Full text: Laudato Si

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Unfortunately it will be used to implement more socialist measures, in the name of protecting the environment.
We will see what happens. Of course, one mans socialism is another man’s prudent government. For example, if the government gave a tax credit for buying an electric car, that would be seen as socialism, yet those same people often have no problem with the mortgage interest deduction.
 
  1. Please you and others stop attacking me and others based on your assumptions. In my case you are dead wrong.
  2. You have a problem me and others here giving stylistic criticism. Yet, you do not have a problem with “A very intelligent non-theist” doing the same. I don’t see those who are joining in your personal attacks pointing this out. Therefore, I see a clear bias here.
  3. You can have an opinion that I write like a chimp. That is fine and dandy. But as soon as you push an assumption of motive on someone such as myself, you are being uncharitable.
When did I say you write like a chimp? 🤷 I did not presume that you or anybody else has malicious motives. I was merely proferring a possibility as to why offensive words were being directed the pope’s way, before ending with the thought that it might really be a simple matter of taste that could have been expressed more delicately and politely.

You write coherently and well as far as I can tell. I’m only suggesting that people respectfully critique the ideas in the encyclical rather than make insulting statements about the pope, the papal writing style and his intentions.

Ridgerunner has proven that it is more than possible to disagree strongly with the pope’s expressed views on climate change without wandering into needless offence and opprobrium. I was merely highlighting my disapproval of others who engaged in what I saw as rude language vis-a-vis our Holy Father.
 
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Vouthon:
When did I say you write like a chimp? 🤷
I didn’t say you did. But, I did say if you did, it would be fine by me.
I did not presume that you or anybody else has malicious motives. I was merely proferring a possibility as to why offensive words were being directed the pope’s way, before ending with the thought that it might really be a simple matter of taste that could have been expressed more delicately and politely.
Don’t even suggest it. It’s still impugning motives. So let’s stop with it.
You write coherently and well as far as I can tell. I’m only suggesting that people respectfully critique the ideas in the encyclical rather than make insulting statements about the pope, the papal writing style and his intentions.
Thanks. I’m quite subpar for internet foruming. More on that later.

We’re talking about an encyclical for the ages here right? All the ducks should be lined up in a row. Besides, stylistically it is what it is. If I had not known it was a Papal Encyclical, I wouldn’t have any literary expections of it.
Ridgerunner has proven that it is more than possible to disagree strongly with the pope’s expressed views on climate change without wandering into needless offence and opprobrium. I was merely highlighting my disapproval of others who engaged in what I saw as rude language vis-a-vis our Holy Father.
I don’t disagree with the first part. Therefore, I could have thought this Encyclical came from someone like Ridgerunner. Very well-written on an internet forum. It is also, written in a self-reflective, musing sort of way. Much better than I could expect to achieve. Not the usual Papal Encyclical material, IMO. But, then again it never had to be. It just didn’t meet up to my expectations.
 
Perhaps if Christians in other countries refused to do business with them until they cleaned up their act, they would have an incentive to take the encyclical seriously. I mean, I am all for free trade, but if my buying cheap junk from China is causing more pollution, perhaps I share part of the blame as well.
Agree again. What is the world coming to.
 
I am still at least a bit intrigued by some of the European posters’ declaring that MMGW is not at all questioned there and expressing their surprise that it is in the U.S.

One thing I wonder about, very unscientifically, is that climatic zones are very different in Europe. In Europe, climatic zones essentially run from west to east until one gets well into Russia. In North America, north of the Rio Grande, at least, they run essentially south to north, with some upturn on both coasts, more on the west than the east.

That leads to odd differences in climate as one travels around the world. Where I live, in southern Missouri, is on about the same latitude as the southern tip of Spain and a good part of North Africa. Date palm trees grow in the latter, but not where I live. But it also is on the same latitude as much colder Korea.

The east-west configuration in Europe, we are told, is due entirely to the Atlantic current from the tropics that keeps, say, England, from being as frigid as Labrador, which is directly across the Atlantic from Britain.

But north is still north and south is still south, and Europe also has “continental” effects that are peculiar to the place. I’ll misspell them, but there is the oddity called the “mistral” and the desert wind from Africa called the “sirocco”.

In North America, there are highs and lows and variations in the jet stream, but most of the country is pretty “seasonal” within each climatic zone. We don’t get desert winds from North Africa, or anything like them, or dramatically frigid blasts from the North Pole unless we live pretty far to the north.

