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fix
Guest
I found this interesting:
- Status
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Oh dear, I thought I had responded to this post, SK…apprently I did not click onto “Submit Reply”
…so I will try again.I cannot agree more that one is responsible and indeed accountable as a Catholic to educate one’s conscience in moral good and evil. To not do so makes the person culpable and responsible and accountable for any evil committed. The other matter that will affect the conscience in a morally adverse and culpable manner is to not care about committing sins even venial.
If I am careless and dont care about committing venial sins and then commit a mortal sin because I did not realize it was mortal - I am on shaky moral ground. From this I think it can be seen that it can be most difficult to objectively know with assuredness the true level of moral guilt. In the final analysis only God can judge and may He judge I plead with Mercy - and this should not degenerate into presumption. Morality, as I said before somewhere, can be murky and muddy waters indeed - most clouded.
We are called to avoid sin and resist temptation…even venial sins.
God’s Blessings and His Peace…Barb
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LuxDei
Guest
I just wanted to say thank you again to everyone for your responses here…don’t worry about it going over my head. Sometimes this forum does a LITTLE, but I did a lot of studying before I even entered RCIA, so I think I can follow most of it. And if I can’t, then I want to learn anyways.
As far as my original post is concerned, I asked a priest (who is a pastor of a HUGE and very old parish in Chicago) who I’ve never met before about this (I wanted a new opinion and I happened to be downtown). I’ll try to replicate what he said. Warning, this post gets into other issues besides mortal sin because of the way that conversation went.
What I remember for sure (even though I was still crying from fear at that point) was this (I paraphrase, of course): “God’s mercy is so vast, and as human beings, we cannot begin to comprehend it. So we tend to worry and try to put all these artificial constraints on it. But to really commit a mortal sin, you’ve got to have some act in question that’s extremely offensive to God, that you KNOW to be that offensive to God, and then you have to make a conscious decision that you don’t care that this is a mortal sin which will cut off your communion with God, that you’d rather commit this sin than be near to God. There’s no way to do that without really understanding what you’re about to do, reflecting upon it, and still choosing it without your will being impeded by addiction or severe emotion or anything like that.”
I understood that if I followed that assertion to its logical conclusion, he was saying that it’s a difficult thing to go to Hell. And being ME, I of course blurted out “But what about all the places where Jesus talks about the narrow gate and things like that?” The priest said he believes Jesus was definitely speaking in hyperbolic exhortations in those passages and that they are not meant to be interpreted literally but rather according to their call to repentance, kind of like a parable would be interpreted not literally but for its deeper message.
Then I asked about Purgatory, because with all this mercy talk I was starting to have some hope that I wasn’t going to spend my whole life trying to do better for God only to be told that it wasn’t quite good enough and then cast into a lake of fire for a few thousand years
. His responses were similarly optimistic. Even when I brought up the saints who had had visions of Purgatory or been visited by the Holy Souls, he kept coming back to the idea that as humans, we can’t begin to comprehend the way things really work, so God has to communicate to us during those types of mystical experiences in a way that we’ll understand Him, which shouldn’t necessarily be interpreted literally either. I asked him about this one thing I heard, which I loved, and sincerely hope hope hope is true (for many reasons other than just fear). I asked “So do you think it’s possible that purgation might occur in that instant when we come face to face with all God’s love and mercy and finally realize all the ways we fell short and hurt him, and our hearts just cry out in pain and repentance?” And he said that he thinks that’s entirely possible. Sigh…I hope that’s true. It would be so wonderful if God purges us by LOVE rather than in the horrific ways one usually hears purgation explained…Not my place, though. I’m sure however He does things, it’s the best, most loving possible way.
I don’t know, I know a lot of you are going to disagree with this priest, and you’re entitled to that. But that’s really what he said, and I don’t know why they would make a priest with views that were contrary to what the Church taught the pastor of such an important parish in one of the country’s largest dioceses…so I guess I’m going to try to trust him. I WANT him to be right. I guess I’m just afraid that if I trust him (and others I’ve heard who believe like he does), that they’ll be wrong and I’ll be in big trouble someday…Eek! But even just typing that last sentence, that just feels so wrong. I believe God wants us to have a healthy reverence for Him and repugnance for sin, but I don’t think he would want us worrying and needing to say things like “Eek!” to refer to Him! Sigh. I have a long way to go, but I feel like this priest helped me a lot.
