"Full of Grace" or "Favored one"

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Why is there a change?
Wasn’t the original translation Full of Grace why has the translation in the NAB changed to Favored one?🤷
 
thankfully they chanhged the current Lectionarie back to “full of grace”
 
The Vulgate says “have gratia plena.” Why is there an “h” tacked on to “ave”? I have no idea. But the words “gratia plena (filled by grace)” are there.
 
Does it really matter if it says “full of grace” or “favored one”…?

It seems that both are pretty good.
 
Scholastic17 said:
The Vulgate says “have gratia plena.” Why is there an “h” tacked on to “ave”? I have no idea. But the words “gratia plena (filled by grace)” are there.
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Correction the Struggart “Biblia Sacra Vulgata” has an h attached to ave. The Clementine edition does not and neither does the Nova Vulgata, which replaced the Clementine Edition of the Vulgate. The Struggart isn’t approved by the Catholic Church in any way. I does matter on Full of Grace instead of favored one. Just because one is favored doesn’t mean that that person is full of grace. Also the NAB isn’t the only version that uses favored one. The NJB and JB both used favored one. They also use the word rejoice instead of hail. None of these version have blessed are thou amongst women at the end of Luke 1:28 either. The Douay-Rheims is a word for word translation of the Latin Vulgate and it uses hail full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou amongst women. The RSV-CE is the only post Vatican II Catholic Bible that uses Full of Grace, but doesn’t have blessed are thou amongst women at the end. As for the NAB it the original did. have blessed are thou amongst women. Also the Confraternity Edition and Ronald Knox Translation does use Hail Full of Grace.
 
problem:
full of grace (kekaritomene)
full of grace (plaras karitos)

you can’t tell the difference between the two greek expressions in english…so if

favored one (kekaritomene)
full of grace (plaras karitos)

now can tell the difference. Don’t know if that’s what the NAB translators were up against when they translated kekaritomene as ‘favored one’ 🤷
 
tobinatorstark said:
Correction the Struggart “Biblia Sacra Vulgata” has an h attached to ave. The Clementine edition does not and neither does the Nova Vulgata, which replaced the Clementine Edition of the Vulgate. The Struggart isn’t approved by the Catholic Church in any way. I does matter on Full of Grace instead of favored one. Just because one is favored doesn’t mean that that person is full of grace. Also the NAB isn’t the only version that uses favored one. The NJB and JB both used favored one. They also use the word rejoice instead of hail. None of these version have blessed are thou amongst women at the end of Luke 1:28 either. The Douay-Rheims is a word for word translation of the Latin Vulgate and it uses hail full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou amongst women. The RSV-CE is the only post Vatican II Catholic Bible that uses Full of Grace, but doesn’t have blessed are thou amongst women at the end. As for the NAB it the original did. have blessed are thou amongst women. Also the Confraternity Edition and Ronald Knox Translation does use Hail Full of Grace.
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Toby,

In this, thou hast answered rightly.

However, please do let it go re “Blessed are you among women” in Luke 1:28. 🙂

As you know, it does occur on Luke 1:42: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” Thus from Luke 1:28 and 1:42, even as they are rendered in the RSV-CE, we can indeed construct the first part of the Hail Mary without having to stretch.

Again, but with amplification, the rest of your post re the distinctions among the various editions of the Vulgate is correct. 👍
 
Manfred said:
Toby,

In this, thou hast answered rightly.

However, please do let it go re “Blessed are you among women” in Luke 1:28. 🙂

As you know, it does occur on Luke 1:42: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” Thus from Luke 1:28 and 1:42, even as they are rendered in the RSV-CE, we can indeed construct the first part of the Hail Mary without having to stretch.

