy X was fulfilled. the future was accurately predicted. No problem

Yes but this removes any supernatural qualities of the prophecy, it still may be from God for all In know but now there is a naturalistic explanation that completely explains it.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Well, its too hard to talk about all the prophecies in the Bible all at once. We shouldn’t lump them all together, because it doesn’t work. I think it would be much more fruitful to pull out one prophecy from the old testament, show when it was prophesied, and then show how it was later fulfilled.

That is exactly what i hope to do, right now we are discussing the criteria to use when analyzing the prophecies.

We must also remember that faith IS a choice, and not usually based on previous experiences.

I doubt that. Many that are raised in theistic communities are taught from a young age the value of faith in God, they are also taught that God exists. When someone is encouraged for that long, their ‘faith’ appears to be knowledge to them and it most certainly is due to previous experience. Note, this has nothing to do with whether the religion is correct or not, it just proposes that even faith is a result of prior experience.

There are others not raised within theistic communities that adopt religious faith and often they are convinced of such by reason, I see many converts happy to present the Cosmological argument, the Teleological argument and many others that are positions often arrived to by reason rather than faith. Although I disagree with both of those arguments, they do much more convincing than someone just deciding with no prior conviction to have faith in a God. Desperation is actually a motive that plays a part for some, as is depression, loneliness and others. But I find the most common motive to be reason.

We must also understand that accepting the truth of the Bible at face value is not “blindly following,” but merely agreeing with a multi-thousand year tradition that has withstood centuries of doubt and rational argument against it. Even in the absence of secondary sources, this is not a “blind” position.

I don’t recall suggesting that it was.

On the other hand, doubting the veracity of the events in the Bible in spite of the precedence without researching the dates and prophecies beforehand could easily be considered an slightly arrogant case of “blind doubt!”

I’m lucky that I have researched the topic but I never feel comfortable shoving my opinions and the things I’ve learnt down other peoples throats so I thought I’d let others take up the challenge and present prophecies they think have been fulfilled and perhaps I can be shown wrong, I am very open to that concept and quite enjoy the learning process that always follows my realization of incorrect beliefs.

Well anyways, I know there are LOTS of prophesies fulfilled by Jesus. Perhaps someone can suggest one to look into and see what comes up?
Here is a list of prophecies fulfilled: godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html

I don’t think it’s complete, or if its even a good list, but it’s a start!

I would much prefer to do them one at a time, if you agree to the criteria I presented for analysis, you are free to present a prophecy yourself, i would gladly analyze it with you.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

My point accepted the mathematical information you put forth and still worked against your claims of the possibility to live in a city the size of Texas, I have conceded that you could cram that many people into Texas but that many people certainly could not live in Texas by any meaningful definition of the term ‘live’.

Since it is the same density as New York City, and only a fraction of the density of places like Hong Kong, Singapore, London, etc. The fact is that everyone on the planet could live comfortably in an area the size of Texas…and they can all have lives just as meaningful as the people that live NYC. The math says I am right, the empirical evidence says I am right. Don’t those things matter to you?

 

[Garyjohn2]

I would much prefer to do them one at a time, if you agree to the criteria I presented for analysis, you are free to present a prophecy yourself, i would gladly analyze it with you.

Cool! Well, I am not so sure about all the criteria. Let’s look at one rather simple prophesy to test some the criteria, and what is acceptable to you as proof or not, and how they facilitate the discussion…for the purpose of mutual learning! Perhaps this will give us a better understanding of what you are looking for, and provide good conversation.

Lets look at the Book of Psalms. Most of them were written by King David, who lived from 1037BC - 967 BC. However, some of them were written later, after the exile to Babylon, in 539 BC. Safe to say they were all written well before Christ. But is this safe to say? Under your criteria, do we need secondary sources to back this up? I am not sure. Jewish peoples used the Psalms in their worship at the time of Christ, and Christ quoted from them. Is this sufficient? It might not be, because I’ll need an outside source to verify that ancient Jews during the time of Christ used the Psalms in worship. I just don’t have that source. I know it is true, and the historical proof exists, but I just don’t have it at hand. Is this something we can move forward with, or would this alone violate the criteria for discussion? Is wikipedia or other internet sources allowed as “proof”, or are only peer-reviewed academic articles acceptable. Even those can be disputed though…perhaps only peer-reviewed academic articles that are based on archeological evidence? That is a very narrow and difficult criteria to fulfill, so it would be an arduous discussion. I don’t think that’s what you meant by proof, and I’m being a little bit silly, so I’ll just continue and assume we can agree that the Psalms were written before Christ lived.

