Fun question about the Fall of Adam and dinosaurs

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I have to disagree that people shouldn’t ponder things like this anymore. It’s what God created us to do, isn’t it? He loves it when we wonder about His creation.
Ill concede this point, and I guess “not even think about it anymore” was the wrong choice of words. My point was that there comes a certain point in history that, like the notion of a flat earth, it must be “pushed aside” (sorry cant think of a better way to put it) so we can move on. I too dont follow blindly, but YEC’s are making a scientific claim, and its just no panning out for them.
 
Ill concede this point, and I guess “not even think about it anymore” was the wrong choice of words. My point was that there comes a certain point in history that, like the notion of a flat earth, it must be “pushed aside” (sorry cant think of a better way to put it) so we can move on. I too dont follow blindly, but YEC’s are making a scientific claim, and its just no panning out for them.
I hear ya. :tiphat:
 
Why couldn’t God have created humans in the midst of “time”. :hmmm: Like when you have a generic greeting card and write in your own message, or when writing a program starting with a pre-existing code. Whatever God willed.
Joeganshert,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

While God certainly could have created humans in the midst of time–and I must confess that I am confused by what you mean by this term–the question at hand is, how do we square what He has revealed to us through the Church with what we see has apparently happened. It’s not a question of could, it’s a question of did.
  • Liberian
 
<< All he comes back with is that “If all thats true then the bible is false, and there was death before the fall”. Then he proceeds to try to lump me in with mormons…yawn. anyone have any advice on dealing with people like this? >>

Yeah, ask him what would happen if Adam or Eve took a sledgehammer and pounded a cockroach against a rock before the Fall? Who would win? The immovable rock, or the irresistible cockroach? :confused:

Glenn Morton takes about cell death before the Fall as well. Answers In Genesis gets out of this by saying “cell death” and “plant death” is not really death. And the dinos ate plants of course before the Fall.

Phil P
 
Hello Desertbrother,

God exists outside of physical time which He created. God looks at the whole of physical time, from creation to the end of time in the physical world, as a human looks at a three inch piece of yarn.

Thousands, or tens of thousands, of years ago there was nothing. No matter, no energy, no empty space, nothing. From God’s central focus point of free from the will of God, love for God capable, man, God created a physical universe with an infinte physical time past and an infinite physical time future, as a home for, love for God capable, man.

God exists outside of physical time. The past of physcial time must bend to the command of God. No doubt both past and future physical universe were altered after the fall of man, thousands, or tens of thousands, of years ago.

Please visit: Creation
 
And the dinos ate plants of course before the Fall.
And those serrated teeth were for grinding up plant material …

And those tooth marks on the dinosaur bones were caused by …

And–if there was no animal death before the Fall–those dinosaur fossils were formed by …
  • Liberian
 
God put the rainbow in the sky after Noah landed the ark. I do not think that scientists, looking back in time, will find a time before rainbows existed.

After the fall, snakes no longer had legs. I do not think that Archeologists have found fossils of snakes with legs.

God exists outside of physical time which He created. God looks at the whole of physical time as a human looks at a three inch piece of yarn. God is all powerful. God could choose to only change the physical world from one point forward or God could change the physical world from one point forward and also from that point into the infinite past. From what we see it seems the second, God changes the physical world future and past, is the way that God works.

God set out to destroy both Sodom and Nineveh with what seems to be meteorites. Meteorites did destroy Sodom but, due to their repentance, meteorites did not destroy Nineveh. Did the meteorites just appear out of nowhere to destroy Sodom? Were meteorites headed toward Nineveh for tens of thousands of years and then just disappear? My guess is that God controls both past and future physical events in accordance to the response, repentance or non-repentance, of the people at that present point in physical time.

Scientists will never find the way the physical world existed before God altered the physical world because God is so powerful, existing outside of physical time, that the whole of physical time, infinite past and infinite future, has been altered to the new physical world conditions. The only way to see how the world existed before the fall of man is through the eyes of faith in God’s word.

This might be the way it is or this might not be the way that it is. However, we know that we cannot put limits on the power of God. We cannot say that God is not powerful enough to alter the conditions of the way the physical world existed into the infinite past when God alters the physcial world in His interactions with the choices of free-willed man in the present. In other words, to think that God lives day to day in the present only is to severly limit God to man’s own physical condition. Some will do this to “prove” science over religion but they are just blinding themselves to the imense uncontained power of God, to push their scientific knowledge “superiority” over faithful believers of God’s word. Our spiritual Omni-Powerful God does not exist in the physical world box that God created to house man.

