Fulfilment of old testament prophecy

[Ilija]

First I want to point out that I did read THIS thread but it doesn’t answer my question.

Here is a verse from Mt 5:17

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.”

Also Here is a verse from Mt 24:15

“When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)"

The church teaches us that OT eschatology has been fulfilled by the coming of Jesus, and we know Jesus told OT has been fulfilled in Mt 5:17 (first quote), therefore that is clear.

However in Mt 24:15 (second quote) we clearly see Jesus is telling that prophecy of Daniel is “yet to happen.”

This is a contradiction because Jesus tells us it is fulfilled but also tells us it will happen.

Here is explanation which verses of Daniel are referenced in the book of revelation which are in line with Mt 24:15 that Jesus was referring to:

Dn 7,8b → Rev 13,5
Dn 7,9a → Rev 20,4a
Dn 7,9b → Rev 1,14
Dn 7,10b → Rev 5,11
Dn 7,10c → Rev 20,12
Dn 7,11 → Rev 19,20

We clearly see that Mt 24:15 is not only that Jesus said once, but also apostle Paul is referencing this in the book of revelation.

Question:

How can old testament be considered completely fulfilled if Daniel it was delayed for the second coming of Jesus?

How do we explain contradiction that Jesus is telling us?

Btw. I know the answer is that Jesus did not make a mistake here, because he tells in his quote in Mt 24:15 this:
"let the reader understand"

But unfortunately I do not understand, and it is the only part of old testament eschatology that is beyond my intelligence.

 

[Limoncello4021]

Jesus is indeed the fulfillment of all prophecy. However, while His kingdom is here, it is also “not yet.” That is, the complete fulfillment is still being unfolded. So it is not a contradiction at all. As St. Paul tells us, all creation “groans” as we wait for the fulfillment and the culmination of God’s plan. Thus, we pray in the Our Father: “thy Kingdom come.” It is both here and is coming. Yes, that’s a mystery…

 

[ColoradoCatholic]

Jesus doesn’t make mistakes…He IS GOD. This my be my personal opinion, but the bible is the inspired word of God. There are patterns, things that apply to all times. Things that happen today are very similar to things in the old testament and I do believe you can read any part of the bible and easily say “hey this event is happening right now! (in a similar manner)”.

I even believe that the book of Revelation can be applied to the period before Jesus came. Why is this? how can this be? because revelation is using imagery from the Old Testament anyways. That’s just it, the word is inspired and because of this, it is TRUTH for all times and all ages.

 

[BartholomewB]

The church teaches us that OT eschatology has been fulfilled by the coming of Jesus, and we know Jesus told OT has been fulfilled in Mt 5:17 (first quote), therefore that is clear.

However in Mt 24:15 (second quote) we clearly see Jesus is telling that prophecy of Daniel is “yet to happen.”

This is a contradiction because Jesus tells us it is fulfilled but also tells us it will happen.

I don’t see any contradiction. Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies about the coming of the Son of Man or the Messiah. But there are other OT prophecies , in addition to those. In this saying about the abomination of desolation (Matt 24:15) Jesus said that this particular prophecy of Daniel was going to be fulfilled at some future date.

 

[Crusader13]

However in Mt 24:15 (second quote) we clearly see Jesus is telling that prophecy of Daniel is “yet to happen.”

This is a contradiction because Jesus tells us it is fulfilled but also tells us it will happen.

Actually it’s only a contradiction when you try and read Matthew 24 as a still future event.

However, Matthew 24 is referring to the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. In Luke it tells us what the Abomination of desolation is.

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written.
Luke 21:20-22

 

[Ilija]

@ Limoncello4021

thus, we pray in the Our Father: “thy Kingdom come.” It is both here and is coming.

Very interesting!

@ ColoradoCatholic

I even believe that the book of Revelation can be applied to the period before Jesus came.

Can’t agree with that because first line of the book of revelation says:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon.

Rev 1:1

Not what happened already.

We can also see replication in old testament eschatology where prophets are inspired by their ancestors, it’s same with apostle Paul which was inspired by OT prophets which is just a partial answer but does not explicitly answer what Jesus was telling us.

@ BartholomewB

In this saying about the abomination of desolation (Matt 24:15) Jesus said that this particular prophecy of Daniel was going to be fulfilled at some future date.

Can’t agree with that because:

“When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled."

Luke 21:20

This has been fulfilled by occupation of Jerusalem several years later, it is what early Christians believed to be fulfillment, regardless Jesus clearly says “when all the scriptures are fulfilled” not just some scriptures but clearly ALL of them.

Guys do you think it’s valid to say that Jesus was referring to Daniel’s prophecy just as shorthand for imagery not as something that was not fulfilled?

I mean, Daniel was fully fulfilled by the coming of Jesus but Jesus is using Daniel to say that similarly to Daniel similar will happen? (not that Daniel is prophecy projected for times after Jesus)

The reasoning for that is, both OT eschatology, and NT eschatology are talking about very same thing, that is coming of our Lord.

 

[Ilija]

@ Crusader13

Very good!
that’s what I quoted while you were responding but didn’t see your reply, also didn’t realize the true meaning.

