Full intention to sign prenuptial agreement on finances

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Medical_Student

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Good Morning,

I originally for the past year have had the full intention to sign a pre-nuptial agreement due to familial wealth and land inheritance and my current career. Recently, I learned this may be a problem. Are there any Church teachings on this? To be quite honest, I am not sure I still would not have a future wife sign this line. I will not have someone who can do a 180 squander away my family (only son/child) and late father’s endowment and name. To me, it is far more a legal issue than anything else. The Western World is far different today than 100 years ago and things are very legalistic with women having an upper hand in many terms of marriage, such as child custody post-divorce. I am hardly “traditional” as commonly thought of on Catholic forums but very traditional in terms of who controls the wealth in a relationship as well as familial reputation or name. I have no intentions of ever having a divorce, but in case of her ever having that inclination (you never know), it appears to be something I will not budge on.

I am seeking authoritative teachings on this matter.
I am in the U.S. and live in NYC if anyone has any personal referrals RE: above.

Regards,

AT
 
Medical_Student said:
Good Morning,

I originally for the past year have had the full intention to sign a pre-nuptial agreement due to familial wealth and land inheritance and my current career. Recently, I learned this may be a problem. Are there any Church teachings on this? To be quite honest, I am not sure I still would not have a future wife sign this line. I will not have someone who can do a 180 squander away my family (only son/child) and late father’s endowment and name. To me, it is far more a legal issue than anything else. The Western World is far different today than 100 years ago and things are very legalistic with women having an upper hand in many terms of marriage, such as child custody post-divorce. I am hardly “traditional” as commonly thought of on Catholic forums but very traditional in terms of who controls the wealth in a relationship as well as familial reputation or name. I have no intentions of ever having a divorce, but in case of her ever having that inclination (you never know), it appears to be something I will not budge on.

I am seeking authoritative teachings on this matter.
I am in the U.S. and live in NYC if anyone has any personal referrals RE: above.

Regards,

AT
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What an odd understanding of marriage? Do you attribute it to our society?

A “prenup” can show grounds for annulment as it proves the marriagevwas entered into falsely by at least one party.
 
I’m not sure what you mean? I intend to have a perfectly Catholic marriage, I just want to remain solely in control of my and my families’ finances/estate. My mother has Alzheimer’s Disease. I am her durable power of attorney for finances and health. I have read that a prenup can show grounds for annulment. Hopefully, things would never go south that way. To reiterate, I am not going into marriage with any intention of divorce. Otherwise, what would be the point of marriage? There are hundreds of available women outside who could have a fling, no strings attached.

Regards,

AT
 
Medical_Student said:
I’m not sure what you mean? I intend to have a perfectly Catholic marriage, I just want to remain solely in control of my and my families’ finances/estate. My mother has Alzheimer’s Disease. I am her durable power of attorney for finances and health. I have read that a prenup can show grounds for annulment. Hopefully, things would never go south that way. To reiterate, I am not going into marriage with any intention of divorce. Otherwise, what would be the point of marriage? There are hundreds of available women outside who could have a fling, no strings attached.

Regards,

AT
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There are several things you are missing.
  1. You cannot separate your marriage from your family. “I want to remain solely in control if my finances” is not a marital statement if a husband and father.
  2. An annulment means a marriage did not exist.
Why in the world would you want to get married with the view you are taking?

What is marriage to you?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
There are several things you are missing.
  1. You cannot separate your marriage from your family. “I want to remain solely in control if my finances” is not a marital statement if a husband and father.
  2. An annulment means a marriage did not exist.
Why in the world would you want to get married with the view you are taking?

