"Full Knowledge" and Mortal Sin

[LuxDei]

Hello all,

I was wondering…what exactly does “Full Knowledge” MEAN? It seems simple but I don’t think it is, at least not in my case! (I struggle with scrupulosity…I’m working on it though, and I AM making progress.)

For instance, does someone commit mortal sin if they know something is wrong, and maybe even significantly so, and they wonder if maybe it might be a mortal sin, but they don’t think with any certainty that it’s a “grave” sin and they have not ever seen it on a list of “possible mortal sins” or been told that it is one?

I’m just starting out on my journey as a Catholic, and I often make choices where beforehand I think to myself “Well, this isn’t good…I’d even call this immoral/unethical. I know it’s a sin, but I don’t think it’s a mortal sin…” and then I do it. And later I’ll feel horrible and panicky wondering if I committed a mortal sin and wanting to go to confession even if I already did once that week.

I know I just shouldn’t do things that I know are wrong in the first place, and I’m working on that, but since I sometimes do and later find myself in this awful situation, I would really appreciate anyone’s advice on whether the situation I mentioned would meet the qualification of “full knowledge” as far as mortal sin is concerned.

Thanks in advance.

 

[JFonseka]

The sin in itself must be grave, not every type of sin is a mortal sin even if it’s done with full knowledge.

Sexual impurity
Murder
Rape etc, those fall under mortal sins.

 

[LuxDei]

The sin in itself must be grave, not every type of sin is a mortal sin even if it’s done with full knowledge.

Yes, I am aware of that…my question was pertaining to when it turns out that it WAS grave, but you weren’t “fully certain” that it was when you committed it. Like, you had considered the idea that it might be but you either stopped thinking about that possibility and just acted or you eventually decided that it probably wasn’t and then acted, only to find out later that it was.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear in that first rambling post! Thanks again.

 

[JFonseka]

Yes, I am aware of that…my question was pertaining to when it turns out that it WAS grave, but you weren’t “fully certain” that it was when you committed it. Like, you had considered the idea that it might be but you either stopped thinking about that possibility and just acted or you eventually decided that it probably wasn’t and then acted, only to find out later that it was.

Sorry if I wasn’t clear in that first rambling post! Thanks again.

Well it can’t be a grave sin if you didn’t fully realize at the time. However if you do later realize it was a grave sin, then you must confess it.

 

[Luke_S]

I was wondering…what exactly does “Full Knowledge” MEAN? It seems simple but I don’t think it is, at least not in my case! (I struggle with scrupulosity…I’m working on it though, and I AM making progress.)

Wow, that is a tough question, I’m not sure if I’m wise enough to know. Tell me, what does it mean to you when you read it in the Catechism, let me know your impressions, then maybe I could comment further:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

I’m just starting out on my journey as a Catholic, and I often make choices where beforehand I think to myself “Well, this isn’t good…I’d even call this immoral/unethical. I know it’s a sin, but I don’t think it’s a mortal sin…” and then I do it. And later I’ll feel horrible and panicky wondering if I committed a mortal sin and wanting to go to confession even if I already did once that week.

Do you ever consider that God’s grace is sufficient to cover your sins? I like to hang my hat on that whenever I worry about things like this. I think the fact that the effects of sin matters to you demonstrates that you want a relationship with God and fear being without Him for eternity (hell). Doesn’t it make sense that our God, who is love, will take you just as you are, no matter what you do? Jesus died for sinners, not for those who are good enough on their own accord. This is fundemental to our Catholic faith, don’t you forget it.

I know I just shouldn’t do things that I know are wrong in the first place, and I’m working on that, but since I sometimes do and later find myself in this awful situation, I would really appreciate anyone’s advice on whether the situation I mentioned would meet the qualification of “full knowledge” as far as mortal sin is concerned.

Well you not only have to have full knowledge of sin for a sin to be mortal it also has to be grave (very serious) and you have to have deliberate consent. Do you think it could possibly meet these other two criteria? Is the sin in question one that you have struggled with all your life? For me, addictions have been a problem most of my life, except maybe when I was very young. I think one could argue, with what we know about addictive and compulsive behaviour, that deliberate consent could be challenged on these grounds. They would still be sins, mind you, if they were associated with addiction, but mortal sins? I don’t know… That is something I struggle with. Again, Christ died for our sins, the debt is paid. The sacrament of confession is a gift of his divine grace, use it! If you go to confession once a week, what are you worried about? Do you think that Jesus, the one who died for you, would not let you be with Him for all of eternity because you died before you could make it to your weekly confession?