And so, it may well seem to western Europeans that climate is more erratic than it seems to us, particularly those of us who live well within the continent. Despite being on the same latitude as the southern tip of Spain, we can’t grow date palms…not ever…not even for one year. Nor can we grow vinifera graps, ever, even though they can in the Rhineland, which is far to the north of here. Never could, and probably never will. But it’s hot in the summer, always, much more so than (I understand) it ever is in France, and it lasts a lot longer than it does in Europe…always. A few years ago, there were thousands of deaths from heat in France. But we don’t get those deaths in Texas, despite the fact that a Frenchman dropped in Texas anytime during the summer would think he landed in hell. That’s because Texas is always incredibly hot in the summer, and nobody expects it to ever be otherwise. And nobody in Texas is unprepared or thinks it strange.

And nobody in New England is ever truly surprised when it gets terribly cold and snows three feet deep, because it does that in New England, regularly.

I have said before on here that when I was a kid, you couldn’t successfully grow a Bermuda grass hay crop north of Springfield, Mo, but you could south of it. Bermuda is a “warm season grass” and can’t thrive in cooler temperatures. It’s no different today, decades later. If there was MMGW, one would think the “Bermuda belt” would have crept at least a little bit north, but it hasn’t.

And so, to a North American, there is no discernible MMGW. Nobody experiences it. His grandfather’s recount of the heat and cold in his youth is the same as his own experience of them. And it’s a great deal easier to be skeptical of MMGW than it might be to a Frenchman who has only once in his lifetime (and perhaps his parents’ lifetimes) experienced the kind of heat people have in Texas every year without fail, and fully expect.
 
And so, to a North American, there is no discernible MMGW. Nobody experiences it. .
Not true.
“While the earth has warmed approximately 1°F in the last 50 years, according to the National Assessment Synthesis Team, Alaska has warmed approximately 4°F during this same time period. …In the Last Frontier these impacts are pervasive and include damage to Alaska’s aquatic systems and wetlands, vegetation, ice, glaciers, permafrost, animals, infrastructure, health, economy, quality of life, and indigenous cultures.”
eoearth.org/view/article/153781/
 
I am sure that this encyclical is a deep disappointment to those on the left who were, sure it going to be a ringing condemnation of those you don’t buy into AGW and demand that Catholics support or suffer eternal damnation . In fact the pope reiterated that the church is not going to get involved in the scientific dispute about AGW, that that is not their purpose . In fact his encyclical said nothing that prior popes had not said including condemning those in the environmental movement who push population control as a method of saving the planet and once again tied opposition to abortion to truly caring about the planet.
 
Not true.
“While the earth has warmed approximately 1°F in the last 50 years, according to the National Assessment Synthesis Team, Alaska has warmed approximately 4°F during this same time period. …In the Last Frontier these impacts are pervasive and include damage to Alaska’s aquatic systems and wetlands, vegetation, ice, glaciers, permafrost, animals, infrastructure, health, economy, quality of life, and indigenous cultures.”
eoearth.org/view/article/153781/
Sure, and there are undoubtedly credentialed people who say the exact opposite. We have seen the “my quote is better than your quote” back and forth for years now on CAF. And nothing is ever resolved. It’s equivalent to the “upcoming market crash” versus the “DOW at 20,000 in 2016”. If one fails to pan out, the proponents just change the dates and the explanation.

And the MMGW supporters have done exactly that. If ice is growing at the south pole, it’s because MMGW is causing more evaporation and more snow, but it will recede to nothing by 2020. If there is no measurable global warming for 18 years, it’s because it’s hiding under the ice, or in the deep ocean or under the bed.
 
I am still at least a bit intrigued by some of the European posters’ declaring that MMGW is not at all questioned there and expressing their surprise that it is in the U.S.

One thing I wonder about, very unscientifically, is that climatic zones are very different in Europe. In Europe, climatic zones essentially run from west to east until one gets well into Russia. In North America, north of the Rio Grande, at least, they run essentially south to north, with some upturn on both coasts, more on the west than the east.

That leads to odd differences in climate as one travels around the world. Where I live, in southern Missouri, is on about the same latitude as the southern tip of Spain and a good part of North Africa. Date palm trees grow in the latter, but not where I live. But it also is on the same latitude as much colder Korea.

The east-west configuration in Europe, we are told, is due entirely to the Atlantic current from the tropics that keeps, say, England, from being as frigid as Labrador, which is directly across the Atlantic from Britain.

But north is still north and south is still south, and Europe also has “continental” effects that are peculiar to the place. I’ll misspell them, but there is the oddity called the “mistral” and the desert wind from Africa called the “sirocco”.