So, now the prophesy.
Psalms 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

This prophesy is understood to refer to Jesus, who was rejected by the religious leaders of the time, but became a “head stone of the corner” (important foundation stone) of a new faith. The part about Jesus becoming the cornerstone of a new faith cannot be disputed, in my mind. How do we know he was rejected though? Well, there are the four gospel accounts that say as much. There are also records of the early followers of Jesus being persecuted (roman records, Josephus the historian, Acts of the Apostles, ect). Can we imply by proxy that if the early Christians were rejected, that Jesus himself was also rejected in his time? Seems reasonable, but hard to prove with hard evidence. However, we know Jesus was crucified (as recorded in numerous ancient writings) and crucifixion was reserved for the worst kind of political criminals and deviants. This should suffice to know he was rejected, I think.

But how do we know that this prophesy is even about Jesus? Aren’t there other people who were rejected and then became leaders? Yes, there were. Some support for this verse being about Jesus: It is a Jewish religious prophesy, and Jesus was a Jewish religious leader. I can’t think of any other Jewish religious leaders that were rejected and then became cornerstones, besides Christian Jews (peter, paul, ect) but these leaders were not hailed as messiahs, and they gave credit to Christ for this prophesy. Also, the numerous other prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus (not yet discussed) would imply that this one is also about Jesus. The rest is faith and tradition…which are also valid proofs, but perhaps not accepted as such by others. We have tradition that goes back very far attributing this prophesy to Christ, and we have faith that Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament in general.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

As far as i’m aware not every prophecy in the OT is concerned with the events in the NT.

All the Messianic Prophecies do as far as I am aware.

Why not? If we cannot verify that the prophecy was made before the event occurred then why consider it a fulfilled prophecy?

If you wish claim that the book a prophecy is made in does not precede the book it is fulfilled in, then feel free to do so. Did you have a book in mind or is this theoretical?

By “essentially the same story” I presume you mean that they all go along with the theme of the creator God that is prevalent in the Abrahamic religions? This does not draw any meaningful conclusions about the authenticity of the book as everybody that wrote for the book was (as far as I know) aware of the previous writers, they were aware of the Jewish tradition. So you would expect those that are writing of a God and his deeds would write of the God they believe in.

They were writing of a G-d they saw, A G-d they experienced. Not simply one they believed in but one who interacted person after person over over centuries forming a coherent narrative that is mathematically verifiable when examined as a whole. If you want to claim that a bunch of tribal people colluded together through slavery, war, massacres, and all the rotten history the Jews have suffered, with no particular motivation. That would take a good bit of evidence.
Even if the OT Prophecies were complete lies, told by evil mad men who managed to create a conspiracy covering thousands of years and the movement of entire civilizations, just for fun. Even if it were a complete con. The mathematics still holds up.

Not necessarily but it certainly raises questions as to whether it is actually a supernatural endowment as the future need not be known by the individual making the prophecy if someone comes along, reads the prophecy and sets out to fulfill it.

Yes but this removes any supernatural qualities of the prophecy, it still may be from God for all In know but now there is a naturalistic explanation that completely explains it.

If you want to make a claim of collusion at some point feel free.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Since it is the same density as New York City, and only a fraction of the density of places like Hong Kong, Singapore, London, etc. The fact is that everyone on the planet could live comfortably in an area the size of Texas…and they can all have lives just as meaningful as the people that live NYC. The math says I am right, the empirical evidence says I am right. Don’t those things matter to you?

You are ignoring my objections, NYC is small enough that it can be a reasonable distance away from industrial areas, whereas the city that you are proposing would have to be 345 times the size of NYC which would subsequently make the metropolis too far from the industry and agriculture to adequately supply them. The area surrounding the city would be hundreds of miles in diameter and it still wouldn’t adequately supply the city.

Let’s continue this debate in the other thread.