Again, but with amplification, the rest of your post re the distinctions among the various editions of the Vulgate is correct. 👍
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This merely shows how this verse looks over time. As all Bibles from 400 to 1800 say one thing and how most Bible post 1800 have that verse stated. The RSV-CE in this case is does a fine job of with The annunciation and the following events that occurred soon after the Annunciation. I do however feel that it was a mistake to take blessed are thou amongst women from Luke 1:28. By no means does it distort the beginning of the Hail Mary as Luke 1:42 also has blessed are thou amongst women. I do feel that it does distort what the Archangel Gabriel said. It just doesn’t feel complete. This however doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t read this Bible or that Bible because of the how that verse is stated. Just simply stating my displeasure with the ending of that verse. As for the Vulgate, it just simply the best outside the founding of the Catholic Faith and Church
 
I have a Protestant Bible, the Ryrie Study Bible-KJV, that translates kekaritomene as “full of grace” in the footnotes.
 
the controversy of the translation of Luke 1:28. The Protestant Christians have translated this verse as Mary being “highly favoured”. Prior to 1500’s all Bibles translated as Mary “full of grace” Though when one considers the below information, even “full of grace” does not fully explain the perfection that is in those w ords.The original King Jams of 1600 when it changed the translation to highly favored placed in their margin notes that it could have been translated as much graced. The Geneva Bible did the same thing, and the **Geneva Commentary **stated that the verse could just as well be rendered full of Grace. After 1500’s and on all Protestant Bibles would render as highly favored, or favored and would eliminate the margin notes. The Wycliff Bible and the Tyndale Bible would render as “full of grace”. The Latin Vulgate from about 370 AD would of course render the translation as full of grace. The Aramaic Peshitta Bible (an early Christian Hebrew translation) renders as “full of grace”. The Aramaic Peshitta dates to about 100 –500 AD depending on the source stating its original publication either way it is within a few centuries of one side or the other of the Latin Vulgate.

**Archibald Thomas Robertson a Greek grammatist and Baptist describes **the meaning of the Original Greek word in Robertson Word Pictures:

** “Luk 1:28 - Highly favoured (kecharitōmenē). Perfect passive participle of charitoō and means endowed with grace. The Vulgate gratiae plena “is right, if it means full of grace which thou hast received.”**

Kecharitomene being a perfect passive participle, one must look at the greek grammer and menaing here.
Strongs tense Voice and Mood dictionary Defines Perfect Passive Participle as such
G5772
Tense-Perfect See [G5778]
Voice-Passive See [G5786]
Mood -Participle See [G5796]

G5778
Tense-Perfect : The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. (completely and perfectly done-finished what is completed the action on the word charito which means grace is completely and perfectly graced)

G5786
Voice-Passive : The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action.

G5796
Mood-Participle : The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the English participle, reflecting “- ing” or “- ed” being suffixed to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either
like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a “verbal noun.”

So which is it highly favored or full of grace. The original Greek is a very special word used no other time in all of Scripture. kecharitōmene is a perfect passive participle in the Greek. This word has both noun and verb properties so in essence Mary’s name is “full of Grace” ; see definitions above. There is not any English equivalent to this word. By definition a perfect Passive participle describes a perfectly completed action which has occurred in the past, with continuance of the same action in the present and an expectation of continuance of the same action into the future. So this is applied to the base word charitō in Kecharitomene. The base word charito means grace, so by definition Mary was perfectly and completely graced in the past with a continuance of the action at present and expectation of the same action into the future. That is the reason why a Baptist Greek linguist Archibald Thomas Robertson must admit that Saint Jerome’s Latin Vulgate was right to translate as full of grace. If Mary is completely and perfectly graced by God there is no longer any room what so-ever for sin.
 
I realize that many of you either are not familiar with, or have low regard for, the New Jerusalem Bible (1985), which renders Luke 1:28 as follows:

“Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour.”

However, the footnote to this verse reads: lit., “you who have been and remain filled with the divine favour”, an interpretation which seems to me to accord with the full meaning of the Greek word.

Note to tobinatorstark: the same footnote also states: Add. “Of all women you are most blessed”, under the influence of 1:42.
 
full of grace (kekaritomene)
full of grace (plaras karitos)

As many have noted…

Kecharitomene features the root word Chartioo meaning to fill with grace. The root, with different stems, is used by Paul in Ephesians and gets translated as grace, so why favour for Mary?

Kecharitomene (a perfect passive participle) shows that Mary wasn’t just filled or endowed with grace. It was a permanent fullness of grace sometime before the angels visit with the effects ongoing throughout her life.

The Greek doesn’t properly translate into English, so as the Greek is vocative (a title) is has traditionally been translated as full of grace, the gist of the Greek.

Thou that art the Pope – not vocative
The Pope - vocative

The ancient Latin, Arabic and Syriac translations (when biblical Greek was still spoken) for example, translate full of grace

Coverdale did full of grace

Tyndale, even with all his not so traditional renderings, did full of grace

Westminster bible from the 1910s did full of grace

Christian community bible from 1980s does full of grace

Catholic bibles in other languages such as Italian do full of grace

Popes JPII and BXVI say the Greek is full of grace as does the Catechism

As St Thomas Moore says in the English language not all favour is grace. Full of grace better represents the Greek than favored one in my op.

Never seen a bible that transaltes Paul as saying ‘justified by favour’
 
Kecharitomene is untranslatable into English, or at least good English, unless we want a really funny-sounding Bible.

Highly favored is a close, but insufficient, translation. Full of grace is a closer, but still insufficient translation (as it loses the vocative and perfect (continuing) sense of the Greek).

I’d rather have “full of grace” than “highly favored” but no way will I draw any dogma from an English translation of any kind on this word. Even the Latin falls short. Only the Greek will do here.
Thou that art the Pope – not vocative
The Pope - vocative
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To be more precise, the vocative is used as an address, so this should read more as

“O Pope…” or “Hey Pope…”

Kecharitomene is a vocative substantive, which means that the participle is standing in as a noun, which is used in direct address. This is how we know that kecharitomene is used as a title of address, rather than a description.
 
If Mary is full of grace…
  • She must have been filled sometime in the past to be full
  • It must be a fullness of grace
  • As the Bible doesn’t say otherwise, she must have kept this grace all the rest of her life - not lost it
  • In lieu of v.30 God gave her this grace - passive
  • And if we capitalise - Full of Grace - it’s vocative
Don’t then by full of grace, we have the Greek perfect passive participle covered?
 
Canto said:
If Mary is full of grace…
  • She must have been filled sometime in the past to be full
  • It must be a fullness of grace
  • As the Bible doesn’t say otherwise, she must have kept this grace all the rest of her life - not lost it
  • In lieu of v.30 God gave her this grace - passive
  • And if we capitalise - Full of Grace - it’s vocative
Don’t then by full of grace, we have the Greek perfect passive participle covered?
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This is essentially how the Byzantine Christians express what we call the Immaculate Conception. Actually, I find it a better expression than the one used in the dogmatic definition of Pope Pius IX.
 
Canto said:
full of grace (kekaritomene)
full of grace (plaras karitos)

As St Thomas Moore says in the English language not all favour is grace. Full of grace better represents the Greek than favored one in my op.

Never seen a bible that transaltes Paul as saying ‘justified by favour’
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Can you source St Thomas Moore quote for me. It is so true.
 
RCWarrior821 said:
Why is there a change?
Wasn’t the original translation Full of Grace why has the translation in the NAB changed to Favored one?🤷
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Did the NAB ever render it Full of Grace? I cannot lay hands on my 1970 edition at the moment, but I don’t think so?

tee
 
tee_eff_em said:
Did the NAB ever render it Full of Grace? I cannot lay hands on my 1970 edition at the moment, but I don’t think so?

tee
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No it has rendered full of grace. The 1970 edition I believe says “Hail highly favored daughter” and the 1986 revision says “Hail highly favored one” The NAB was revised in 1991, but just the Psalms which have been highly rejected for liturgy and the Vatican
 
tobinatorstark said:
Code: 
No it has rendered full of grace.
The 1970 edition I believe says “Hail highly favored daughter” and the 1986 revision says “Hail highly favored one” The NAB was revised in 1991, but just the Psalms which have been highly rejected for liturgy and the Vatican
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[Was that a typo? Otherwise I do not understand?]

Which, if my recollection is correct, it is disingnenuous of the OP to ask why *Full of Grace *was changed to *Favored one *-- It is a different translation than the Douay-Rheims (or whichever is being compared to), made according to different principles.

One might as well ask why the thousands of words surrounding Luke 1:28 were changed, no?

🤷 indeed
tee
 
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