Never underestimate the Power of God!
 
God set out to destroy both Sodom and Nineveh with what seems to be meteorites. Meteorites did destroy Sodom but, due to their repentance, meteorites did not destroy Nineveh. Did the meteorites just appear out of nowhere to destroy Sodom? Were meteorites headed toward Nineveh for tens of thousands of years and then just disappear? My guess is that God controls both past and future physical events in accordance to the response, repentance or non-repentance, of the people at that present point in physical time.
Prepare for something really mind-blowing …

paradigmpuzzles.com/

… an experiment first suggested by John Archibald Wheeler in the early 1980’s has been carried out and shows that decisions we make now affect what appears to have happened a long time ago. The link is to a game called “Quantum Tic-Tac-Toe” which illustrates this effect: your move on turn 4 affects how you moved on turn 2 and how your opponent moved on turns 1 and 3.

So the idea that God works backwards in time isn’t at all far-fetched.
  • Liberian
 
Prepare for something really mind-blowing …

paradigmpuzzles.com/

… an experiment first suggested by John Archibald Wheeler in the early 1980’s has been carried out and shows that decisions we make now affect what appears to have happened a long time ago. The link is to a game called “Quantum Tic-Tac-Toe” which illustrates this effect: your move on turn 4 affects how you moved on turn 2 and how your opponent moved on turns 1 and 3.

So the idea that God works backwards in time isn’t at all far-fetched.
  • Liberian
Interesting.
 
Hello All,

Here is another senerio that I wanted to point out on multiple time lines that science will not have the ability to see.

I remember reading a story from a Mary aparitionist. In the spirit of Christmass, it is a story similiar to Scruge. The aparistionist said that Mary showed them a vision of the future where horrific things were happening on earth due to mankind’s disobedience to God. Similiar to Scruge, the apparitionist asked Mary if this future was absolutely the way that the future would be, or, if mankind repents, can such horors be avoided. Mary answered that yes, if mankind turns back to God, there can be a different future.

Whether or not you believe in Mary aparitionists or not, the big question is, are multiple time lines something God is capable or incapable of? Are two or more very different futures for the same period in time a possibility for our all Powerful God? Are two or more very different pasts for the same period in time a possibility for our all Powerful God? Many believe in multiple time lines for the same period in time when they see it on Star Trek or Back to the Future. If anyone could allow multiple time lines, it would be God. Can God allow multiple time lines for the same period in physical time?

We know that God sees the whole of physical time, otherwise scriptures would not have prophecies of the coming of Jesus and other prophetic teachings. Why would God send Mary, or the prophets, to warn mankind to turn back to Him, if God did not believe that what He saw in His full view of man’s actions for all of physical time, could not be altered to a different, better, time line, for the same period in physical time?

What do you think?
 
What do you think?
Well, I believe/think that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets:

And here is something He said:

"Say to them, “As I live!” Declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live.” - Ezekiel 33:11

And here is a great mystery from Jesus’ teaching that I believe must be considered:

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occured in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgement for you." - Matthew 11:21,22

That’s a mighty big “IF” there, isn’t it??
 
Well, I believe/think that the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets:

And here is something He said:

"Say to them, “As I live!” Declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live.” - Ezekiel 33:11

And here is a great mystery from Jesus’ teaching that I believe must be considered:

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occured in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgement for you." - Matthew 11:21,22

That’s a mighty big “IF” there, isn’t it??
Hello Reformed Rob,

I am totally lost as to what your point is. I do not understand how the scripture you are quoting relates to multiple time lines for the same period in physical time. Could you please spell out what you are saying.

Thanks.
 
Hello Reformed Rob,

I am totally lost as to what your point is. I do not understand how the scripture you are quoting relates to multiple time lines for the same period in physical time. Could you please spell out what you are saying.
Steven,

I apologize, maybe I misunderstood what you were asking or saying in the post I was responding to. My point was that there is some way in which we can respond to God’s warnings and graces to change our lives and therefore to change the future. Or at least, alter it from what it would have been had we not heeded God’s warnings.

So I was getting at first and second causes. Such as Jesus saying “IF” He had done certain miracles in different cities, they would have repented. But He didn’t do the miracles there, so they didn’t repent. He did miracles where people didn’t repent. But didn’t He know that before hand??