In North America, there are highs and lows and variations in the jet stream, but most of the country is pretty “seasonal” within each climatic zone. We don’t get desert winds from North Africa, or anything like them, or dramatically frigid blasts from the North Pole unless we live pretty far to the north.

And so, it may well seem to western Europeans that climate is more erratic than it seems to us, particularly those of us who live well within the continent. Despite being on the same latitude as the southern tip of Spain, we can’t grow date palms…not ever…not even for one year. Nor can we grow vinifera graps, ever, even though they can in the Rhineland, which is far to the north of here. Never could, and probably never will. But it’s hot in the summer, always, much more so than (I understand) it ever is in France, and it lasts a lot longer than it does in Europe…always. A few years ago, there were thousands of deaths from heat in France. But we don’t get those deaths in Texas, despite the fact that a Frenchman dropped in Texas anytime during the summer would think he landed in hell. That’s because Texas is always incredibly hot in the summer, and nobody expects it to ever be otherwise. And nobody in Texas is unprepared or thinks it strange.

And nobody in New England is ever truly surprised when it gets terribly cold and snows three feet deep, because it does that in New England, regularly.

I have said before on here that when I was a kid, you couldn’t successfully grow a Bermuda grass hay crop north of Springfield, Mo, but you could south of it. Bermuda is a “warm season grass” and can’t thrive in cooler temperatures. It’s no different today, decades later. If there was MMGW, one would think the “Bermuda belt” would have crept at least a little bit north, but it hasn’t.

And so, to a North American, there is no discernible MMGW. Nobody experiences it. His grandfather’s recount of the heat and cold in his youth is the same as his own experience of them. And it’s a great deal easier to be skeptical of MMGW than it might be to a Frenchman who has only once in his lifetime (and perhaps his parents’ lifetimes) experienced the kind of heat people have in Texas every year without fail, and fully expect.
That is an interesting perspective. There are places that have warmed or cooled regionally, or not at all across the globe. The Arctic has warmed compared to the Antarctic, but to what extent is somewhat in question due to differences in methods of surface or satellite data collection, quality, and analysis. This is an ongoing issue, but I think improvements are being made to standardize the surface stations, and also the microwave sounders. Instrumentation is only one issue, natural variability is another elephant in the room that must be reckoned with.

Another thing to consider is that in Europe and elsewhere outside the United States, the use of titles such as “Dr.” and “Engineer” are controlled by regulatory bodies, and much more weight and credibility are bestowed upon the recipients of these titles by the general populace after certification, than in the United States. I have experienced this first hand on many overseas adventures.
 
I am sure that this encyclical is a deep disappointment to those on the left who were, sure it going to be a ringing condemnation of those you don’t buy into AGW and demand that Catholics support or suffer eternal damnation . In fact the pope reiterated that the church is not going to get involved in the scientific dispute about AGW, that that is not their purpose . In fact his encyclical said nothing that prior popes had not said including condemning those in the environmental movement who push population control as a method of saving the planet and once again tied opposition to abortion to truly caring about the planet.
He also took a shot at Al Gore’s selling “carbon credits”. He did do that.
 
Sure, and there are undoubtedly credentialed people who say the exact opposite. We have seen the “my quote is better than your quote” back and forth for years now on CAF. And nothing is ever resolved. It’s equivalent to the “upcoming market crash” versus the “DOW at 20,000 in 2016”. If one fails to pan out, the proponents just change the dates and the explanation.

And the MMGW supporters have done exactly that. If ice is growing at the south pole, it’s because MMGW is causing more evaporation and more snow, but it will recede to nothing by 2020. If there is no measurable global warming for 18 years, it’s because it’s hiding under the ice, or in the deep ocean or under the bed.
Oh my. “I can’t locate my warming, perhaps it rolled under the couch.”

Dueling experts, “My PhD is bigger than yours,” and my favorite, “Even if it’s not true, we should still do something.”
 
Sure, and there are undoubtedly credentialed people who say the exact opposite…
Can you give us a credentialed individual who says that Alaska has not warmed by approximately 4 degrees F in the last 50 years?
 
Can you give us a credentialed individual who says that Alaska has not warmed by approximately 4 degrees F in the last 50 years?
Yesterday I was challenged to produce a scientist who lied. I did. Several in fact. But it didn’t convince my interlocutor.

Sometime or other, I might. But this really has gotten boring.
 
Yesterday I was challenged to produce a scientist who lied. I did. Several in fact. But it didn’t convince my interlocutor…
Oh, I was convinced the scientist lied. Your reference was very compelling to that point. But as Hans pointed out, that same article showed how scientists themselves were the ones who eventually detected and corrected the error. So I still contend that on scientific questions, you are more likely to be in the right if you go with what scientists are saying than any other choice I can think of.
 