Well, there’s my update on that. Thanks again to all of you for this interesting discussion. I look forward (with some anxiety about the reactions you’ll have, particularly certain valiant knights who, in a true knightly fashion, seem to enjoy vanquishing whatever peace I can salvage on a given day!
) to your responses.
As far as my original post is concerned, I asked a priest (who is a pastor of a HUGE and very old parish in Chicago) who I’ve never met before about this (I wanted a new opinion and I happened to be downtown). I’ll try to replicate what he said. Warning, this post gets into other issues besides mortal sin because of the way that conversation went.
What I remember for sure (even though I was still crying from fear at that point) was this (I paraphrase, of course): “God’s mercy is so vast, and as human beings, we cannot begin to comprehend it. So we tend to worry and try to put all these artificial constraints on it. But to really commit a mortal sin, you’ve got to have some act in question that’s extremely offensive to God, that you KNOW to be that offensive to God, and then you have to make a conscious decision that you don’t care that this is a mortal sin which will cut off your communion with God, that you’d rather commit this sin than be near to God. There’s no way to do that without really understanding what you’re about to do, reflecting upon it, and still choosing it without your will being impeded by addiction or severe emotion or anything like that.”
I understood that if I followed that assertion to its logical conclusion, he was saying that it’s a difficult thing to go to Hell. And being ME, I of course blurted out “But what about all the places where Jesus talks about the narrow gate and things like that?” The priest said he believes Jesus was definitely speaking in hyperbolic exhortations in those passages and that they are not meant to be interpreted literally but rather according to their call to repentance, kind of like a parable would be interpreted not literally but for its deeper message.
Then I asked about Purgatory, because with all this mercy talk I was starting to have some hope that I wasn’t going to spend my whole life trying to do better for God only to be told that it wasn’t quite good enough and then cast into a lake of fire for a few thousand years
. His responses were similarly optimistic. Even when I brought up the saints who had had visions of Purgatory or been visited by the Holy Souls, he kept coming back to the idea that as humans, we can’t begin to comprehend the way things really work, so God has to communicate to us during those types of mystical experiences in a way that we’ll understand Him, which shouldn’t necessarily be interpreted literally either. I asked him about this one thing I heard, which I loved, and sincerely hope hope hope is true (for many reasons other than just fear). I asked “So do you think it’s possible that purgation might occur in that instant when we come face to face with all God’s love and mercy and finally realize all the ways we fell short and hurt him, and our hearts just cry out in pain and repentance?” And he said that he thinks that’s entirely possible. Sigh…I hope that’s true. It would be so wonderful if God purges us by LOVE rather than in the horrific ways one usually hears purgation explained…Not my place, though. I’m sure however He does things, it’s the best, most loving possible way.I don’t know, I know a lot of you are going to disagree with this priest, and you’re entitled to that. But that’s really what he said, and I don’t know why they would make a priest with views that were contrary to what the Church taught the pastor of such an important parish in one of the country’s largest dioceses…so I guess I’m going to try to trust him. I WANT him to be right. I guess I’m just afraid that if I trust him (and others I’ve heard who believe like he does), that they’ll be wrong and I’ll be in big trouble someday…Eek! But even just typing that last sentence, that just feels so wrong. I believe God wants us to have a healthy reverence for Him and repugnance for sin, but I don’t think he would want us worrying and needing to say things like “Eek!” to refer to Him! Sigh. I have a long way to go, but I feel like this priest helped me a lot.
Well, there’s my update on that. Thanks again to all of you for this interesting discussion. I look forward (with some anxiety about the reactions you’ll have, particularly certain valiant knights who, in a true knightly fashion, seem to enjoy vanquishing whatever peace I can salvage on a given day!
