Full knowledge?

[Bookcat]

BC - thanks for that cross reference…I will look into that. At first glace it sounds contradictory to what is written in the section defining mortal sin for there it says that a sin might be “more or less grave”, but it does not say that “less grave” can reach a point of being not grave at all.

Peace
James

The “more or less grave” is referring to gravity within that which is “grave matter” thus the examples then given. They are all grave matter but some are more grave than than others that are grave matters.

As to the Ten Commandments the CCC states: Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments…

Not that everything which falls under the Ten Commandments IS grave matter.

Hence in the introduction to the section on the Ten Commandments it specifically states that not everything is grave matter. But rather that which is light matter “in itself” also falls under such.

The obligation of the Decalogue

2072 Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations* in matter which is, in itself, light*. Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.

---

The Ten Commandments --reveal-- grave obligations --but not all matter that falls under the Ten Commandments IS grave matter.

But* certainly* the Ten Commandments reveal grave obligations (which are thus of grave matter).

 

[JRKH]

As to mortal sin and venial sin

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

The thing that confuses me on this is that the Catechism is no consistent in it’s terms with regards to “matter”.
In describing “Mortal sin” - which kills charity - the Catechism requires that it be “grave matter” - which is specified by (Catechism wording) by the Ten Commandments. They don’t merely, “reveal things of grave matter” (your wording in your earlier post correcting me)…
So far so good…
Then the Catechism says, “The gravity of sins is more or less great…” thus indicating that charity can be “more or less dead”? That the thing that kills charity is more or less severe? - - - In describing something that “Kills Charity” - - I don’t see any room for “more or less grave”.
OK that covers Mortal sin…

In venial sin - matter is not addressed in terms of gravity…but in “seriousness”.

Finally - in the cross reference you gave me…the term “light matter” is used.

Considering the number of questions that people have about what constitutes “Mortal Sin”, it seems that the Catechism itself is not very clear.

Cat - I don’t say this as anything against you or your understandings of these things.
I’m just addressing what I see in the Catechism…

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

In describing “Mortal sin” - which kills charity - the Catechism requires that it be “grave matter” - which is specified by (Catechism wording) by the Ten Commandments. They don’t merely, “reveal things of grave matter” (your wording in your earlier post correcting me)…

BOTH are the wording of the Catechism (not just mine). See other section of CCC on the Ten Commandments.

If I say Capital Offenses in say the State of Texas (I assume they have such on the books) are “specified” by the Texas Penal Code – such does not mean that everything one finds in that code are “capital offences”. Unless they are really hard on littering down there…

 

[Bookcat]

So far so good…
Then the Catechism says, “The gravity of sins is more or less great…” thus indicating that charity can be “more or less dead”? That the thing that kills charity is more or less severe? - - - In describing something that “Kills Charity” - - I don’t see any room for “more or less grave”.

Explained above (we posted at the same time).

I can murder someone or I can steal their car.

Both are grave matter.

One is worse than the other (and thus offends more and brings more punishment etc)

(and if I am murdered by a quick and sure gun shot -such is less grave than if the murderer slowly roasted me)

 

[Bookcat]

In venial sin - matter is not addressed in terms of gravity…but in “seriousness”.

Finally - in the cross reference you gave me…the term “light matter” is used.

Considering the number of questions that people have about what constitutes “Mortal Sin”, it seems that the Catechism itself is not very clear.

Cat - I don’t say this as anything against you or your understandings of these things.
I’m just addressing what I see in the Catechism…

Peace
James

I would say the Catechism is rather clear as is the Compendium --but life is not always so clear nor is always our understanding of things in life …I can be confused as to if X is grave matter or even sin at all.

(and of course the CCC does not cover all things in life …even courses in Moral Theology do not do that --new questions --new medical things etc come into existence all the time and even can require due to their technical nature --evaluation by competent and orthodox moral theologians)

*Venial sin *can be from either “light matter” or when there is a grave matter involved – but the either the knowledge needful is lacking or the complete consent is lacking (in order to “commit” a mortal sin)

 

[Bookcat]

The “more or less grave” is referring to gravity within that which is “grave matter” thus the examples then given. They are all grave matter but some are more grave than than others that are grave matters.

As to the Ten Commandments the CCC states: Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments…

Not that everything which falls under the Ten Commandments IS grave matter.