 

[joe370]

Hey TugBoat, let me try and attempt to get an idea of what is and is not acceptable to you, regarding fulfilled prophecy:

Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:7
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD

In the book of Isaiah, chapter 53, Isaiah, the prophet wrote about a servant of God. Christians believe that this was a prophecy about the life of Jesus Christ, who lived hundreds of years after the time of Isaiah. In Isaiah 53:7, the prophet said that the servant would be afflicted and accused, and that he would remain silent like a lamb being led to slaughter. As explained in Matthew 27:12-14, which was recorded about 700 years after the time of Isaiah, this is what happened to Jesus. He was falsely accused but remained silent and did not protest the accusations. Jesus was crucified by the Romans a short time later.

Isaiah 53:7:

“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”

Obviously you and I were not there to know, with certainty or empirically, whether or not a man named Jesus, circa AD 31, actually existed and fulfilled the words of the prophet Isaiah, another man we cannot prove existed in the 8th century with certainty or empirically, which was why Paul wrote, “we walk by faith, not by sight” - meaning that even though we do not see God, nevertheless we believe.

Since this event cannot be shown, empirically that is, to have actually happened, like for example the creation of the universe or the creation of gravity or the creation of the earth’s magnetic field, I am assuming that this prophecy would not qualify - correct?

Hello, I am starting this thread in order to avoid sidetracking another thread and it is to verify these claims:

In order to verify the truth of these claims certain criterion will need to be met with the presentation of each prophecy. They are as follows:

1. The prophecy must be clear and unambiguous.
2. The event must be a complete fulfillment of the prediction.
3. The event must be shown to have actually happened.
4. The prophecy must have happened before the event.
5. The event must not have been artificially created by a person who knew of the prophecy, with the intent of fulfilling it.
6. The prophecy must not have been a logical guess.

For further explanation on this criteria, feel free to read it in it’s original form here.

Do you agree to these criteria? If not, why?

Is there any criteria that should be added?

If the criteria is acceptable, pleas begin to present prophecies and the proofs that they have been fulfilled. I also would like to make a note that most of the Biblical books authenticity is unknown and claiming that because the Bible says it happened and that it happened at a certain time is unreliable, you need to confirm that these things happened when they are claimed in the Bible with supporting evidence. This is history for you and this is how claims of historicity are evaluated.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Lets look at the Book of Psalms. Most of them were written by King David, who lived from 1037BC - 967 BC.

I realise that the dates of Psalms is irrelevant to what you are claiming is the fulfillment of this prophecy as we know that they were written well before the new Testament so even if you were off by 500 years(I’m not saying that you are) it still would be considered prophecy. But I will use this to demonstrate a point, can you beyond any reasonable doubt demonstrate with evidence that King David did write these verses and did live around this time? This is along the theme of what some of the prophecies will require as some may have been written after the events occurred and claimed to have been written beforehand.

However, some of them were written later, after the exile to Babylon, in 539 BC. Safe to say they were all written well before Christ. But is this safe to say? Under your criteria, do we need secondary sources to back this up?

I generally do expect information as to how you reached your conclusion of the dates these prophecies were written but I’m confident that the dates of Psalms is accurate to what you are saying.

Is this something we can move forward with, or would this alone violate the criteria for discussion?

It is fine in this case as we both agree to the dates you propose.

Is wikipedia or other internet sources allowed as “proof”, or are only peer-reviewed academic articles acceptable.

There are many well sourced Wikipedia articles, if you feel it necessary, you can use the sources Wikipedia links to.

I don’t think that’s what you meant by proof, and I’m being a little bit silly, so I’ll just continue and assume we can agree that the Psalms were written before Christ lived.

We can agree to this and the ‘proof’ presented does not have to be quite so arduous.

So, now the prophesy.
Psalms 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

I disagree that this has anything to do with Jesus, to evaluate it in context it appears to suggest that this is not a prophecy.

22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.
24 The LORD has done it this very day;
let us rejoice today and be glad.

It implies that this ‘event’ has been performed today and the entire Psalm is concerned with David being persecuted and him ‘cutting his enemies down’. It appears a literal reading of this psalm makes more sense than expecting a metaphorical or figurative reading.

However, we know Jesus was crucified (as recorded in numerous ancient writings) and crucifixion was reserved for the worst kind of political criminals and deviants. This should suffice to know he was rejected, I think.

As far as I’m aware the Sanhedrin found Jesus guilty of blasphemy which would imply that Jesus’ teachings were rejected by the Jewish authorities of the time.