) to your responses.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Exactly the point. Better to error on the side of caution and assume that something is a sin and confess it and be sorry for it then to let it slide and have it upon our soul. God is ready to forgive each and every sin that we bring to Him no matter how minor or how great. Remember, He didn’t die on the cross to condemn us but to save us because He loves us.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
With all due respect to the good pastor of a large parish, according to our church fathers …But to really commit a mortal sin, you’ve got to have some act in question that’s extremely offensive to God, that you KNOW to be that offensive to God, and then you have to make a conscious decision that you don’t care that this is a mortal sin which will cut off your communion with God, that you’d rather commit this sin than be near to God. There’s no way to do that without really understanding what you’re about to do, reflecting upon it, and still choosing it without your will being impeded by addiction or severe emotion or anything like that."
I understood that if I followed that assertion to its logical conclusion, he was saying that it’s a difficult thing to go to Hell. And being ME, I of course blurted out “But what about all the places where Jesus talks about the narrow gate and things like that?” The priest said he believes Jesus was definitely speaking in hyperbolic exhortations in those passages and that they are not meant to be interpreted literally but rather according to their call to repentance, kind of like a parable would be interpreted not literally but for its deeper message.
Then I asked about Purgatory, because with all this mercy talk I was starting to have some hope that I wasn’t going to spend my whole life trying to do better for God only to be told that it wasn’t quite good enough and then cast into a lake of fire for a few thousand years
I don’t know, I know a lot of you are going to disagree with this priest, and you’re entitled to that. But that’s really what he said, and I don’t know why they would make a priest with views that were contrary to what the Church taught the pastor of such an important parish in one of the country’s largest dioceses…so I guess I’m going to try to trust him. I WANT him to be right. I guess I’m just afraid that if I trust him (and others I’ve heard who believe like he does), that they’ll be wrong and I’ll be in big trouble someday…Eek!
- "The most common sentiment which is held is that, among Christians, there are more damned souls than predestined souls."
- "Many attain to faith, but few to the heavenly kingdom."
- “There are few who are saved.”
- “Few are saved in comparison to those who are damned.”
- "Out of 100,000 people whose lives have always been bad, you will find barely ONE who is worthy of indulgence."
- "the number of priests who fall into hell each day is so great that it seemed impossible that there be any left on earth"
- "Many priests are not saved; on the contrary, the number of those who are damned is greater."
- "Out of thirty-three thousand people who died. Two went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell."
- “If you consider the sacrament of penance, there are so many distorted confessions, so many studied excuses, so many deceitful repentances, so many false promises, so many ineffective resolutions, so many invalid absolutions!”
- "Most Catholic adults confess badly at death, therefore most of them are damned."
… [Source (The Few Number Who Are Saved)
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Howdy LDI just wanted to say thank you again to everyone for your responses here…don’t worry about it going over my head. Sometimes this forum does a LITTLE, but I did a lot of studying before I even entered RCIA, so I think I can follow most of it. And if I can’t, then I want to learn anyways.
As far as my original post is concerned, I asked a priest (who is a pastor of a HUGE and very old parish in Chicago) who I’ve never met before about this (I wanted a new opinion and I happened to be downtown). I’ll try to replicate what he said. Warning, this post gets into other issues besides mortal sin because of the way that conversation went.
What I remember for sure (even though I was still crying from fear at that point) was this (I paraphrase, of course): "God’s mercy is so vast, and as human beings, we cannot begin to comprehend it. So we tend to worry and try to put all these artificial constraints on it. But to really commit a mortal sin, you’ve got to have some act in question that’s extremely offensive to God, that you KNOW to be
Apologies LD - I have had to edit your post as the computer is cross with me over wordcount - we frequently cross swords on this point. The computer always wins!!!
Well, there’s my update on that. Thanks again to all of you for this interesting discussion. I look forward (with some anxiety about the reactions you’ll have, particularly certain valiant knights who, in a true knightly fashion, seem to enjoy vanquishing whatever peace I can salvage on a given day!