What is marriage to you?
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RE:
  1. I understand that many would disagree with that statement. However, I do not. And of course, this is not to say that anything would be hidden. In fact, a prenuptial agreement may be considered invalid if you do not disclose fully. My question is whether it was absolutely against Church teaching or prohibited. Not too long ago, men held complete control over the estate, for better or worse. Such marriages were obviously Catholic. And of course, I am referring to particulars here. It isn’t as if my wife will not have any money to spend.
Regards,

AT
 
Medical_Student said:
Good Morning,

I originally for the past year have had the full intention to sign a pre-nuptial agreement due to familial wealth and land inheritance and my current career. Recently, I learned this may be a problem. Are there any Church teachings on this? To be quite honest, I am not sure I still would not have a future wife sign this line. I will not have someone who can do a 180 squander away my family (only son/child) and late father’s endowment and name. To me, it is far more a legal issue than anything else. The Western World is far different today than 100 years ago and things are very legalistic with women having an upper hand in many terms of marriage, such as child custody post-divorce. I am hardly “traditional” as commonly thought of on Catholic forums but very traditional in terms of who controls the wealth in a relationship as well as familial reputation or name. I have no intentions of ever having a divorce, but in case of her ever having that inclination (you never know), it appears to be something I will not budge on.

I am seeking authoritative teachings on this matter.
I am in the U.S. and live in NYC if anyone has any personal referrals RE: above.

Regards,

AT
Click to expand...
Apologies for not having read the thread yet.

Your first stop would be a lawyer to find out what the law actually is in your jurisdiction.

In a lot of areas, property brought into marriage would not be deemed joint property, but doing certain things would turn that pre-marital property into joint property. But I see that you are in NY, where things are rather different.

So, talk to a lawyer.

However, bear in mind that your spouse is probably the person who is going to decide to have you unplugged or kept plugged in if you are incapacitated, and will need to have control of your property if/when you become unable to take care of yourself in order to provide appropriate care for you. I have a lot of neighbors and former neighbors who are/were little old ladies with even more elderly husbands with dementia/cancer/what-have-you. Setting things up so the little old ladies could not pay bills would be a bad idea.

It’s a reasonable question–if you trust a woman with your life, why would you not trust her with your money? And if you don’t trust her with your money, why would you trust her to make medical decisions for you–or your children for that matter?
 
Medical_Student said:
I intend to have a perfectly Catholic marriage, I just want to remain solely in control of my and my families’ finances/estate.
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Sounds like a contradictiction in terms. Also, I think that attitude would make women flee
 
I think it would be a good idea for you to talk to older married couples that you respect about how they handle money.

Also, I would recommend you (and any future fiancee) going through Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University or something similar (it’s a 9 week once-a-week course).

DR has a lot of good advice on marriage and money.

Bear in mind that if you are going to be a doctor that a) you’re not really going to have a lot of free time for handling your money yourself and b) doctors are famous for making poor decisions with regard to money and investments due to overconfidence.

investopedia.com/articles/investing/071315/why-doctors-cant-manage-money.asp

medscape.com/viewarticle/847653_1

Hence, it would behoove you to have a wife with good managerial skills who can do stuff for you when you are busy and help you make good decisions about your money.

The desire to make decisions alone is (from my point of view as a long-married lady) not very defensible. If you have good ideas, it will be easy to demonstrate that to a sensible wife. If you have bad ideas, a sensible wife will try to discourage you from following that course. So, in either case, try to make decisions TOGETHER, since both of you and your children will all suffer if you make mistakes.

Also, I have to ask, if you are going to manage everything alone, what happens when you die? You could really leave your wife in very poor shape, if she has no familiarity with your financial decision-making process, no matter how brilliant it is, or how much money you leave.
 
I think there may be some cultural differences here. The op should just consult with his priest.
 
Anglewannabe said:
Sounds like a contradictiction in terms. Also, I think that attitude would make women flee
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Yeah. And that’s another downside of the OP’s views, that they will chase away sensible women.

Our family is (fingers crossed) in the process of raising sensible kids who will be able to avoid college debt, make a good living and who will probably eventually inherit something just from us (to say nothing of their grandparents). If one of my daughters brought a young man home who talked like the OP, I would be scared to death for her.

Plus, are we even talking about that much money? Hypothetically, I could eventually inherit family property worth in the high 6-digits/very low 7 digits (although I am not making plans based on that eventuality). A lot of prosperous established families have that kind of money sloshing around after several generations. It’s not that big a deal or unusual–and if it does bother you, just marry a woman who also has family money.