But how do we know that this prophesy is even about Jesus? Aren’t there other people who were rejected and then became leaders? Yes, there were. Some support for this verse being about Jesus: It is a Jewish religious prophesy, and Jesus was a Jewish religious leader. I can’t think of any other Jewish religious leaders that were rejected and then became cornerstones, besides Christian Jews (peter, paul, ect) but these leaders were not hailed as messiahs, and they gave credit to Christ for this prophesy.

This ‘prophecy’ does not make reference to a Messiah so claims of that nature are irrelevant. Paul especially could be considered the fulfillment of this ‘prophecy’, he is probably the most influential participant of the New Testament and is what many consider to be the cornerstone of the entire Christian religion. Without his influence Christianity would probably have remained a Jewish cult and never fully blossomed into it’s own religion. Many also believe this prophecy could have been fulfilled by John the baptist. This raises issues with the ambiguity of prophecies, they need to be precise if we are to truly regard them as prophecies or to regard them as fulfilled.

Also, the numerous other prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus (not yet discussed) would imply that this one is also about Jesus. The rest is faith and tradition…which are also valid proofs, but perhaps not accepted as such by others. We have tradition that goes back very far attributing this prophesy to Christ, and we have faith that Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament in general.

Until we further discuss the evidence for this prophecy I feel we shouldn’t conclude that it is Jesus.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

All the Messianic Prophecies do as far as I am aware.

I was unaware the intent here only concerned itself with the Messianic prophecies. If that is what you wish to focus on, then we can.

If you wish claim that the book a prophecy is made in does not precede the book it is fulfilled in, then feel free to do so. Did you have a book in mind or is this theoretical?

We have to be able to verify that what the book says is true before we can establish that a “prophecy has been fulfilled.” In order to do that we need to be able to ensure that what we have in records was not falsely recorded and that the dates are accurate.

They were writing of a G-d they saw, A G-d they experienced. Not simply one they believed in but one who interacted person after person over over centuries forming a coherent narrative

That’s the problem though, so do many other religious and mythic texts, why should we trust these claims over others?

that is mathematically verifiable when examined as a whole.

You keep saying verified mathematically but I am yet to see the method used to verify the probabilities.

If you want to claim that a bunch of tribal people colluded together through slavery, war, massacres, and all the rotten history the Jews have suffered, with no particular motivation. That would take a good bit of evidence.

I don’t recall saying that, the motivation for their religion and for their culture is powerful without having to call upon the supernatural. Also, there is a very patchy history of the Jews, what is claimed in the Bible often times lacks empirical support, especially of the Moses escapades.

Even if the OT Prophecies were complete lies, told by evil mad men who managed to create a conspiracy covering thousands of years and the movement of entire civilizations, just for fun. Even if it were a complete con. The mathematics still holds up.

What mathematics? You haven’t shown anything to support this assertion other than a quote about somebody else claiming mathematics supports the prophecies being fulfilled.

If you want to make a claim of collusion at some point feel free.

It is not necessarily a collusion because the person who fulfills the prophecy need not know the author of that prophecy, it simply raises doubt if the person fulfilling the prophecy was aware that the prophecy has been made.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Hey TugBoat, let me try and attempt to get an idea of what is and is not acceptable to you, regarding fulfilled prophecy:

Bible prophecy: Isaiah 53:7
Prophecy written: Between 701-681 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: About 31 AD

In the book of Isaiah, chapter 53, Isaiah, the prophet wrote about a servant of God. Christians believe that this was a prophecy about the life of Jesus Christ, who lived hundreds of years after the time of Isaiah. In Isaiah 53:7, the prophet said that the servant would be afflicted and accused, and that he would remain silent like a lamb being led to slaughter. As explained in Matthew 27:12-14, which was recorded about 700 years after the time of Isaiah, this is what happened to Jesus. He was falsely accused but remained silent and did not protest the accusations. Jesus was crucified by the Romans a short time later.

Isaiah 53:7:

Obviously you and I were not there to know, with certainty or empirically, whether or not a man named Jesus, circa AD 31, actually existed and fulfilled the words of the prophet Isaiah, another man we cannot prove existed in the 8th century with certainty or empirically, which was why Paul wrote, “we walk by faith, not by sight” - meaning that even though we do not see God, nevertheless we believe.