…I agree to the letter with everything your priest has said to you. What a wonderful priest you have and I join with you in giving thanks and praise for him.One of the big problems one can come up against when one is going through a period of trial is to be so consumed by doubt to seek information and hopefully help from almost all and sundry in the hope of aquiring Peace. This is a truly big mistake usually! What, in fact, usually happens is that one winds up even more confused and lacking in Peace than in the first place. Hence listen to what Father had to say to you and take it to heart and let it transcend all other opinions and invest trustfully and confidently in God who has spoken to you through Father - this is what all the great classics recommend. You will be in safe and holy space.
There is a beautiful little line in the Psalms from the Divine Office which gives me a smile every time: “that you be without reproach when you judge, see Lord, a sinner was I conceived”!:coffeeread: - the psalmist is attempting to put God over a barrel - to get Him into a corner, to trap him
- and it is funny!:extrahappy: God has a sense of humour, The Bible is full of it! I like to say that God’s Mercy flows from His Justice and that His Justice is a raging fire and His Mercy the water that quenches that fire. Well God knows our very real weaknesses and our confusions and the temptations and weakness that accompany our sins - “Man judges by appearances but God sees the heart”. St. Teresa of Avila said, with more wry humour, that humility is God’s weak point and will win Him every time. We should celebrate our great Gift of Faith with joy and dancing, rather than with sombre and depressing exchanges on moral theology - my take on matters!Jesus has said “My Peace I give to you” …not will give or shall give - but “give”. We have His Peace already unless I start making moves etc. etc. to destroy it. If in doubt ever, discuss it with Father in Confession and then be in total Peace listening to any advice he may give…and against all comers to the contrary. I wish I was in your parish - God has gifted you a real gem and diamond of a holy priest. Give thanks and praise to God for him and cherish him. Amen.
For every saint that states something damning and depressing I think I could quote three saints that state something comforting and consoling gifting us with trustful confidence in God’s Unfathonomable and Infinite Mercy. St. Faustina said that Jesus said to her “The greatest sinner has most right to my Mercy” and St. Therese of Lisieux said “if I had committed every sin possible, it would not change my trustful confidence in God and His Mercy”. If I really need to quote another one, I will dig up three more instead. For every quote from the Bible about God’s damnation I will give three quotes about His Mercy.
Those who put absolute trust and confidence in God and His Mercy are like little children to God and we know what Jesus said about little children.God’s Blessings and may He establish you in His Peace forever…Barb
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Sir_Knight
Guest
You’re on! Here’s a biblical quote DIRECTLY from Jesus telling us that more will be lost than will be saved:For every saint that states something damning and depressing I think I could quote three saints that state something comforting and consoling gifting us with trustful confidence in God’s Unfathonomable and Infinite Mercy. St. Faustina said that Jesus said to her “The greatest sinner has most right to my Mercy” and St. Therese of Lisieux said “if I had committed every sin possible, it would not change my trustful confidence in God and His Mercy”. If I really need to quote another one, I will dig up three more instead. For every quote from the Bible about God’s damnation I will give three quotes about His Mercy.
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and FEW there are that find it!
-- Matthew 7:13-14
You don’t need to give me THREE – just give me ONE quote from our Lord telling us that more will be saved than will be lost.
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Pug
Guest
Thank you, fix. I hadn’t known that information by Fr. Hardon was available. I was taught to think in terms of vincible and invincible ignorance, and the CCC does use the term “invincible”. I will include a clip below. Although I would prefer to assume that the CCC means what I was taught, I’ve seen people use that very passage about “principles of the moral law” on these boards to mean that you can’t be invincibly ignorant of the natural law. I’m not saying those posters were right or not, just that they made me wonder what in the world the CCC really meant by that passage. When I was taught about invincible ignorance, I hadn’t been taught that there was a whole class of things that you surely must know at any particular instant no matter how erroneously you’ve been taught. Fr. Hardon does not seem to imply this, either, on a brief reading.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
True knightsI look forward (with some anxiety about the reactions you’ll have, particularly certain valiant knights who, in a true knightly fashion, seem to enjoy vanquishing whatever peace I can salvage on a given day!
warn you of the dangers that might awake you so that you are AWARE of them and taken appropriate steps, if necessary; so that you are not taken by surprise by them when it may too late to do anything about it.