“Cast all your anxieties on him, for he cares about you.” 1 Peter 5:7

 

[thistle]

Hello all,

I was wondering…what exactly does “Full Knowledge” MEAN? It seems simple but I don’t think it is, at least not in my case! (I struggle with scrupulosity…I’m working on it though, and I AM making progress.)

For instance, does someone commit mortal sin if they know something is wrong, and maybe even significantly so, and they wonder if maybe it might be a mortal sin, but they don’t think with any certainty that it’s a “grave” sin and they have not ever seen it on a list of “possible mortal sins” or been told that it is one?

I’m just starting out on my journey as a Catholic, and I often make choices where beforehand I think to myself “Well, this isn’t good…I’d even call this immoral/unethical. I know it’s a sin, but I don’t think it’s a mortal sin…” and then I do it. And later I’ll feel horrible and panicky wondering if I committed a mortal sin and wanting to go to confession even if I already did once that week.

I know I just shouldn’t do things that I know are wrong in the first place, and I’m working on that, but since I sometimes do and later find myself in this awful situation, I would really appreciate anyone’s advice on whether the situation I mentioned would meet the qualification of “full knowledge” as far as mortal sin is concerned.

Thanks in advance.

Its very simple. If you know the Church teaches something is a grave sin then that suffices as full knowledge and if you then do it you have committed a mortal sin.

If you commit a grave sin but truly did not know it was grave then it is still a grave sin but not a mortal sin.
However, in my opinion these days most people have a pretty good idea if they are committing a grave sin.

 

[Safe_Eagle]

First of all I would like to say I know what you’re going through. Scupulosity is a terrible thing. No doubt fostered by the evil on us to exasperate us. It’s the kind of thing that can completely wear you out. Loose sleep and even give up completely on the Christian walk.

One of the things that really helped me through guidance from the confessional is to concentrate on the love and mercy of God. Realize His love for you at all times. Bad/evil thoughts that come are way are like flies landing on our face. We just need to swat them away. They may continue to keep coming. Just keep swating. Don’t make the Christian life complicated. It’s a simple life. A simple life of love. If there is any doubt in behavior it’s always venial. Offer all to God. Trust in Him. Rest in His peace.

Keep at it and don’t give up.

God bless

 

[LuxDei]

Thank you all for your responses so far; you’ve all been so wonderful…I love this forum, and all of you! Safe Eagle, your words are beautiful. Sometimes I feel like they’re too good to be true, but I’m trying to convince myself that God really is that good!

So I found this online: mission.liguori.org/newsletters/pdf_archive/november2005sa_web.pdf
If you look at page 2, it talks about “full knowledge” and says that

“This knowledge about the sinfulness of an act or omission must be clear and unambiguous at the time of the sin…This knowledge is not something you wonder about after the fact…Thinking that you might have known is not sufficient. Mortal sin is always a clear and certain choice. Your knowledge that the matter is grave matter is also clear and certain. If you have any doubts that you knew about the seriousness of the matter, then you must judge that you did not know it was a serious matter.”

Now, does anyone have any scruples (no pun intended, ) about me applying that to my situation?

Believe me, I have plenty. Primarily, I often doubt that I can apply the Scrupulous Anonymous advice to myself, since it is often supposed to only apply to those who have a scrupulous conscience, and I sometimes doubt that I do. Even though I feel this way (fear/panic) and DO often struggle with scruples about little things that I later find out aren’t sins at all or are definitely venial, I do commit a lot of sins willfully, which is not something I think someone with scruples would allow themselves to do! Then again, I found this homily online cny.org/archive/ch/ch031199.htm and one thing the priest says is this:

Here is a very interesting observation that is played out so often. Sometimes people with scrupulosity get so fed up they sin or act out in extreme ways.

I don’t think I would ever willfully commit something that I was sure was a mortal sin at this point in my life, though (for example, I generally avoid your typical ones like the plague because I know for a fact that they’re grave).

So, first of all, I’m not sure if his advice there is one of the things on the SA website that are ONLY supposed to apply to scrupulous persons or if that’s the general rule for everyone, and I’m also not certain that I myself should be allowed to use that advice if it is indeed only for the scrupulous. But I’m learning not to trust my own conscience on these things. So once again, your (name removed by moderator)ut would be appreciated.