I am still at least a bit intrigued by some of the European posters’ declaring that MMGW is not at all questioned there and expressing their surprise that it is in the U.S.

One thing I wonder about, very unscientifically, is that climatic zones are very different in Europe. In Europe, climatic zones essentially run from west to east until one gets well into Russia. In North America, north of the Rio Grande, at least, they run essentially south to north, with some upturn on both coasts, more on the west than the east.

That leads to odd differences in climate as one travels around the world. Where I live, in southern Missouri, is on about the same latitude as the southern tip of Spain and a good part of North Africa. Date palm trees grow in the latter, but not where I live. But it also is on the same latitude as much colder Korea.

The east-west configuration in Europe, we are told, is due entirely to the Atlantic current from the tropics that keeps, say, England, from being as frigid as Labrador, which is directly across the Atlantic from Britain.

But north is still north and south is still south, and Europe also has “continental” effects that are peculiar to the place. I’ll misspell them, but there is the oddity called the “mistral” and the desert wind from Africa called the “sirocco”.

In North America, there are highs and lows and variations in the jet stream, but most of the country is pretty “seasonal” within each climatic zone. We don’t get desert winds from North Africa, or anything like them, or dramatically frigid blasts from the North Pole unless we live pretty far to the north.

And so, it may well seem to western Europeans that climate is more erratic than it seems to us, particularly those of us who live well within the continent. Despite being on the same latitude as the southern tip of Spain, we can’t grow date palms…not ever…not even for one year. Nor can we grow vinifera graps, ever, even though they can in the Rhineland, which is far to the north of here. Never could, and probably never will. But it’s hot in the summer, always, much more so than (I understand) it ever is in France, and it lasts a lot longer than it does in Europe…always. A few years ago, there were thousands of deaths from heat in France. But we don’t get those deaths in Texas, despite the fact that a Frenchman dropped in Texas anytime during the summer would think he landed in hell. That’s because Texas is always incredibly hot in the summer, and nobody expects it to ever be otherwise. And nobody in Texas is unprepared or thinks it strange.

And nobody in New England is ever truly surprised when it gets terribly cold and snows three feet deep, because it does that in New England, regularly.

I have said before on here that when I was a kid, you couldn’t successfully grow a Bermuda grass hay crop north of Springfield, Mo, but you could south of it. Bermuda is a “warm season grass” and can’t thrive in cooler temperatures. It’s no different today, decades later. If there was MMGW, one would think the “Bermuda belt” would have crept at least a little bit north, but it hasn’t.

And so, to a North American, there is no discernible MMGW. Nobody experiences it. His grandfather’s recount of the heat and cold in his youth is the same as his own experience of them. And it’s a great deal easier to be skeptical of MMGW than it might be to a Frenchman who has only once in his lifetime (and perhaps his parents’ lifetimes) experienced the kind of heat people have in Texas every year without fail, and fully expect.
Interesting, Ridgerunner.

Seattle is on a latitude that is way north of even the northern tip of Hokkaido. They have ice festivals every year in southern Hokkaido Japan. In Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk (similar latitude as Seattle) they have sub-zero temperature in winter on the average. In Seattle we struggle to get snow every year and get the “pineapple express” from the southern pacific which can cause temperatures in the 60’s in January. Then, we can get an “arctic blast” from Canada which plunges temperatures into the teens for a while.

Ishii
 
Oh, I was convinced the scientist lied. Your reference was very compelling to that point. But as Hans pointed out, that same article showed how scientists themselves were the ones who eventually detected and corrected the error. So I still contend that on scientific questions, you are more likely to be in the right if you go with what scientists are saying than any other choice I can think of.
There are varying foundations of disbelief. What about the guy whose falsification took 48 years to detect?

The point of the second article (I think it was the second 🤷) was that errors tend to stick around unless the nature of them is such that they invite challenge. In the case of the Japanese lady, the issue was “cutting edge”; that is, fabrication of pluripotent stem cells. With the “eternal chicken heart” guy, apparently it wasn’t that interesting to scientists, as vulnerable as it otherwise was to challenge. Who really cared if one could or couldn’t keep chicken heart cells alive indefinitely in a petri dish?

In the case of MMGW, of course, there are challengers; lots of them. But they don’t have anywhere near the political backing that MMGW promotion has, and MMGW cannot be reproduced or falsified in the same way the pluripotent cells thing can be. MMGW is like a roadway sign post in “Alice in Wonderland”, with arrows pointing in every direction.

So, it just grinds on and on, like stock market prognostication, as I have previously mentioned.
 
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