Also OT does not say death of Jesus is fulfillment it only says that Jesus will fulfill what is written about him, it’s a HUGE difference, for example:

He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”

Mt 2:15

"his was to fulfill what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet: “He Himself took our infirmities and carried away our diseases.”

Mt 8:17

But according to Luke 21:20-22 it was up to Jesus to tell when and what is to be fulfilled not to prophets which only partially answer the question.

And according to what Jesus said that was fulfilled not when he resurrected but when Jerusalem was occupied as it is told:

when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies

So can we safely conclude, that Jesus was using Daniel to say that similar to Daniel will happen not that Daniel prophecy is the actual fulfillment for ALL the scriptures?

Or can we say that Daniel was fulfilled by Luke 21:20-22 which is what Jesus was talking about in Mt 24:15?

To me it looks like both conclusions are valid, but just one can be true.

EDIT:
@ BartholomewB

I see what you meant to say now, sorry for confusion.

 

[Crusader13]

So can we safely conclude, that Jesus was using Daniel to say that similar to Daniel will happen not that Daniel prophecy is the actual fulfillment for ALL the scriptures?

Or can we say that Daniel was fulfilled by Luke 21:20-22 which is what Jesus was talking about in Mt 24:15?

Well I guess it would depend on which section of Daniel you’re referring to. But Daniel is primarily about the coming Kingdom of Christ and this is seen in climax in chapter 7, when Daniel foretells of Jesus’ ascension to the Father. So much of what Daniel is prophesying about is in relation to the destruction of the Old Testament age and the coming New Testament age.

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are bringing to light this prophecy of Daniel. What Christ is telling his audience is that they would see the fulfillment of this prophecy in their lifetime.

The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem was the sign that Jesus was ruling in Heaven at the right hand of the Father and the Old covenant had given way to the New. The new Kingdom is the Church.

 

[Ilija]

Jesus doesn’t make mistakes…He IS GOD.

I accidently omitted word “NOT” and wrote “Jesus did made a mistake”, but what I really wanted to write is “Jesus did not made a mistake”

I corrected my first post

 

[pitbull]

I am not Catholic so I don’t know the reasons you might have to think OT prophecy is fulfilled. In Matt 5 Jesus say He comes not to destroy the Law and Prophets but to fulfill . He goes on to say…

17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

I see no reason based on what Jesus says to think OT prophecies are all fulfilled. But they all will be.
One of my favorite unfulfilled OT prophecies is Zech 12-14. It ends with what I believe is the 2nd coming of Christ.

 

[Crusader13]

I see no reason based on what Jesus says to think OT prophecies are all fulfilled. But they all will be.

Well the problem usually arises when most, if not all, of the OT prophecies are interpreted as referring to the Second Coming or the end of the world. And depending on your religious beliefs, these two events could be one and the same thing.

The heavens and earth spoken of in Matthew 5 and again Matthew 24 and in 2 Peter 3 are not referring to the physical world but they are referring to the religious order of the world at that time. The heavens and earth that passed away were the Old Testament age of the Old covenant, which was contained in the Temple and in Jerusalem itself.

Their destruction signaled the passing away of that heaven and earth (The Old covenant) and brought about the new Heaven and Earth which is The Church, The new Kingdom of God.

 

[pitbull]

The heavens and earth spoken of in Matthew 5 and again Matthew 24 and in 2 Peter 3 are not referring to the physical world but they are referring to the religious order of the world at that time. The heavens and earth that passed away were the Old Testament age of the Old covenant, which was contained in the Temple and in Jerusalem itself.

Their destruction signaled the passing away of that heaven and earth (The Old covenant) and brought about the new Heaven and Earth which is The Church, The new Kingdom of God.

In the 2 verses I quoted from Matt 5 Jesus seems to consider the Law and Prophets truth. He did not come to fulfill something that is false did He?

17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

The first thing the Law says is

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

In 2 Peter 3 before Peter says anything about the destruction of the heavens and earth he says:

” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Peter’s heaven “existed long ago,” certainly before the flood, and his earth “was formed out of water and through water by the word of God” just like the one we read about in the first chapter of the Law. It is that heaven and earth that are, according to Peter, “stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”
I see no reason to define “heaven and earth” the way you do. In fact I see your definition as nonsense.

PS I do hope you get to see the Kingdom Christ will establish, I believe it will better than anything you see here on earth today.

 

[Crusader13]

In fact I see your definition as nonsense.

Don’t sugar coat it, tell me what you really think! lol

You’re completely misunderstanding the symbolism being used. The language of the stars, the moon and the sun, aren’t always literal in every passage.

In Isaiah he speaks about the fall of Babylon and Edom, using similar language.

Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light.
Isaiah 13:9-10

All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

Did the skies roll up like a scroll?! Obviously not.

Ezekiel also uses this symbolism when talking about the fall of Egypt.

When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens, and make their stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and put darkness upon your land, says the Lord God.
Ezekiel 32:7-8

The symbolism is referring to the fall of the ruling powers of the land at that time.

So when John sees a new Heaven and a new earth, he’s not talking about a new planet earth and a new Heaven. Heaven is already perfect in all it’s glory, so perfect that we can’t even comprehend it. So why the need for a new Heaven?!

I’m seeing the new Kingdom right now, because the new Kingdom is the Church!