Fundamental Independent Baptist Allegation:

[BoondockRev]

Where do the doctrines of the papacy come from? How about confession? Or that blessed Mary is sinless? We all have sinned, there is not one among us who hasn’t. Mary even acknowledged Jesus as Lord, not her son, Jesus is above Mary just like He’s above everyone else. Going further I say Ephesians 2:8-10, you say James 2:17. A scripture reading spitting contest is all its going to turn out to be. The point of the matter is, its folly to say either works or faith alone will get you into the Kingdom of Heaven. Faith IN Jesus Christ is what brings about those works, thos works will be brought to our attention through His Holy Spirit, so not even the works we do are our own. It is possible however to ignore the Holy Spirit, which results in guys like Hitler, Tomas de Torquemada, Oliver Cromwell, all proclaimed Christian or Catholics but they murdered thousands of people like they were ordering a pizza. If they didn’t repent, didn’t listen to the Holy Spirit whispering, “Stop this madness, don’t you know what Jesus did for you on the cross?” then I know there’s a special place in hell for these guys.
Therefore the reason beefs arise between the faith/works theories is that “separated brethren” like myself know that only after we accept Christ are we made right in God’s sight and then He begins to work in us with the Holy Spirit to do good works. We are vessels for His hand, and even the good works that are suppossed to get us into Heaven are not our own. The change Christ makes in your heart is only one that you can see, and if you don’t see it you are in danger of not being one working for God. Do you see these fruit:
love, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. (Gal 5:23)

If not, the Holy Spirit is not controlling your life, and therefore you are not fully submitting to God’s will being done on earth as it is in Heaven. So there are no amount of works that will get you into Heaven without faith, one drop of faith in saying this sentence,“Jesus live in me” WILL get you in. Now on the fact that doing evil can make you fall from the grace of God?.. well that’s for Him to decide

May all your days be fruitful and in service of the Lord, a wish from a friend…and brother
Chris

 

[fredrock]

Deus Solus:

Excellent answers all…I think you *must *incorporate James 2:24 (or all of James 2 for that matter) into your position and ask them to answer how the only time the phrase “by faith alone” appears in Scripture it is prefaced by a NOT! The NAB reads “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

The Fundamental Independent Baptist position is that justification (imputation of righteousness as opposed to the infusion of righteousness consistent with the Catholic position) occurs the instant of the sinners prayer, and that the rest of the believer’s life is devoted to sanctification, or to put it more simply, “becoming Christlike”.

Notice how in James 2:22, Abraham’s faith is “completed by the works”. It is a hard passage for the amateur fundamentalist apologist to deal with, and most likely to be shrugged off with a inadequate excuse. A good exegesis of James 2 is invaluable to a Catholic/Orthodox apologist.

Hi, I am not a Fundamental Independent Baptist, but your view that what James is discussing in chapter 2 regarding justificatin is against what Paul says regarding the same topic shows a lack of decernmant on your part.

Paul is addressing an entirely different audience who make no claim to the Christian faith. Their righteousness was in their works. Paul refuted this, (see Romans, Galations)

James is addressing believers, see the beginning of the letter, this point is crucial if you want to understand his message.

A good exegesis of James 2 is invaluable to a Catholic/Orthodox apologist.

If you really believe this then I prayerfully ask you to consider that James is speaking to** PROFESSED** believers. Look at James 2:14 "What does it profit, brethern, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can faith save him?

With that in view, follow the arguement that James has, and you will see that he does not contradict Paul in the least. In fact, James and Paul stand back to back fighting on the one hand the self righteous and proud, and on the other the self deceived and professers of a loveless faith in Christ.

The just have always lived by faith. Faith alone in Christ alone.

In His Service,
Fredrock

 

[Genesis315]

Paul is addressing an entirely different audience who make no claim to the Christian faith. Their righteousness was in their works. Paul refuted this, (see Romans, Galations)

Right, they needed faith also.

James is addressing believers, see the beginning of the letter, this point is crucial if you want to understand his message.

Right, they already had faith. They needed works also.

 

[Lorarose]

The baptist position is unscriptural…

members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/bibletruth.html

 

[Deus_Solus]

fredrock,

fredrock:

Hi, I am not a Fundamental Independent Baptist, but your view that what James is discussing in chapter 2 regarding justificatin is against what Paul says regarding the same topic shows a lack of decernmant (sic) on your part.

I’m sorry but you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I don’t view Paul and James in opposition. I believe the Bible is to be understood as a cohesive whole and that some people champion “faith alone” without taking James into consideration. That being said, I do not believe that “works” merit salvation in any way. It is only through Christ’s death on the cross and my focus on Him that allows what I do to be pleasing to him. I live no longer under the “system of the law” (the Old Covenant), but under the “system of grace” (New Covenant).

fredrock:

Paul is addressing an entirely different audience who make no claim to the Christian faith. Their righteousness was in their works. Paul refuted this, (see Romans, Galations (sic))

No, Paul was writing to the churches at Rome and Galatia (cf. Romans 1:7, Galatians 1:1). Read any church history or bible commentary you want, they will validate that Paul was addressing Christians in these letters.

fredrock:

If you really believe this then I prayerfully ask you to consider that James is speaking to** PROFESSED** believers. Look at James 2:14 "What does it profit, brethern, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can faith save him?