Since this event cannot be shown, empirically that is, to have actually happened, like for example the creation of the universe or the creation of gravity or the creation of the earth’s magnetic field, I am assuming that this prophecy would not qualify - correct?

This prophecy is not necessarily something that requires supernatural insight though. A man being falsely accused, beaten and battered and remaining silent is not unheard of in such harsh times. The brutality the Romans often executed on their slaves was quite brutal and such the chances of this occurring are high regardless of if a supernatural being wills it to happen. A man being silent through torture is not unheard of although it is rare, a 700 year expanse of time makes this extremely likely to have occurred before and after it happened to Jesus.

And yes, without evidence to support the claims of this prophecies dates and it’s contents skepticism of it’s authenticity is warranted.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

You are ignoring my objections, NYC is small enough that it can be a reasonable distance away from industrial areas, whereas the city that you are proposing would have to be 345 times the size of NYC which would subsequently make the metropolis too far from the industry and agriculture to adequately supply them. The area surrounding the city would be hundreds of miles in diameter and it still wouldn’t adequately supply the city.

Let’s continue this debate in the other thread.

A completely made up fairy tale. Making up a story doesn’t invalidate the math I already showed you.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

A completely made up fairy tale. Making up a story doesn’t invalidate the math I already showed you.

We should continue this debate in the other thread.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

We have to be able to verify that what the book says is true before we can establish that a “prophecy has been fulfilled.” In order to do that we need to be able to ensure that what we have in records was not falsely recorded and that the dates are accurate.

The fact that we have 73 different witness statements documenting a coherent relationship between two parties over the course of millennium is sufficient for me to give credence to the idea that such a relationship occurred. If you want to claim that some book was written after the fulfillment of the prophecy it records, or that they are faked in some way, then you will need to present evidence. Unsubstantiated claims concerning the veracity as

That’s the problem though, so do many other religious and mythic texts, why should we trust these claims over others?

Because they can be mathematically verified by the Messianic Prophecies, as I have repeatedly pointed out.

You keep saying verified mathematically but I am yet to see the method used to verify the probabilities.

What do you mean by “verify the probabilities”?

I don’t recall saying that, the motivation for their religion and for their culture is powerful without having to call upon the supernatural…

This statement is a claim that they colluded because they shared a religion. Do you have any evidence this happened?

What mathematics? You haven’t shown anything to support this assertion other than a quote about somebody else claiming mathematics supports the prophecies being fulfilled.

That’s what I am referring to. The book I cited.

It is not necessarily a collusion because the person who fulfills the prophecy need not know the author of that prophecy, it simply raises doubt if the person fulfilling the prophecy was aware that the prophecy has been made.

If you want to make a claim of collusion, then offer evidence.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Hey Tugboat, thanks for analyzing my presentation of that particular prophesy from Psalms. The major disagreement we have here is your interpretation of what the cornerstone is, and my view that you are taking the verse too literally…and only literally.

Have you ever read poetry? The world of poetry is a much different world than history and philosophy and such. Words have more than one meaning, and phrases aren’t always what they seem at first glance. The Bible is full of allusion, hyperbole, symbolism, and allegory. No part of the Bible is more poetic than the book of Psalms.

I am sorry, you will probably not find any prophecies that are as specific, exacting, and literal (on the surface) as you would like.

The Bible, as the word of God, is infinitely complex. Yes, infinite!

The stone which the builders rejected has become the corner stone. It is marvelous, and it was done today. This was true for David (or whoever the author is) but it is also transcendent through time. It is true today. Is not Jesus still rejected? Is he not still a corner stone? It is marvelous, and it was done today! It was also be done tomorrow.

It is important to read the Bible not as a history book. It is historically accurate, but isn’t a history book. It is a love letter from God this his people. It is poetry, history, parable, and prose. Sometimes it is all those things at once. Also, it is transcendent through time and place.

The universe itself, and all of creation, is the same way. It’s full of symbols and patterns that repeat and transcend time. The Bible is no different, and you will miss out if you try to read it only one way!