God bless.

 

[LuxDei]

One last clarification. Since I know the other posts have been so long, I’ll simplify things into one question here which gets to the heart of the matter:

Can I safely assume that I have not committed a mortal sin if I KNOW with complete certainty that I would NOT have done it if I had seen it on a list of grave sins somewhere or been given some other clear indication that it was grave?

The answer to that question is key for me…I often WONDER before I do something, but if I don’t know with certainty, then act, and later repent, can I rest assured that it was venial since I had no certainty that it was grave?

Thanks SO much.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

I often make choices where beforehand I think to myself "Well, this isn’t good…I’d even call this immoral/unethical. I know it’s a sin, but I don’t think it’s a mortal sin…" and then I do it. And later I’ll feel horrible and panicky wondering if I committed a mortal sin and wanting to go to confession even if I already did once that week.

Friend, if you have time to consider beforehand that something is a sin, regardless of its gravity, why do you consciously go ahead and do it anyway? I don’t mean that unkindly - I tended towards scrupolosity myself in the past, I know the torture one can go through and I can sympathize with where you’re at. My solution, if it helps, was simple: if I felt a proposed action was sinful in any way I got myself out of there pronto

 

[Luke_S]

Can I safely assume that I have not committed a mortal sin if I KNOW with complete certainty that I would NOT have done it if I had seen it on a list of grave sins somewhere or been given some other clear indication that it was grave?

Yes, you can safely assume you did not commit a mortal sin. If it was grave, you did not know it was grave, that means you didn’t have full knowledge. That’s my opinion.

 

[LuxDei]

Friend, if you have time to consider beforehand that something is a sin, regardless of its gravity, why do you consciously go ahead and do it anyway? I don’t mean that unkindly - I tended towards scrupolosity myself in the past, I know the torture one can go through and I can sympathize with where you’re at. My solution, if it helps, was simple: if I felt a proposed action was sinful in any way I got myself out of there pronto

I totally agree with you, and I think I stated in my first post (or maybe it was my second one) on this thread that I KNOW it’s downright STUPID to do things like that, because then I get myself in these situations. But then I said that sometimes I just make a stupid choice like that and find myself here, and I was looking for some guidance for those times.

Luke, thanks so much…that’s what I thought. I mean it would seem that in those cases where you’ve seen it somewhere or heard that it was somewhere for sure, if you make sure to avoid those things like the plague, as I stated I do above, then it’s obvious what your response to “FULL knowledge” is. I was thinking that in the situations where you wonder, or think “maybe it is,” that would by definition be PARTIAL knowledge. And partial is not the same as full. So since the second req for mortal sin is FULL knowledge, rather than just “knowledge” or “partial knowledge,” I guess I kind of knew my answer but just really needed some reassurance.

Thanks again to everyone, and God bless.

 

[Pug]

For instance, does someone commit mortal sin if they know something is wrong, and maybe even significantly so, and they wonder if maybe it might be a mortal sin, but they don’t think with any certainty that it’s a “grave” sin and they have not ever seen it on a list of “possible mortal sins” or been told that it is one?

If your confessor has put you under obedience concerning scrupulosity, please ignore my post.

I would like to add a thought. Catholics have a serious responsibility to clear up things if they are unsure. If you suspect it might be a mortal sin, then you ought to try to clear up your doubt by taking reasonable steps to get information. This could step into the territory of mortal sin, providing the other conditions are met. For example, say you truly think it might be a grave sin to take a consecrated host home in your pocket to use in some magic ritual you read about in a book. Since you have no need to take this action before investigating if this action is grave, in my opinion if you just brush off the your knowledge that you seriously need to check this out, you could be in for mortal sin if you meet all the other conditions. I realize, though, that some actions have emotions pressuring you to do them NOW. With enough emotional pressure, consent is mitigated.

Just think of how a person could deal with certain situations. They could deliberately postpone finding out if it is grave just so that they can keep on doing it by telling themselves that they don’t know it is grave, so it can’t be a mortal sin, so they can do it. Even if somehow they aren’t in for being willing to do something that likely is grave, they are in for gross negligence to form their conscience.

I’m not talking about a brief doubt that crosses one’s mind. Some people suspect almost any sin of being grave. They even suspect non-sins of being grave. I’m not talking about these people.