With that in view, follow the arguement that James has, and you will see that he does not contradict Paul in the least. In fact, James and Paul stand back to back fighting on the one hand the self righteous and proud, and on the other the self deceived and professers of a loveless faith in Christ

Again, I am speaking of a holistic view of Scripture, not one that blows certain aspects of Pauline epistles out of proportion. You are correct that James is writing to professed believers, and reminding them of the immense importance that works play in their continued salvation. Consider the Greek dikaioo (justification/justified) that is used in the James 2 passage; it is used in the same lexical sense by Paul in his soteriological discussions in other epistles.

Hope this clears up the confusion.

God Bless.

 

[fredrock]

Hi,

You said, No, Paul was writing to the churches at Rome and Galatia (cf. Romans 1:7, Galatians 1:1). Read any church history or bible commentary you want, they will validate that Paul was addressing Christians in these letters.

Yes Paul is writing to the saints,( I apologize for not being clearer) my point is that when Paul takes up the topic of justification his aim is those who seek to be justfied by keeping the law, going back into the old thinking.

James, in effect is speaking to those who profess to have grasped that truth.

In His Service,
Fredrock
**

**

 

[fredrock]

Hi,

In response to** Gen. 3:15 saying "**Right, they already had faith. They needed works also."

I think the whole point of what James is saying is that you have no faith if there is no good works.

So, I cannot agree with you in the sense that they had a faith they just needed works.

Its a fine point I know, but for me it is an extremely important point.

In His Service,
Fredrock

 

[Genesis315]

fredrock:

Hi,

In response to** Gen. 3:15 saying "**Right, they already had faith. They needed works also."

I think the whole point of what James is saying is that you have no faith if there is no good works.

So, I cannot agree with you in the sense that they had a faith they just needed works.

Its a fine point I know, but for me it is an extremely important point.

In His Service,
Fredrock

But you yourself said James was talking to believers .

 

[fredrock]

Hi,

Professed believers; A profession of faith is meaningless is his point.

If you must get the last word in I conceed.

In His Service,
Fredrock

 

[Genesis315]

fredrock:

If you must get the last word in I conceed.

WOOHOO!:dancing:

Just kidding. I really was confused. There seemed to be a discrepancy in what you said. I apologize if I offended.

 

[BoondockRev]

Genesis315:

But you yourself said James was talking to believers .

yes James was speaking to believers (in Christ) that still wished to keep the laws. James wanted to reiterate to those Christians that it is not by the law that you will be going to Heaven, but by faith. Scriptures like Ephesians 2:7-8 and James 2:17 were put in to weed out Christians that do profess faith in Christ, but then go home from church on Sundays and do stuff that God doesn’t exactly approve of. Again it is folly to say “works will get you into Heaven” (for you’ll come to believe that’s the only thing that will get you there) because only because of your faith will you do good works. Also ponder this, when we have faith in Christ, we recieve His spirit (Holy Spirit) and it produces love, kindness, etc. Isn’t it those attitudes that cause us to do good works? So are the good works we do aren’t even ours, but Christ working through us? Therefore doesn’t all the glory belong to Christ coming into us and doing good works through us? Even further, does any credit for the good works that get us into Heaven…belong to us?

I wish you all many fruitful days and walks in His ways,
Chris

 

[Thal59]

There are over 20 different Baptist denominations in the U.S. alone; Southern Baptist, Ana-Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Fundamental Baptist, Independent Baptist, etc. While there are a number of beliefs these denominations share, there are many others that they disagree with.

Perhaps before the Fundamental Independent Baptist church lays allegations against the Catholic Church, they should first spend some time figuring out what they believe.

Thal59

 

[Church_Militant]

BoondockRev:

yes James was speaking to believers (in Christ) that still wished to keep the laws. James wanted to reiterate to those Christians that it is not by the law that you will be going to Heaven, but by faith. Scriptures like Ephesians 2:7-8 and James 2:17 were put in to weed out Christians that do profess faith in Christ, but then go home from church on Sundays and do stuff that God doesn’t exactly approve of. Again it is folly to say “works will get you into Heaven” (for you’ll come to believe that’s the only thing that will get you there) because only because of your faith will you do good works. Also ponder this, when we have faith in Christ, we recieve His spirit (Holy Spirit) and it produces love, kindness, etc. Isn’t it those attitudes that cause us to do good works? So are the good works we do aren’t even ours, but Christ working through us? Therefore doesn’t all the glory belong to Christ coming into us and doing good works through us? Even further, does any credit for the good works that get us into Heaven…belong to us?