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

The fact that we have 73 different witness statements documenting a coherent relationship between two parties over the course of millennium is sufficient for me to give credence to the idea that such a relationship occurred. If you want to claim that some book was written after the fulfillment of the prophecy it records, or that they are faked in some way, then you will need to present evidence. Unsubstantiated claims concerning the veracity as

You seem to miss the point of this debate. I am not proposing that they are wrong, I am asking for you to show that they are right. And your claim that they are witness productions is notably false, the Gospels were not written by witnesses, nor was Genesis, can you show that any of the books were produced by actual witnesses of the stories they propose? This is what we are trying to analyze, the authenticity and credibility of the Bible, you cannot do that honestly if you charge in and set a criteria that the Bible is correct on everything it states, that removes the whole purpose of analysis and achieves nothing other than ensuring circular reasoning.

Because they can be mathematically verified by the Messianic Prophecies, as I have repeatedly pointed out.

Yes repeatedly pointed out but never supported with the mathematical proof you suggest exists.

What do you mean by “verify the probabilities”?

I want to know how the man you quote reached his conclusions, I want to verify the probabilities he says are true.

This statement is a claim that they colluded because they shared a religion. Do you have any evidence this happened?

You are going to have to cite individuals because I recall many of the ‘prophets’ calling upon ‘God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’

That’s what I am referring to. The book I cited.

I realise this, you cited the an article that cited the book but neither of which actually presented the mathematical work performed they both just said, “this mathematician concluded that the probabilities of the prophecies coming true is extremely unlikely”

How did he reach his conclusion? Can you present me with the work he performed? If you cannot, why should I trust yours or his claims?

If you want to make a claim of collusion, then offer evidence.

Before we can claim collusion we have to be given the prophecy, I am suggesting that collusion is a possibility if the person that ‘fulfills’ the ‘prophecy’ was aware of the ‘prophecy’ and specifically set out to fulfill it. So, present a prophecy and then we can discuss collusion.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Hey Tugboat, thanks for analyzing my presentation of that particular prophesy from Psalms. The major disagreement we have here is your interpretation of what the cornerstone is, and my view that you are taking the verse too literally…and only literally.

Have you ever read poetry? The world of poetry is a much different world than history and philosophy and such. Words have more than one meaning, and phrases aren’t always what they seem at first glance. The Bible is full of allusion, hyperbole, symbolism, and allegory. No part of the Bible is more poetic than the book of Psalms.

I am well aware of that, that also makes it difficult to claim prophecy as with allusions, symbolism and allegory interpretation can vary quite significantly.

I am sorry, you will probably not find any prophecies that are as specific, exacting, and literal (on the surface) as you would like.

The Bible, as the word of God, is infinitely complex. Yes, infinite!

Presuming that it is in fact the word of God of course.

The stone which the builders rejected has become the corner stone. It is marvelous, and it was done today. This was true for David (or whoever the author is) but it is also transcendent through time. It is true today. Is not Jesus still rejected? Is he not still a corner stone? It is marvelous, and it was done today! It was also be done tomorrow.

Many also reject Paul and the teachings of John the Baptist and many other religious figureheads. Many could be considered cornerstones this is the problem with the claim of the prophecy, it is unclear and ambiguous.

It is important to read the Bible not as a history book. It is historically accurate, but isn’t a history book.

It is doubtful that the Bible is historically accurate, many of it’s claims do not hold strong, the Moses escapades through Egypt and through Canaan are unlikely to be true as it is not supported by any extra biblical sources where the information should be present, the 10 plagues is one of the most notable stories that has no evidence to support it and there most certainly should giving the devastation it cost a nation. I can assure you, no Pharaohs were magically killed by walls of water collapsing on them. The Genesis flood is another big one that is guaranteed to be false when historically analyzed. These might be allegory and metaphoric, I know many that believe them to be such. Genesis not even being claimed to have been written by a witness is most likely mythical in nature, probably borrowing it’s origins from the Sumerian culture and religion, some believe it was written by the author of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy and this is probably true due to the similar language patterns across all of the books but given that is supposedly 2,000 years after the events described, it’s claims are not historically reliable.

There are many in the Bible that are potentially if not probably false, and the only way forward is to debate the issue and see if we can’t learn about of each others insight.

It is a love letter from God this his people. It is poetry, history, parable, and prose. Sometimes it is all those things at once. Also, it is transcendent through time and place.

Gonna have to disagree, it might say these things but the point of this analysis is to analyze whether or not these claims are true.