Plus, financial misbehavior within marriage is (if anything) more expensive than divorce. So, if you’re going to worry, worry about that.
 
Medical_Student said:
Good Morning,

I originally for the past year have had the full intention to sign a pre-nuptial agreement due to familial wealth and land inheritance and my current career. Recently, I learned this may be a problem. Are there any Church teachings on this? To be quite honest, I am not sure I still would not have a future wife sign this line. I will not have someone who can do a 180 squander away my family (only son/child) and late father’s endowment and name. To me, it is far more a legal issue than anything else. The Western World is far different today than 100 years ago and things are very legalistic with women having an upper hand in many terms of marriage, such as child custody post-divorce. I am hardly “traditional” as commonly thought of on Catholic forums but very traditional in terms of who controls the wealth in a relationship as well as familial reputation or name. I have no intentions of ever having a divorce, but in case of her ever having that inclination (you never know), it appears to be something I will not budge on.

I am seeking authoritative teachings on this matter.
I am in the U.S. and live in NYC if anyone has any personal referrals RE: above.

Regards,

AT
Click to expand...
You must talk to someone who has the authority to explain it. God Bless, Memaw
 
Apparently it depends on the terms of the prenuptial agreement.

Though from your post I’m not entirely sure you should marry.
If you’re so afraid that you’ll be taken to the cleaners by your spouse then it might be better not to.
 
Medical_Student said:
I originally for the past year have had the full intention to sign a pre-nuptial agreement due to familial wealth and land inheritance and my current career. Recently, I learned this may be a problem. Are there any Church teachings on this? To be quite honest, I am not sure I still would not have a future wife sign this line. I will not have someone who can do a 180 squander away my family (only son/child) and late father’s endowment and name. To me, it is far more a legal issue than anything else.
Click to expand...
I agree that this is strictly a legal issue and that you ignore it at your own peril. No matter how well-intentioned a couple is when they get married, any marriage can run off the rails. And when it does, all the idealistic, feel-good, “understanding of marriage” stuff goes right out the window - along with your assets. If you have a substantial inheritance, a business, or children from a previous marriage, it would be insane not to take steps to protect your interests. Now, that is not to say that you should draft a prenup with the intention of leaving your spouse destitute. But neither should you leave yourself vulnerable to a possibly vengeful ex-spouse.

I am a partner in a professional services firm. Our partnership agreement contains a clause that requires any partner getting married to have a prenup protecting the business. A few years ago one of the partners was planning to get married, and his fiancee was dead-set against signing a prenup. Nothing would change her mind, so the partner announced one day that there would be no prenup. Things got ugly and we had to sue him. We ended up buying him out, his legal fees ate up a bunch of his equity in the firm, and not too long after his wife left him.

My advice to you: Have a loving but frank discussion with your intended. Fully disclose your financial situation. Explain why you need this protection. Have her consult her own attorney to review the prenup. If you are told that this does not comport with your intended’s “understanding of marriage,” wish her good luck and a happy life, and move on. And be thankful that you dodged a bullet.
 
WilliamE said:
I agree that this is strictly a legal issue and that you ignore it at your own peril. No matter how well-intentioned a couple is when they get married, any marriage can run off the rails. And when it does, all the idealistic, feel-good, “understanding of marriage” stuff goes right out the window - along with your assets. If you have a substantial inheritance, a business, or children from a previous marriage, it would be insane not to take steps to protect your interests. Now, that is not to say that you should draft a prenup with the intention of leaving your spouse destitute. But neither should you leave yourself vulnerable to a possibly vengeful ex-spouse.

I am a partner in a professional services firm. Our partnership agreement contains a clause that requires any partner getting married to have a prenup protecting the business. A few years ago one of the partners was planning to get married, and his fiancee was dead-set against signing a prenup. Nothing would change her mind, so the partner announced one day that there would be no prenup. Things got ugly and we had to sue him. We ended up buying him out, his legal fees ate up a bunch of his equity in the firm, and not too long after his wife left him.