I wish you all many fruitful days and walks in His ways,
Chris

Well Chris, if you find a Catholic who tells you that that’s what we believe then you send him on over here to the CA forums and we’ll happily explain it to him.

However, It is wrong to tell people that God takes no notice of our good works and that they are without any meerit before Him. The Bible certainly doesn’t support that concept. (Matthew 25:31-46 , John 14 :15 , John 14:23 , John 15 :10 Just for instance). I believe that God takes note and that He offers still more graces as we do our best.

The ECF seem to concur wth this: catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Gracie2004]

Mike,

Add to your list all of the Churches in Revelations, since they were specifically judged on their works, not their faith…

Gracie

 

[Church_Militant]

Gracie2004:

Mike,

Add to your list all of the Churches in Revelations, since they were specifically judged on their works, not their faith…

Gracie

Whoa! I hadn’t thought of that! Boy am I a bonehead…

 

[Kevan]

Thal59:

There are over 20 different Baptist denominations in the U.S. alone; Southern Baptist, Ana-Baptist, Primitive Baptist, Reformed Baptist, Fundamental Baptist, Independent Baptist, etc. While there are a number of beliefs these denominations share, there are many others that they disagree with.

Your list is fairly comprehensive.

Note that you have here Augustinians and nonaugustinians (i.e. Calvinists/predestinarians). You have that variety in Catholicism, too.

You have pacifists and nonpacifists in the list; ditto the RCC.

You have groups that practice foot-washing and those who do not. Is Catholicism any different?

Most all of the differences that create varieties of Baptists have to do with methods, not with doctrines.

I’ve seen one heckuva lot of wrangling between Catholics on this board. I’ve seen one group calling the St. Joseph House Selling charm mere superstition and contrary to the CCC, while others defend it as an act of devotion and, therefore, legitimate. There are differences of opinion all over the place.

That’s mostly what you find among Baptists.

 

[Milliardo]

Another one that supports God judging us by what we do (works) is Romans 2:5-8. Amazingly, Protestants that I ask why they think that if our works are not necessary for salvation, then why would God judge us by our works, could not answer that question. Ask that of any Protestant; you’ll run around in circles as he tries to evade the obvious.

 

[Milliardo]

BoondockRev:

Also ponder this, when we have faith in Christ, we recieve His spirit (Holy Spirit) and it produces love, kindness, etc. Isn’t it those attitudes that cause us to do good works?

It isn’t automatic, though, no matter what some Protestants want to believe. It should produce good works; unfortunately for many, even those who continually profess Jesus, it doesn’t. I know several Protestants who time and again say they have faith in Christ but not only do they not do good; they do bad even. Faith in Christ should mean a conformity to Christ’s will as well. It should not end with believing in Him.

 

[Thal59]

Kevan:

Your list is fairly comprehensive.

Note that you have here Augustinians and nonaugustinians (i.e. Calvinists/predestinarians). You have that variety in Catholicism, too.

You have pacifists and nonpacifists in the list; ditto the RCC.

You have groups that practice foot-washing and those who do not. Is Catholicism any different?

Most all of the differences that create varieties of Baptists have to do with methods, not with doctrines.

I’ve seen one heckuva lot of wrangling between Catholics on this board. I’ve seen one group calling the St. Joseph House Selling charm mere superstition and contrary to the CCC, while others defend it as an act of devotion and, therefore, legitimate. There are differences of opinion all over the place.

That’s mostly what you find among Baptists.

Nice try. Now let’s see if we can “plumb” the depths of your reply without resorting to the roto-rooter man.

Ana-Baptist is an offshoot of Lutheranism and its main focus was on rebaptising those who had received baptism as infants; something the Ana-Baptists held was invalid. Yet, although they are an offshoot of Lutheranism, they were strongly opposed by Luther and this led to the tragedy of the peasent’s war in Germany by which, from 1523 -1527 almost a quarter of a million peasents were killed. Later, from the Ana-Baptists came other offshoot sects such as the Menonites. Lutheran - Ana-Baptist - Mennonite; you’ll find more than just differences of “method” in these three denominations.

The Baptist church, which originated in England around 1600 AD was an offshoot of Calvanism and accepted his precepts. Yet, only several years later, John Smyth founded the Armenian Baptists in Holland which rejected some of Calvin’s precepts including predestination. Yet, when the Baptist church was established here in America, it was pro-Calvin and pro-predestination.

While the 25,000 - 30,000 Protestant denominations have been clogging up man’s spiritual waters for almost 500 years now, it has been the Catholic Church that has been the Lord’s Liquid Plumr’.

Thal59

 

[Church_Militant]

While the 25,000 - 30,000 Protestant denominations have been clogging up man’s spiritual waters for almost 500 years now, it has been the Catholic Church that has been the Lord’s Liquid Plumr’.

Thal59

:bigyikes: