full of grace

[Ignatius]

I happened to notice that the phrase “full of grace” is used in both Luke 1:28 and John 1:14. My question is, In the original Greek, does the phrase use the same wording in both Luke 1:28 and John 1:14 for the expression “full of Grace”?

 

[cfrancis]

Here’s a link to an online interlinear. I copied the greek, but it isn’t presented in the greek characters; still you see a difference in words and phrasing:

Lk 1:28
kecaritwmenh = having been graced

Jn 1:14
plhrhs caritos = full of grace

Note Jn 1:14 speaks of Christ, who, by His nature, is full of grace; Lk 1:28 speaks of His creature, Mary, who has been given grace by God.

 

[tobinatorstark]

John 1:14 would be a yes. Luke 1:28 may or may not be. The manuscripts found nearly 200 years still don’t prove that they are older than those that Jerome used in from 382-400. And no comparison can be made between the documents because those that Jerome used withered away. I would have to say that Luke 1:28 would be full of grace or else it would have been changed sometime between 400 and 1560. I believe that the Geneva was the first English translation not to use Hail full of grace in 1560.

 

[Savagedds]

Hi,

the tense of the Greek used in Luke 1:28 is perfect passive participle, which tells us that the action of “gracing” or “favoring” was done in the past by someone else and in a way that need not be repeated.

It seems to me that Jerome, rendering this translation gratia plena,was intending to convey the understanding that there was a deeper meaning to be taken than the more literal translation “she who has been favored/graced” would convey. “Full of grace” is a somewhat poetic rendering, but with our modern understanding of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception it seems the more appropriate rendering. A little poetic license in honor of one’s Mother is no vice.

Pax,

Jim

 

[Canto]

As noted Mary is Kechartiomene
Jesus is pleres charitos

Jesus’ literally translates as full of grace

Marys’ can not be properly translated into English as it is a perfect passive particple yet vocative - God’s very name for Mary.

Kechartiomene roughly translates however as - You who have been and remain filled with grace - by God (v30).

This is not vocative however.

By the way as Mary was graced in the past it would logically be her conception - thus Luke’s use of the ‘deeper’ Kechartiomene.

As fullness is implicit in the Greek and it is grace Jerome did full of grace, this kept it vocative.

Full of grace, gives one the gist of Kechartiomene, a word used nowhere else in the whole entire Bible.

Tyndale, Coverdale, the Aramaic Peshita and I believe the Vetus Latin as well as modern tranlsations like the Westminster and Christian Community Bible for example, all do full of grace.

Note: some translate favour and many readers take on the English definition but in Greek favour relates to divine grace not mere favour.

 

[Savagedds]

Looks like you know a lot more about Greek than I do. What does ‘vocative’ mean and what is its significance?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[Canto]

Looks like you know a lot more about Greek than I do. What does ‘vocative’ mean and what is its significance?

Thanks,

Jim

Vocative means that somebody is being addressed and that form of address is in a sense a title.

Mr President
your Majesty
your Holiness
etc

In Luke 1:28 the angel does not say Hail Mary but rather Hail Kecharitomene or full of grace.

The significance is that Kecharitomene is not just a description but a name for Mary, God’s name for her, a name involving grace which she recieved in the past (her conception), grace which we are justified by.

 

[porthos11]

Looks like you know a lot more about Greek than I do. What does ‘vocative’ mean and what is its significance?

Thanks,

Jim

Vocative is a grammatical case, in which a noun is used to address someone. Contrast with other cases, such as the nominative:

The jerk insulted me. - “Jerk” here is nominative, as it’s used as a subject.
Carl is a jerk. - Jerk is also nominative, as a predicate.
Shut up, jerk! - Jerk here is vocative, as it’s used to address someone. Another way of making a noun clearly vocative is to prefix it with O, e.g. “O Jerk, do be quiet.”

 

[DD2007]

I happened to notice that the phrase “full of grace” is used in both Luke 1:28 and John 1:14. My question is, In the original Greek, does the phrase use the same wording in both Luke 1:28 and John 1:14 for the expression “full of Grace”?

I have a friend who is a native Athenian, a Greek Orthodox Christian, and well schooled in ancient greek…etc

He said that the term “Kecharitomene” is a term that has very ancient roots.

He said in the mind it recalls the graces of ancient mythology and means to be filled with that which the graces have…grace.

---

The Graces(Charites) were three lovely goddesses of Joy, Charm and Beauty
According to a myth, the Charites were daughters of King Zeus and the Oceanid Eurynome.

There were three Charites in Greek Mythology: Aglaia, the Grace that symbolized Beauty, Euphrosyne, the Grace of Delight and Thalia, the Grace of Blossom. According to Greek poet Pindar, these enchanting goddesses were created to fill the world with pleasant moments and goodwill.

Usually the Graces were attending the Greek goddess of Beauty Aphrodite and her companion Eros and loved dancing around in a circle to Apollo’s divine music, together with the Nymphs and the Muses.

The Roman name of Charites is “Graces”

from this link: greek-gods.info/ancient-greek-gods/charites/​

So “full of grace” means one who is full of that which the graces have which is grace, in the context of graceful. So, it would be “hail, graceful, lady…” or however you want to translate this.

This is all according to him though. I haven’t seen anything else on this. He is a pretty bright guy though. So, I imagine ther is some good reason he thinks this way.