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Howday SK:thumbsup: …Having thrown down a gauntlet in your direction more or less, I felt sure you would pick it up and lurch it back at me confidently
…I’m about to go out (phewwww! ) but will return to your Post at some point in the next 24 hours and with a quote!Blessings…Peace…Barb
Edit: Well I’m going to miss my bus but a woman’s conviction she is right won me together with almost insurmountable curiousity. I came up with this:
Matthew 5
- No qualification there, SK and no talk of numbers - rather an implied limitless number at least in potential, only that one be merciful onself. The other quote is “This day you will be with me in Paradise” where the good thief crucified alongside Jesus is given a ticket to Heaven merely by acknowledging Jesus and asking Him for a ticket to Heaven. Note, that the good thief is merciful…he acknowledges his own guilt and also that Jesus has no guilt and should not be crucified, rebuking his crucified companion thief on the other side of Jesus, if memory serves. If the good thief had not been an honest and merciful type of character at least in implication, he never would have said what he did and in an attempt I think to be comforting to Jesus. This raises an interesting point indeed if one ponders “implication” *
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
I dont really wish to bite into the concepts expressed re natural law and vincible/invincible ignorance - it is way too technical and hence complex for me. However if you enter “natural law” and “invincible ignorance” into New Advent you will come up with a month’s reading…well a month’s reading for me to comprehend anyway with no real guarantee that after a month I would be any the wiser. It may be of interest to any wishing to discuss moral law on a complex level however.
God Bless and His Peace…Barb
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
…and true knights protect the innocent too. This raises a very interesting point under discussion in another thread on “balance” and being able to discern with the Grace of The Holy Spirit between two opposite courses of action, each having merit dependant on circumstances and insight into them…stated without any sort of prejudice again you, SK - nor myself nor anyone - just an observation…True knights
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Pug
Guest
LuxDei,
Jesus did not intend to leave us in paranoid fear. I think it is important that you pursue a course that will allow you to live in peace. Finding an adviser that you trust is a good idea. Also, place your trust in God, that he will lead you to the truth and will teach you what you need in due time. Where you are right now is just fine, and God will continue to guide you as you continue to follow.
Of course, I do disagree with the tenor of something in that post. But this wouldn’t be a discussion board otherwise.
I clipped out something above. I don’t think most mortal sins are committed with a conscience reference to our fundamental relationship with God. I think that we more often do the sin with an eye towards some good, and we just aren’t terribly interested in anything else at the time. We must, however, be aware that it is wrong. I don’t think we have to consider in excruciating detail of what that wrongness consists to be culpable. Likely at the time we aren’t terribly interested in that detail anyway when sinning.To illustrate, I think a person could think about adultery beforehand, and what might come to mind is that it is very wrong and that it will wrong our spouse badly. We might not think about God much at that moment, but we knew enough that it was wrong for it to count. We knew it was very bad stuff and would likely be fatal to our marriage. I think this could be enough, even though we didn’t happen to think much about God at the moment. How often are mortal sinners thinking about God at the moment? (rhetorical - I suspect not all that often.)
