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Hereiam
Guest
Was it a providential act or tragedy (providential meaning purposely planned by God; tragic meaning God did not will it, but allowed it).
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
If the existence of the allegory in writing is part of God’s providence why then wouldn’t the happenings in the allegory itself also be part of God’s providence?
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Gorgias
Guest
Oh happy fault, that earned so great, so glorious a Redeemer!
I think I’d answer that it wasn’t “purposely planned by God”, since that would be in conflict with how we understand God. He doesn’t sin or do evil. However, he allows us to use the gift of free will without constraining our actions.
On the other hand, it’s not a “tragedy”, either, since – as the Exsultet proclaims – it was the means by which we became redeemed through Christ!
So… not purposely planned by God; and not tragedy – but allowed nevertheless!
After all, “we know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.”
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Hereiam
Guest
Nice, well articulated thoughts.
Just to keep it going:
Or was it?
If we subcribe to the thoughts of the great Franciscan mind, Duns Scotus, the incarnation was a certainty even had there been no fall.
Many find that unthinkable…so if the incarnation was providential, was the fall also, to accomodate the incarnation?
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somecanadian
Guest
In my head I have this image of God. And He sees all and He knows all. He knows every path and every choice we will make even if He isn’t actively forcing us to make those choices. Now, this God, knowing all and seeing all, chose to place Adam and Eve in the Garden knowing that they would choose sin but He did this because He could see where it would lead.
Could there have been other outcomes? Yes. Would it have resulted better or worse? We don’t know but He does.
I’m not 100% sure if this view of God is 100% in line with Catholic theology but in my head it’s how I make sense of tragedy and sin and just life in general.
God allowed this because He knew the outcome would eventually lead to greatness.
I come from an abusive home. And for a long time I struggled with the question of: Why would God allow these terrible things to happen to innocent children?
And eventually I realized it’s less a question of Him ignoring our suffering and more a case of Him granting us complete and total free will. KNOWING my parents would abuse us, He still granted us life through those parents knowing how our lives would eventually end and knowing that despite all that pain we had great and wonderful things that would also come.
In the same way, despite knowing they would fail, He knew the end of the story and how great and wonderful it would be… so He put that first piece on the game board of life, then set other pieces to gently persuade us where we needed to be persuaded… then sat back to watch as we freely made whatever decisions we were going to make.
DISCLAIMER: This is just MY understanding. Please don’t think I’m saying this is Catholic teaching. It’s just how my brain has always answered the question of suffering, sin and pain.
Could there have been other outcomes? Yes. Would it have resulted better or worse? We don’t know but He does.
I’m not 100% sure if this view of God is 100% in line with Catholic theology but in my head it’s how I make sense of tragedy and sin and just life in general.
God allowed this because He knew the outcome would eventually lead to greatness.
I come from an abusive home. And for a long time I struggled with the question of: Why would God allow these terrible things to happen to innocent children?
And eventually I realized it’s less a question of Him ignoring our suffering and more a case of Him granting us complete and total free will. KNOWING my parents would abuse us, He still granted us life through those parents knowing how our lives would eventually end and knowing that despite all that pain we had great and wonderful things that would also come.
In the same way, despite knowing they would fail, He knew the end of the story and how great and wonderful it would be… so He put that first piece on the game board of life, then set other pieces to gently persuade us where we needed to be persuaded… then sat back to watch as we freely made whatever decisions we were going to make.
DISCLAIMER: This is just MY understanding. Please don’t think I’m saying this is Catholic teaching. It’s just how my brain has always answered the question of suffering, sin and pain.
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Gorgias
Guest
Yes! It is!Well, let’s nuance that, just a little bit. God didn’t “facilitate evil so that good would result”, per se. That would be immoral. Rather, God – knowing that He wished us to have free will, and knowing we wouldn’t always choose the good – still did the Good and will make all things work for the Good (even if we’re not acting for the good)!
Subtle difference, right?
Hold on, though: “the incarnation was a certainty” isn’t the same thing as “God planned the fall”!
No. God saves. He would have saved us from our sin, even if the event that we call “the Fall of Adam and Eve” didn’t occur. (Of course, that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t have been “the Fall of Cain”, or some other transgression, right? And if so, God still would have saved us, even if it weren’t Adam & Eve who had sinned!)
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somecanadian
Guest
So subtle I didn’t see it initially. Haha. Thanks for weighing in. I think that’s what I believe, I just wasn’t stating it very clearly. Because in my head that’s definitely how it all lines up: “Knew we wouldn’t always choose the good but still did the Good and will make all things work for the Good” makes total sense to me.
In my head as time is no deterrent for Him, He looked at all that was and that would be and placed us at the start (Adam and Eve), placed Christ in the center (His time on Earth) and gave us all that He could so that despite our bad choices, we would have every opportunity to find our way to Him. We still have to make the choice, we still have to actively will to be with Him, but at the same time He does everything He can to give us the tools we need to get to that point. Kind of like a suitor who brings flowers and love letters and introduces you to His family because He wants you so much to love Him as He loves you but who you can still reject despite those interventions.