The universe itself, and all of creation, is the same way. It’s full of symbols and patterns that repeat and transcend time. The Bible is no different, and you will miss out if you try to read it only one way!

I have encountered and listened to many different interpretations of the Bible, both from theistic and Non-theist perspectives and I don’t find the theistic interpretation to hold weight. I maintain that the strongest evidence for the supernatural is personal evidence and that evidence only relates to the individuals. I can’t discount God and I don’t plan to, all I can say is that i do not believe what you believe and have found no compelling reason to do so.

 

[Garyjohn2]

I can’t discount God and I don’t plan to, all I can say is that i do not believe what you believe and have found no compelling reason to do so.

Ok! Well, this is how most of these discussions go…the 2 parties coming from such different angles that they completely miss each other. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss though! I hope things go well in the future.

 

[Garyjohn2]

I can assure you, no Pharaohs were magically killed by walls of water collapsing on them. The Genesis flood is another big one that is guaranteed to be false when historically analyzed.

There are many in the Bible that are potentially if not probably false…

(emphasis mine)

By the way, these are VERY strong statements, and you’ll need secondary sources to back them up. Remember that the lack of evidence is not evidence in itself, and there is evidence of the flood (for a different thread perhaps).

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

(emphasis mine)

By the way, these are VERY strong statements, and you’ll need secondary sources to back them up. Remember that the lack of evidence is not evidence in itself

It is in some cases and most certainly is here. We have every reason to expect hundreds of reports on the 10 plagues and most certainly of the Pharaoh’s death.

and there is evidence of the flood (for a different thread perhaps).

No, many creation sites tell everybody that there is but there is no possible way that the flood could have occurred as described in Genesis. I can list many of the problems here. First the aquatic and plant life would be almost completely destroyed from the mix of salt and fresh water and the pressure the flood caused. Two animals is not enough to restart an entire species as the breeding issues cause massive deformities. Animals could not arrive at the ark from other continents. The water is supposedly higher than the tip of every mountain which would subsequently make the air unbreathable, it is also too cold at that altitude and would freeze everything to death, the food shortage on the ark could not have been reconciled naturally. All of this aside, I’m sure one could say that, sure God could reconcile all of those problems by using his supernatural abilities, at which point I would say, why the hell did he do it in the first place, it makes no sense to kill everyone and everything because he’s unhappy with humans. If he really though the humans were a problem why not just kill them?

But yes, this is probably material for a different thread.

 

[joe370]

This prophecy is not necessarily something that requires supernatural insight though. A man being falsely accused, beaten and battered and remaining silent is not unheard of in such harsh times. The brutality the Romans often executed on their slaves was quite brutal and such the chances of this occurring are high regardless of if a supernatural being wills it to happen. A man being silent through torture is not unheard of although it is rare, a 700 year expanse of time makes this extremely likely to have occurred before and after it happened to Jesus.

And yes, without evidence to support the claims of this prophecies dates and it’s contents skepticism of it’s authenticity is warranted.

I think I understand. Regarding prophecy, you are looking for verifiable, empirical, irrefutable proof that said prophecy was fulfilled by a man named Jesus Christ, and of course you are also looking for verifiable, empirical, irrefutable proof that Jesus existed as well, totally negating any need for faith, even though, in the face of such proof, people would still disbelieve, as I am sure you know? That’s cool! I used to be the same way. I asked the same questions regarding atheism and the origin of the universe… That whole bit about the universe being infinite and possessing design beyond mankind’s comprehension, with no need of an infinite designer of course, really frustrated me to the point of realizing I needed much more faith to be an atheist, but I digress friend… I will take one more stab at it:

Based on my research, it seems that crucification, by way of cross, was brought into use about 500 BC by the Persians and then the Carthaginians, and in the the 4th BC Alexander the Great is believed to have spread the use of crucifixion to Egypt, and the Roman Empire eventually adopted it.

King David, (coupled with the exact detail of the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22) - author of the following Psalm 22, lived in the 11th century and prophesied, long before the use of crucification, the following:

“Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment…”

Isaiah, in the 8th century, predicted (Isaiah 9:5-7) - that king David’s kingdom would be established forever just as king David, in the 11th century, was told by God, but how could David have known that the Messiah would die in such a manner - piercing of the hands and feet?