This is my opinion, based upon my reading of moral theology books. The CCC is frustratingly not specific about what “full” knowledge is.

 

[LuxDei]

My pastor did tell me that it sounds like I have scrupulosity several months ago, and told me that I should only go to confession once a week, and that if I die before that once a week thing and I really DO have a mortal in on my soul, somehow since I’m under obediance of him I don’t need to worry about going to hell for it as long as I really intended to confess it at my weekly confession? So yeah.

But I DID confess the things in question when I went this morning for my weekly confession. And he seemed to think they weren’t even grave, let alone mortal. Sigh…WHEN WILL I LEARN TO JUST NOT DO STUPID THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

*…Even today, after all that hassle, when I came home I got mad about something and used a swear word when talking about my stepdad (mainly my mom said he might be mad that she bought me my new laptop when he hasn’t gotten the flatscreen TV he wants yet, and I was angry and blurted out “well maybe you should explain to him that this is for SCHOOL too, not just for sitting on my *** all day” which was an awful thing to say because he works so hard and does deserve a new TV and bleh). Then I was like OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

But even though I know that was disrespect to my parents which IS grave, since it happened as a “slip” without full consent of my will, I’m trying to convince myself that it wasn’t mortal…]
*
Thanks to everyone for your help! I love you all!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well it can’t be a grave sin if you didn’t fully realize at the time. However if you do later realize it was a grave sin, then you must confess it.

Just curious, where do you get this idea from?

 

[h03m]

My point of view:

at school I was taught that masturbation was normal, safe, and healthy, and nothing to worry about. I used to masturbate a lot, happy in the knowledge that I was not doing anything wrong, in-fact I was taught it’s helpful to keep my system working properly, and not masturbating could increase the risk of prostate cancer. Later I’ve returned to the Catholic faith, and now know it’s a mortal sin. However, I don’t believe that I sinned at the time, because I thought that it was OK - actually, I thought it was more than OK, I thought it was positive and health-improving.

Did I sin?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My point of view:

at school I was taught that masturbation was normal, safe, and healthy, and nothing to worry about. I used to masturbate a lot, happy in the knowledge that I was not doing anything wrong, in-fact I was taught it’s helpful to keep my system working properly, and not masturbating could increase the risk of prostate cancer. Later I’ve returned to the Catholic faith, and now know it’s a mortal sin. However, I don’t believe that I sinned at the time, because I thought that it was OK - actually, I thought it was more than OK, I thought it was positive and health-improving.

Did I sin?

Lack of one of the three conditions for a mortal sin does not mean that one does not sin, just that it is not a mortal sin.

It is a venial sin if one of those conditions is not met.

 

[h03m]

Br. David, O.Carm., thanks for your clarification. M.

 

[Pug]

Sigh…WHEN WILL I LEARN TO JUST NOT DO STUPID THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

If only we could all figure this out!

blurted out “well maybe you should explain to him that this is for SCHOOL too, not just for sitting on my *** all day” which was an awful thing to say because he works so hard and does deserve a new TV and bleh). Then I was like OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I so understand the OH NOOOOOOOO!!! kind of feeling.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Let’s not forget that once we reach the age of reason, we have a duty to know, understand and believe the teachings of our church. Ignorance is not an excuse. The bible teaches this …

• If any one sin, and do any of the things which Jehovah hath commanded not to be done, though he knew it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

-- Leviticus 5:17​

… The CCC teaches this …

• 1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. **This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, **the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
… and past Popes have taught it …
*

• whoever neglects to have or do what he ought to have or do, commits a sin of omission. Wherefore through negligence, ignorance of what one is bound to know, is a sin; whereas it is not imputed as a sin to man, if he fails to know what he is unable to know. Consequently ignorance of such like things is called “invincible,” because it cannot be overcome by study. For this reason such like ignorance, not being voluntary, since it is not in our power to be rid of it, is not a sin: wherefore it is evident that no invincible ignorance is a sin. On the other hand, vincible ignorance is a sin, if it be about matters one is bound to know; but not, if it be about things one is not bound to know. (ST, IIa, 76, 2)
• Affected ignorance does not excuse from guilt, but seems, rather, to aggravate it: for it shows that a man is so strongly attached to sin that he wishes to incur ignorance lest he avoid sinning. (ST, III, 47, 5)