And I feel like I might not be explaining well! It all fits in my head. Haha.
In my head as time is no deterrent for Him, He looked at all that was and that would be and placed us at the start (Adam and Eve), placed Christ in the center (His time on Earth) and gave us all that He could so that despite our bad choices, we would have every opportunity to find our way to Him. We still have to make the choice, we still have to actively will to be with Him, but at the same time He does everything He can to give us the tools we need to get to that point. Kind of like a suitor who brings flowers and love letters and introduces you to His family because He wants you so much to love Him as He loves you but who you can still reject despite those interventions.
And I feel like I might not be explaining well! It all fits in my head. Haha.
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Hereiam
Guest
Thats the theological conundrum…it seems to, but does it, or can it is what I’m hoping to have a dialogue on.
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Hereiam
Guest
Correct, but Scotus didnt leave that as a possibility…so for the sake of discussion that man would have never entered into sin…then what?
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Gorgias
Guest
Agreed. Scotus, however, made a subtle observation: if there were no sin in the world, Christ’s incarnation would still have occurred – not in order to save us from sin, but to fully unite us to God.Gorgias:
Correct, but Scotus didnt leave that as a possibility…so for the sake of discussion that man would have never entered into sin…then what?
So, your question about whether the Fall happens because the Incarnation must happen is not at all what Scotus had in mind. Therefore, yet again, we have to answer you, “no – the Fall doesn’t happen in order to facilitate Christ’s Incarnation.”
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Seagull
Guest
One thing that strikes me -
Well, let me first say, Jesus said,
“ whoever offends one of these little ones…
it’d be better for him to have a heavy stone -
tied around his neck - and then thrown into the sea.
With that said - the fall -
Jesus said -
he beheld - evil no good lying Satan
Like lightning -
Thrown out of Heaven - like the evil trash he is !
Like lightning.
God was sick of his @#$&*
Instant judgement.
Well, let me first say, Jesus said,
“ whoever offends one of these little ones…
it’d be better for him to have a heavy stone -
tied around his neck - and then thrown into the sea.
With that said - the fall -
Jesus said -
he beheld - evil no good lying Satan
Like lightning -
Thrown out of Heaven - like the evil trash he is !
Like lightning.
God was sick of his @#$&*
Instant judgement.
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fhansen
Guest
It was a case of God making lemonade out of the lemons that He foreknew Adam and Eve would choose to become. So it’s kind of both/and rather than either/or. Somehow. Probably doesn’t help much. 
But either way God is never the direct author or cause of evil.
I think the bottom-line lesson in any case, the lesson we’re all here to learn, is that ‘Apart from Me you can do nothing’. John 15:5. Apart from God we have no life, no existence worth living eternally, no full, complete happiness or satisfaction. Adam chose to be “apart” from God by essentially making himself equal with God, severing the Creator-created relationship of man being in loving subjugation to Him, a communion that man was made for. Man must consciously choose God; he cannot remain in some kind of neutral state of indecision but rather must move closer towards the Good rather than away from it. Perhaps moving closer to it would’ve been signified by eating from the Tree of Life.
But either way, man’s justice and perfection isn’t complete until he comes to love God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. And this comes as we draw nearer to God, which occurs as we come to know Him. So Jesus came to reveal God; He initiates this knowledge, introducing this light into a world that had become very dark with its immersion in sin, exposing man to another knowledge, the knowledge of evil that had been possessed, had been experienced, by man ever since the Fall. By contrast man would also be able to identify and possess another knowledge, the knowledge of good, so that ultimately with the help of God’s revelation he may come to choose and run to the good alone, eschewing evil as he’s finally become jaded by it, ultimately binding himself to the highest Good, God, Himself. In this way evil plays a good role, in helping to bring man to hate it, to hate being autonomous from God to sum it up succinctly.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
This all relates, it seems, to God having made His world “en statu viae”, in a state of journeying to perfection as the Church teaches. Man’s will is the prize so to speak, never uninvolved in this process. And either way God deemed the whole endeavor worth it, knowing the beginning from the end.
But either way God is never the direct author or cause of evil.I think the bottom-line lesson in any case, the lesson we’re all here to learn, is that ‘Apart from Me you can do nothing’. John 15:5. Apart from God we have no life, no existence worth living eternally, no full, complete happiness or satisfaction. Adam chose to be “apart” from God by essentially making himself equal with God, severing the Creator-created relationship of man being in loving subjugation to Him, a communion that man was made for. Man must consciously choose God; he cannot remain in some kind of neutral state of indecision but rather must move closer towards the Good rather than away from it. Perhaps moving closer to it would’ve been signified by eating from the Tree of Life.