I don’t know about multiple time lines and I guess I don’t really understand what you are discussing.
 
Steven,

I don’t know about multiple time lines and I guess I don’t really understand what you are discussing.
Hello Reformed Rob,

The question is, is God powerful enough to alter the past to a different past? God exists outside of physical time. God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time. God can look at the whole of physical time, from creation to the end of time, as a human looks at a three inch piece of yarn. Can God incert Mary aparitions and prophets into a certian point in time to alter future events? Does this cause two different time lines for the same period in physical time? If so, then there could be two very different time lines to our physical past. One, pre-fall of man, where animals did not kill and eat each other and one, post-fall of man, where animals do kill and eat each other.

It is doubtful that science, existing in one timeline of infinite past, would be able to see the previous timeline of infinite past after God altered it. That is not to say that it did not exist understanding the unlimited power of God.

In the future, God tells us that the lamb will lay down with the lion, does science see this coming?

What do you think?
 
Hello all,

Would we have a very different timeline, Old Testament era and New Testament era, had Jesus not been crucified?

Past scriptures prophesizing His death did not detter Jesus from praying to the Father asking Him to reconsider His crucifixion. Future Catholics celibrating mass for mileniums did not detter Jesus from praying to the Father asking Him to reconsider His crucifixion. It seems Jesus does not see the past, or future, of our present time line as nessessarily locking Him in to His crucifixion. I cannot see how we would not experience a very different timeline, past and future, from the life time of Jesus, had the Father “taken Christ’s cup from Him” as Jesus prayed of in the Mount of Olives garden.

Jesus does not seem to see this timeline mankind lives in as the only timeline possible.

NAB LUK 22:42

"Father, if it is your will, take this cup from me; yet not my will but yours be done."What do you think?
 
I’m pretty sure the Church teaches that all of Creation (including the entire Universe) was in a state of incorruption, and that the Fall caused it to be subject to death and suffering.
No. The Fall of Man only punished Man. The rest of Material Creation is in the state it always was in (except lowered in it’s dignity because it’s End, namely Man, has been lowered)

Animals have mortal souls, and they always did, and this made them mortal always. Nothing wrong with that.

Aquinas himself says in his Summa:
“*In the opinion of some, those animals which now are fierce and kill others, would, in that state, have been tame, not only in regard to man, but also in regard to other animals. *But this is quite unreasonable. For the nature of animals was not changed by man’s sin, as if those whose nature now it is to devour the flesh of others, would then have lived on herbs, as the lion and falcon. Nor does Bede’s gloss on Gn. 1:30, say that trees and herbs were given as food to all animals and birds, but to some. Thus there would have been a natural antipathy between some animals. They would not, however, on this account have been excepted from the mastership of man: as neither at present are they for that reason excepted from the mastership of God, Whose Providence has ordained all this. Of this Providence man would have been the executor, as appears even now in regard to domestic animals, since fowls are given by men as food to the trained falcon.”
There is no need for mystical sounding, but utterly illogical, theories of God changing the past based on Man’s sin “radiating backwards due to its cosmic implications” or any nonsense like that.

Animals die. They were always meant to. Get over it. Theologians of the past would have been offended by such complex and convoluted new theories, utterly foreign to the Catholic mindset.
 
Hello Reformed Rob,

The question is, is God powerful enough to alter the past to a different past?

It is doubtful that science, existing in one timeline of infinite past, would be able to see the previous timeline of infinite past after God altered it.
What do you think?
I’m not promoting this idea, but let’s just say that the movie Jet Li starred in called “The One” was not based on some concept that a sci-fi script writer conjured up. It’s based on a theory of alternate universes. “Multi-verses” where perhaps every single choice that every person could have made exists in as much reality as the one we live in now. This is based partly upon quantum physics and problems in how atoms behave that we don’t fully understand so physicists postulate and have different theories.

But think of it like this…Imagine a game of chess you are playing with a friend. You are white. You have 20 choices of what you can do for your first move. Your friend has 20 choices for what he can do for his first move. You each make your first move and that is the reality you know. Now picture there being a different reality based upon what you could have done. And a different reality branching off of each possible move…all the way to the end of the game.

Thousands of realities won’t begin to touch how many alternatate realities there would be. Wow, chess can really be used to explain just about anything!!!

I agree with you…**IF God did alter something in the past…would we ever know that it was altered?? ** I don’t think so and therefore it seems to not be fruitful to wonder too much about it.
 
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