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Pug
Guest
Ah, how truly you are right. I don’t mean about you, though. I mean about me and if I were to read it all, as you say. I have this tendency to get to thinking about things that take a lot of time to answer, and often I can’t answer with available resources. Then I fall behind on my threads…
You know, just like in the office we can have a little sign that says “out of office, back in five”, I think our profile needs a little sign that says “lost in some encyclical, back in a few weeks”.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Yes, there is no single sin that is too great for God to forgive nor a number of sins that is too many for Him to forgive. What is that quote from St. Faustina’s diary? Even if a person’s sins were as numerous as sands on the beach and as red as crimson blood, my mercy will wash all of them away if they come to my infinite mercy (or something like that – I’m quoting from memory and mostlikely got half of that quote wrong).Howday SK:thumbsup: …Having thrown down a gauntlet in your direction more or less, I felt sure you would pick it up and lurch it back at me confidently
Blessings…Peace…Barb
Edit: Well I’m going to miss my bus but a woman’s conviction she is right won me together with almost insurmountable curiousity. I came up with this:
Matthew 5
- No qualification there, SK
But the point is that despite God’s mercy and readiness to forgive us, MORE will be lost than will be saved. One has to ask themselves why? Is it because we will not approach the Lord seeking His mercy or perhaps is it because we will rely on our ignorance claiming that “we didn’t know” and therefore are not guilty. When in fact we MIGHT be guilty and have failed to seek mercy for that guilt resulting in it not being forgiven because forgiveness was never asked for – we placed our hope & trust in the “ignorance excuse” and not in the infinite mercy of God.
.
.
.
It’s late at night and I may not be thinking clearly and I may withdraw some of what I have said but for the time being, it’s something to think about. The bible tells us that ignorance is no excuse and those who sin, even if they didn’t know it, will still be held accountable. The bible also says that if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven.
But if we do not recognize our sins due to ignorance, we will not confess them and having not confessed them, they will not be forgiven – thus, the words of our Lord that MANY will be lost and FEW will be saved.
As I said, I may recant some or all of what I said when I am more awake but for the time being, this is how I am seeing it.
PS: I wish to add, that I am NOT excluding myself from any of this – I am as guilty as anyone else … maybe even more so.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Good point. Do we protect the innocent by alerting them to a possible danger or do we just let them go off on their merry way? I think the former is a more prudent course of action.
I live out in the country. My backyard runs into the woods. My sister-in-law from another state comes up to visit several times a year and likes to take nature walks in the woods – she finds it peaceful and relaxing.
Last week I saw a pack of coyote running through my backyard and into the woods. At night I sometimes hear a wolf howling. I would say that it is safe to assume that that wolf is still out there somewhere in the day time as well even though he isn’t howling. A few weeks ago, my neighbor spotted a bear.
Do I warn my sister-in-law of the POSSIBLE dangers that MIGHT be lurking in those woods or do I just let her go off on her merry way without a care in the world. Again, I think the former is the more prudent course of action.
The bible indicates that we will be liable for the sins that we commit even if we are unaware of them. The CCC seems to hint at the same thing with regards to ignorance not being an excuse and the recorded words of Jesus in scripture tell us that more will be lost than will be saved.
Isn’t the prudent thing to do; is to hope for the best but prepare for the worst? And shouldn’t we make others aware of that so that they, too, can take a similar course of action in preparing for the worst while hoping for the best?
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crenfro
Guest
Which is why the best sermon is a good example.
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Me??? Lost is some encyclical???
I have a “too hard file” like you would not believe!!! You sure you did not mean “lights on, but no one home”?http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/28/28_1_5.gif…Blessings! Pax!..Barb
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Your ok Sir Knight by me, Sir!!!
It takes courage to express one’s opinion to the contrary of others…and there is nothing higher where opinion and concepts are concerned than to have the courage to change one’s opinion/concepts if necessary. If necessary, is operative!To exchange thinking is a grand matter, even if perchance there is no agreement. It remains a grand grand matter - joyful!!! - but I totally agree with you that to claim God’s Mercy we need to recognize our sinfulness and beg humbly from the heart of a sinner, self, for His Mercy - God indeed sees our hearts! This is open to the worst of sinners - I know it !!! God has showered His Mercy and Graciousness on me and I in turn owe mercy and graciousness to others or I am in real deep trouble.
My personal motto is and its hanging on the wall to the right of me to ever remind me: Timothy 1 - 1-15 -
drbo.org/chapter/61001.htm
Blessings and Peace, SK…Barb
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fix
Guest
I do not think Fr. Hardon’s words are inconsistent with the CCC. They seem to expalin the issue more deeply.
I am thinking of this:
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
- Status