Hence in the introduction to the section on the Ten Commandments it specifically states that not everything is grave matter. But rather that which is light matter “in itself” also falls under such.

The obligation of the Decalogue

2072 Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations* in matter which is, in itself, light*. Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.

---

The Ten Commandments --reveal-- grave obligations --but not all matter that falls under the Ten Commandments IS grave matter.

But* certainly* the Ten Commandments reveal grave obligations (which are thus of grave matter).

 

[JRKH]

BOTH are the wording of the Catechism (not just mine). See other section of CCC on the Ten Commandments.

Fair enough…

If I say Capital Offenses in say the State of Texas (I assume they have such on the books) are “specified” by the Texas Penal Code – such does not mean that everything one finds in that code are “capital offences”. Unless they are really hard on littering down there…

If I go to the Texas penal code I will find each item enumerated very specifically (specified). In criminal codes very little is left up for speculation - which is why the codes are so voluminous. Also - when it comes to “Capital Crimes” and “Capital Punishment” Texas does not really have a greater or lesser punishment…death is death…

Peace
James

 

[fix]

Respectively disagree.

Grav Matter - This is the least subjective of the three criteria but non-the-less it is somewhat subjective.

Full Knowledge - This, as well as the third criteria is not as simple as the poster articulates. The “full knowledge” in order to be full knowledge must be accompanied with the knowledge and belief in the authority of the church. This is where “full knowledge”, becomes cloudy. I will use an example in an attempt to illustrate. Most Catholics are aware that the Chruch teaches that missing Mass (assuming for not good reason) is a sin of grave matter in the eyes of the Church. If the Catholic who does not go to Mass (who makes up the majority based on most data) every Sunday were questioned on this they would likely state that although they know that the Church teaches it is a sin of grave matter, they would debate the concept that the Church has the authority to take such a stand. Typically, I find, they are lacking in the knowledge of the teaching on Church Authority. If they believe the Church can be wrong in asserting that the sin is of grave matter, yet fully aware the Church teaches the sin is of grave matter, then the knowledge is compromised.

If one were to dispute my above idea, then one would have to believe that the individual described above, fully aware the Church teaches that missing Mass is a sin of grave matter, and fulll aware that God has given the authority for the Church to make such a claim, is comfortable KNOWING that are putting thier souls in grave danger.

In summary, ask the non-Mass going Catholic if he is aware that the Chruch teaches that his missing Mass is grave sin. If he answers in the affirmative, follow it up by asking him if he believes he is putting his soul in grave danger. Most often he will dispute the 2nd question.

This is where things get messy. This is where IMHO the Church has failed the laity. The Church is not doing the laity a favor by having it “on the books” that missing Mass (just as an example) is a grave sin, yet never, in any way, outwardly teaches this along with teaching the more difficult subject of Church Authority.

A bad analogy (I only use it to help illustrate thepoint, the analogy falls woefully short, I am aware). Assume a town passed a law that j-walking was now punishable by death. They put this law on the books but never advertised this in a way that reached most of the town folk. The town folk probably already knows that j-walking is against the law but they also know it is not taken seriously and seldom if ever enforced. I’d argue if one were arrested for this crime, they have a good defense. Again, poor analogy just trying to drive home my train of thought.

The problem I have with your analysis is that is gets the foundation wrong. We are required to know these very basic things. The CCC mentions specifically:

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

We live in a culture with great access to information. We spend endless hours on sports and entertainment. How much do we spend on our faith?

So, it seems a bit optimistic to conclude that we are non culpably ignorant of such a basic aspect of our faith when we have ample opportunity to know these things.

Where our treasure is…

 

[JRKH]

I would say the Catechism is rather clear as is the Compendium --but life is not always so clear nor is always our understanding of things in life …I can be confused as to if X is grave matter or even sin at all.

Well I certainly agree that life s not always clear - in fact - it is very often not clear…
That said…Perhaps it is that I am somewhat technically oriented and when reading the catechism on these matters I find a lot of disconnect in the terminology.
For instance…assuming the other two parts of MS are met…then any “grave matter” (whether greater of lesser) makes the sin mortal - charity is dead and one is headed for hell. Theft (Clearly a violation of a commandment) of a pencil - knowingly and willfully committed is just as spiritually deadly as theft of a car.
Now - no one wishes to say that the theft of a pencil deserves hell…so there must be some point at which “less grave”(but still grave) matter tips over into “serious” matter and therefore venial.
Unfortunately I have yet to find the connection and cross over for this.