But either way, man’s justice and perfection isn’t complete until he comes to love God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. And this comes as we draw nearer to God, which occurs as we come to know Him. So Jesus came to reveal God; He initiates this knowledge, introducing this light into a world that had become very dark with its immersion in sin, exposing man to another knowledge, the knowledge of evil that had been possessed, had been experienced, by man ever since the Fall. By contrast man would also be able to identify and possess another knowledge, the knowledge of good, so that ultimately with the help of God’s revelation he may come to choose and run to the good alone, eschewing evil as he’s finally become jaded by it, ultimately binding himself to the highest Good, God, Himself. In this way evil plays a good role, in helping to bring man to hate it, to hate being autonomous from God to sum it up succinctly.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
This all relates, it seems, to God having made His world “en statu viae”, in a state of journeying to perfection as the Church teaches. Man’s will is the prize so to speak, never uninvolved in this process. And either way God deemed the whole endeavor worth it, knowing the beginning from the end.
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Elf01
Guest
I disagree there. It is immoral for a human, but I’m inclined to think that it is because humans are not omniscient. God is and knows every consequence of every possible choice. We do not.
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PrisonerOfChrist
Guest
I have to agree with Gorgias and his careful choice of words that may have been missed.Gorgias:
I disagree there. It is immoral for a human, but I’m inclined to think that it is because humans are not omniscient. God is and knows every consequence of every possible choice. We do not.
There’s a difference between God facilitating and allowing evil. God cannot facilitate evil because it would render Him an accessory to evil which would be against his nature to do so. Just like God couldn’t lie because it would be against his nature to do so. He allows evil but does not facilitate evil.
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Latin
Guest
I believe, God is the one who created the condition of the “fall” and the one way street to the “fall” and God preordained the “fall” from all eternity for the benefit of the entire human race.
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Latin
Guest
I wouldn’t say our free wills are God’s gamble, because our supernatural decisions and our salutary acts are the products of God’s efficacious graces, which moves our wills to freely decide and to freely perform the good that God wills for us.
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If God wills to permit us to resist His grace, He grants us a sufficient grace, and not an efficacious grace.
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In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good, the Council of Orange says, “God does many good things in man.” Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, the same council says, “No one has anything of his own except lying and sin.
But if man has any truth and justice, it is from that fountain for which we ought to thirst in the desert. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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If God wills to permit us to resist His grace, He grants us a sufficient grace, and not an efficacious grace.
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In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good, the Council of Orange says, “God does many good things in man.” Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.
In canon 22, the same council says, “No one has anything of his own except lying and sin.
But if man has any truth and justice, it is from that fountain for which we ought to thirst in the desert. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.
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The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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Gorgias
Guest
‘Knowledge’ – and therefore, omniscence – isn’t what’s in play here. ‘Good and evil’ is. God is good itself. God is not the author of evil. Therefore, God allows but does not share in the cause of evil.
(And yes, @PrisonerOfChrist, I was trying to choose my words carefully!
)I don’t mean gamble in the general sense of the word. Because God obviously knew the future.
But he could have created creatures that would never rebel. That tells us that He desired us to freely choose Him over the alternative.
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Latin
Guest
Thank you AdamP88 for your post.
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You said AdamP88:
God could have created us that we would never rebel/ (we would never commit even one act of sin). – This is a very important theological fact.
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I believe, the main reason of Adam’s and Eve’s “fall” is to take the human race into this corrupt state that we are in from our birth. – As God has given Adam and Eve sufficient graces instead of efficacious graces, which graces would infallible protected from the “fall,” their “fall” was sure and happened for the benefit of the entire human race.
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THE BENEFITS OF THE “FALL”:
Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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If God would choose, He could create us instant saints, instantly fit to heaven.
His wisdom He so makes us saints through our experience and through our sufferings.
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Probably the other reason God didn’t make us instant saints:
If someone never experienced pains and sufferings, cannot experience joy and happiness.
Through our sufferings, God makes it sure that in heaven, we will have the most joyful and happy life.
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By the way, with God’s gift of efficacious graces we all freely choose Him over the alternative, no exception.
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(Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3). God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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You said AdamP88:
God could have created us that we would never rebel/ (we would never commit even one act of sin). – This is a very important theological fact.
.
I believe, the main reason of Adam’s and Eve’s “fall” is to take the human race into this corrupt state that we are in from our birth. – As God has given Adam and Eve sufficient graces instead of efficacious graces, which graces would infallible protected from the “fall,” their “fall” was sure and happened for the benefit of the entire human race.
.
THE BENEFITS OF THE “FALL”:
Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
.
Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
.
If God would choose, He could create us instant saints, instantly fit to heaven.
His wisdom He so makes us saints through our experience and through our sufferings.
.
Probably the other reason God didn’t make us instant saints:
If someone never experienced pains and sufferings, cannot experience joy and happiness.
Through our sufferings, God makes it sure that in heaven, we will have the most joyful and happy life.
.
By the way, with God’s gift of efficacious graces we all freely choose Him over the alternative, no exception.
.
(Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3). God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "
.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.
CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
.
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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