My advice to you: Have a loving but frank discussion with your intended. Fully disclose your financial situation. Explain why you need this protection. Have her consult her own attorney to review the prenup. If you are told that this does not comport with your intended’s “understanding of marriage,” wish her good luck and a happy life, and move on. And be thankful that you dodged a bullet.
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I’m sure your’re going to accuse me of being naive, but that’s a very cynical view.
 
WilliamE said:
I agree that this is strictly a legal issue and that you ignore it at your own peril. No matter how well-intentioned a couple is when they get married, any marriage can run off the rails. And when it does, all the idealistic, feel-good, “understanding of marriage” stuff goes right out the window - along with your assets. If you have a substantial inheritance, a business, or children from a previous marriage, it would be insane not to take steps to protect your interests. Now, that is not to say that you should draft a prenup with the intention of leaving your spouse destitute. But neither should you leave yourself vulnerable to a possibly vengeful ex-spouse.

I am a partner in a professional services firm. Our partnership agreement contains a clause that requires any partner getting married to have a prenup protecting the business. A few years ago one of the partners was planning to get married, and his fiancee was dead-set against signing a prenup. Nothing would change her mind, so the partner announced one day that there would be no prenup. Things got ugly and we had to sue him. We ended up buying him out, his legal fees ate up a bunch of his equity in the firm, and not too long after his wife left him.

My advice to you: Have a loving but frank discussion with your intended. Fully disclose your financial situation. Explain why you need this protection. Have her consult her own attorney to review the prenup. If you are told that this does not comport with your intended’s “understanding of marriage,” wish her good luck and a happy life, and move on. And be thankful that you dodged a bullet.
Click to expand...
I’m personally opposed to partnerships of that nature, and your story demonstrates why they are dicey.

It beats me why a person would be willing to enter into a business partnership with multiple parties involved.
 
carefullytread said:
Check out: canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/18/a-catholic-look-at-pre-nuptial-agreements/

The Catholic view of pre-nups is more nuanced than “They are not permissible.”
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I read the article and I am posting the most relevant passage to the discussion, Hope I am not violating any copyrights, I acknowledge the authorship in the link provided.
One can, of course, easily imagine terms in pre-nuptial agreements that violate Church teaching on marriage. For all I know, these represent the great majority of pre-nups now in force. Such documents cannot in good conscience be signed. But one can also, I suggest, imagine terms in a pre-nup that are wholly consistent with, nay even supportive of, Church teaching on marriage. Indeed, one could construct a pre-nup that is deliberately counter-cultural and, even if parts of it came into play only in the face of divorce (which an unwilling party cannot prevent anyway), would discourage civil divorce undertaken in disregard of Christ’s teaching on marriage.
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There you have it, is it possible to safeguard inheritance in the face of divorce, taking into account that for the Church there is NO divorce allowed.

I would say, talk to a canon lawyer about it.

If you get a pre-nuptial from a regular lawyer you have already voided your marriage. as the author above suggests.
 
As a woman, I would sign nor ask future spouse to sign. So here’s an interesting story. When I married my DH, I had more money than he did. I had gotten better summer internships in college and better bonuses where we worked (same department, different building). So, by the time we got married, I had a lot more money than he did. Before becoming engaged, he told me that he planned to go to grad school to switch careers. He asked if I thought it would be a problem. I said, No, never, but let’s find a location where I could get a job to make grad school life easier. His parents had money, but they said he was on his own after college.

We found a location where I could transfer with our current company (he quit), and I worked while he studied. I was warned many times that he was using me and probably dump me. Now, 24 years later, I am fortunate to be a SAHM because my DH is now an executive in his company. Neither of us “control” our money.

Personally, if a guy asked me to sign a prenup, I would run as fast as I could in the opposite direction. I want a marriage, not a contract. And I do know of other women who put their husbands through professional school and then were dumped. It goes both ways.
 
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