*Venial sin *can be from either “light matter” or when there is a grave matter involved – but the either the knowledge needful is lacking or the complete consent is lacking (in order to “commit” a mortal sin)
Is the term “light matter” used anywhere else in the Catechism?
What distinguishes "light matter from “serious matter” and serious matter from “grave matter”…I haven’t yet seen an explanation of these things other than for references to taking into account - intent - and the level of harm done - both rather ambiguous terms.

This is the problem I have with the way the Catechism approaches this subject.

That said - I don’t think that the problem need be as complicated as the Catechism, and our ability to understand the Catechism, makes it. But that is a subject for a separate thread…

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

Fair enough…

If I go to the Texas penal code I will find each item enumerated very specifically (specified). In criminal codes very little is left up for speculation - which is why the codes are so voluminous. Also - when it comes to “Capital Crimes” and “Capital Punishment” Texas does not really have a greater or lesser punishment…death is death…

Peace
James

Those codes cover much much less than the Ten Commandments

and

Death in this life is one thing. The “second death” of Hell is quite another.

One who commits serial murder and dies and fixes his choice for Hell …can find a different reality than say one who committed grave theft and died in such a state…

May we all remain living in Christ! (or repent etc by grace!)

and enter into the fullness of Joy!

 

[Bookcat]

That said…Perhaps it is that I am somewhat technically oriented and when reading the catechism on these matters I find a lot of disconnect in the terminology.
For instance…assuming the other two parts of MS are met…then any “grave matter” (whether greater of lesser) makes the sin mortal - charity is dead and one is headed for hell. Theft (Clearly a violation of a commandment) of a pencil - knowingly and willfully committed is just as spiritually deadly as theft of a car.

Nowhere will one find said “theft of a pencil” is grave matter.

The Catechism says directly that not all under Ten Commandments is a grave matter. But that there is light matter.

 

[Bookcat]

Now - no one wishes to say that the theft of a pencil deserves hell…so there must be some point at which “less grave”(but still grave) matter tips over into “serious” matter and therefore venial.
Unfortunately I have yet to find the connection and cross over for this.

The Catechism does NOT say that all theft is grave matter. But murder certainly is grave…as is adultery…and rape…etc is

The Catechism is not meant to be an exhaustive document …and good moral theology formation or catechesis is needed that gets more into the nitty gritty as they say.

 

[Bookcat]

Is the term “light matter” used anywhere else in the Catechism?
What distinguishes "light matter from “serious matter” and serious matter from “grave matter”…I haven’t yet seen an explanation of these things other than for references to taking into account - intent - and the level of harm done - both rather ambiguous terms.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

Less serious matter meaning – less serious than grave matter -for grave matter had just been discussed. That is – Venial matter or light matter.

2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations** in matter which is, in itself, light.** Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

One one end is “grave matter” ---------------------------------------------------------------and on the other end— is all that is “less serious matter” --less than “grave matter”

And then there is when one has “grave matter” but one lacks the needed knowledge and/or the complete consent needed for the “committing” of a mortal sin (grave sin, serious sin --all mean the same “sin”)

 

[JRKH]

The Catechism says that "Grave matter is specified (something specific) by (not just within) the Ten Commandments.

Seventh commandment…
You shall not steal.

2401 The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one’s neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods
Unjustly take a pencil = theft = wronging a neighbor = forbidden = grave matter = mortal sin.

Now granted - I accept that there can be mitigating circumstances in these things - So I am only talking about “normative” and highly simplistic situation.
Now - if you wish to assert that stealing a pencil is NOT grave matter as specifically defined by the section on Mortal and venial sin…I’m all eyes…

Again - I’m not trying to attack - It’s more that I’m playing devils advocate.

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

The Catechism says that "Grave matter is specified (something specific) by (not just within) the Ten Commandments.

Seventh commandment…
You shall not steal.

2401 The seventh commandment forbids unjustly taking or keeping the goods of one’s neighbor and wronging him in any way with respect to his goods
Unjustly take a pencil = theft = wronging a neighbor = forbidden = grave matter = mortal sin.

Now granted - I accept that there can be mitigating circumstances in these things - So I am only talking about “normative” and highly simplistic situation.
Now - if you wish to assert that stealing a pencil is NOT grave matter as specifically defined by the section on Mortal and venial sin…I’m all eyes…

Again - I’m not trying to attack - It’s more that I’m playing devils advocate.

Peace
James

Yes "Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.

And

2072 Since they express man’s fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. The Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations in matter which is, in itself, light. Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.

Of course to complicate things further–theft can be more “complicated” – normally one would judge the theft of a pencil to be “venial matter” (people do not hold pencils usually to be of much value)–but if say the pencil is the one I need to use here and now to do my test and without it I will not say get into law school – and you steal it knowing this is the case–well even though the “thing” was not of much value in itself – the matter here is non-the-less grave --due to the need of it to enter law school. Its “value” taking into account the whole value. The Pencil may also be pencil given to me by my Grandfather on his death bed as an heirloom… (gets complicated with theft --so best leave that example aside–other to note that there can be venial matter and grave matter).

 

[Bookcat]

One one end is “grave matter” ---------------------------------------------------------------and on the other end— is all that is “less serious matter” --less than “grave matter”

 

[JRKH]

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

Less serious matter meaning – less serious than grave matter -for grave matter had just been discussed. That is – Venial matter or light matter.

2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations** in matter which is, in itself, light.** Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.

So - at what point does “less grave” (but still grave and therefore mortal) trip over into “serious” and assuming that “serious” likewise has levels…at what point does it become “light” or “heavy”?
In short…At what point of “weight” or degree does one become liable to damnation as opposed to purgatory?

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

This is actually a wonderful example of what I am talking about in terms of not being clear in terminology.
It begins by speaking of gravity or the graveness of the sin, that is, more or less grave which clearly speaks to this being a matter of mortal sin.
But then it says "if the lie itself only constitutes venial sin (serious or light matter rather than grave matter)…
This makes my brain say - :hypno:
"The Lie itself is grave matter…Period for it violates a specific commandment…Now the specific circumstances might mitigate the degree of gravity and it might even reach a point where the degree tips over into the realm of “serious” matter or even “light” matter…but the lie itself (done with knowledge and consent) remains a grave matter .

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

So - at what point does “less grave” (but still grave and therefore mortal) trip over into “serious” and assuming that “serious” likewise has levels…at what point does it become “light” or “heavy”?
In short…At what point of “weight” or degree does one become liable to damnation as opposed to purgatory?

That is something that is known by natural moral law, Divine revelation, The Teaching of the Church and Catholic Moral Theology …as well as the light of the judgement of ones well formed conscience…ones confessor can assist…etc etc.

Mortal sin is committed when there is grave matter, full knowledge and deliberate consent.

 

[Bookcat]

It begins by speaking of gravity or the graveness of the sin, that is, more or less grave which clearly speaks to this being a matter of mortal sin.
But then it says "if the lie itself only constitutes venial sin (serious or light matter rather than grave matter)…
This makes my brain say - :hypno:
"The Lie itself is grave matter…Period for it violates a specific commandment…Now the specific circumstances might mitigate the degree of gravity and it might even reach a point where the degree tips over into the realm of “serious” matter or even “light” matter…but the lie itself (done with knowledge and consent) remains a grave matter .

Peace
James

The difficulty is the misconception in your particular reading of the CCC that when it says that grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments – that it means that everything contrary to the Ten Commandments IS grave matter. It does not mean that. It was just a misreading (can happen to us all as I know!)

To use a more extreme example --someone could have the misconception that when Jesus says if your eye causes you to sin – pluck it out- such is what they are physically to do. Their misconception needs to be cleared up --but it is a misconception --not what Jesus intended to be done.

Lying in often in matter “venial” not grave. (It does not say that all lying is venial matter) Perjury for example is an example of a grave lie. Telling ones wife that she is not fat is an example of a venial matter (all things being equal).

If I know say that “to tell this lie” is a venial matter --and I deliberately lie with full knowledge and complete consent–I have committed a deliberate venial sin of lying by reason of the matter. Not good --and a sin. But certainly not a mortal sin.

If I know have say lustful thoughts occur to me (such is grave matter) and have the “full knowledge” --but do not give complete consent --such is by reason of my lack of complete consent a venial sin (or no sin at all if say they were only some temptation out of the blue that I resist!)–even though it was grave matter and I had the needful knowledge.

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

“matter is less serious” = less serious than “grave matter” (thus one could call it “matter that is not grave” or “venial matter” or “light matter” etc)