Fundamentalism and Atheism

[bridgeforsale]

Blaming the Catholic Church for the holocaust is patently false. Pope Pius XII is regarded as a “Righteous Gentile” by Israel, and his actions saved the lives of countless Jews. The video was an exampe of what happens when you give an idiot with an ax to grind a platform.

Hitchens never blames the CC for the Holocaust (at least not in a direct sense). He merely points to the churches history of anti-Jewish rhetoric and policies, and points to the obvious influence this must have had on Catholics. The church was responsible for setting the tone of hatred toward Jews, seen even today (and yes absolutely contributing to the hatred toward Jews seen in the earlier part of last century in places like Austria).

 

[josie_L]

You’re absolutely right, having numerous different positions, doesn’t really mean having numerous different positions; but only of course only if you’re an idiot.

I’m sorry, but I’m unable to transmit my high IQ to anyone over the internet (and therefore people will continue adhere to bizarre ancient religions, including those ran by a mafia of child rapists, who change their minds all the time but say they don’t)

I bet you wear overalls quite often and eat grits most mornings?

You’re getting back at me for calling you “absurd” aren’t you??

 

[josie_L]

Hitchens never blames the CC for the Holocaust (at least not in a direct sense). He merely points to the churches history of anti-Jewish rhetoric and policies, and points to the obvious influence this must have had on Catholics. The church was responsible for setting the tone of hatred toward Jews, seen even today (and yes absolutely contributing to the hatred toward Jews seen in the earlier part of last century in places like Austria).

The Church was “not responsible for setting the tone of hatred toward Jews”, in fact, you might want to read this bull issued by Pope Martin V, Declaration on the Protection of the Jews, 1419:

“Whereas the Jews are made to the image of God, and a remnant of them will one day be saved, and whereas they have sought our protection: following in the footsteps of our predecessors We command that they be not molested in their synagogues; that their laws, rights and customs be not assailed; that they be not baptized by force, constrained to observe Christian festivals, nor to wear new badges, and that they be not hindered in their business relations with Christians.”

salvationisfromthejews.com/endtimes.html

Notice how the Jews sought out the protection of the Church and note as well how Pope Martin said “following in the footsteps of our predecessors”, this would mean that he was not the first Pope to help out the Jews, in fact, the Popes as was mentioned in Rabbi David Dalin’s book “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” were protectors rather than instigators. Let me requote what was mentioned earlier:

"The historical fact is that popes have often spoken out in defense of the Jews, have protected them during times of persecution and pogroms, and have protected their right to worship freely in their synagogues. Popes have traditionally defended Jews from wild anti-semitic allegations. Popes regularly condemned anti-semites who sought to incite violence against Jews. Popes employed Jewish physicians in the Vatican and counted Jews among their personal confidants and friends.

As the great Cambridge University Jewish scholar Israel Abrahams noted in his monumental work, Jewish Life in the Middle Ages, first published in 1896, it "was a tradition with the popes of Rome to protect the Jews who were near at hand, " especially those living in Italy and Spain. **Moreover, notes historian Thomas Hadden, “of all medieval institutions, the [Catholic] Church stood alone in Europe in its consistent condemnation of Jewish persecutions.” ****Throughout the Middle Ages, Rome and the papal states "were the only places in [Western] Europe where the Jews were at all times free from attacks or expulsions . . . . **

By the time of his death in 1970,** Roth had achieved international renown as the most prolific and widely read Jewish historian of his generation, and as the century’s preeminent Jewish scholar of Italian Jewish history and the history of papal-Jewish relations. **Time and again, throughout his many writings and lectures, Roth pointed out that during eras of rampant anti-semitism, the popes in Rome were often the only world leader to raise their voices in defense and support of the Jews, “of all the dynasties of Europe,” noted Roth, "the papacy not only refused to persecute the Jews . . . but through the ages popes were protectors of the Jews . . . The truth is that the popes and the Catholic Church from the earliest days of the Church were never responsible for physical persecution of Jews and only Rome, among the capitals of the World, is free from having been a place of Jewish tragedy. For this we Jews must have gratitude."

Here’s where you can read several chapters of the book online:

books.google.ca/booksid=qAmKnonoAB0C&dq=the+myth+of+Hitler’s+pope&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=5rRfS4HkJdS_lAfIhvHXCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Also, a reminder to you that while you condemn the Church for “setting the stage” for anti-semitism, it is rather strange don’t you think that no one except the Catholic Church spoke out against Hitler during World War II (where were the enlightened thinkers of the day, what did the Universities and scientists do . . .etc.)? It seems like the Church did a whole lot more in saving the Jews than any other institution at the time, in fact, the Catholic Church’s efforts during the war managed to save some 860 000 Jews (more than double the amount saved by relief agencies and other religious institutions combined).

to be continued. . . .

 

[bridgeforsale]

This is stupid. You’d like to exploit isolated acts of benevolence toward Jews by Catholics to either condone or misrepresent Catholic historical treatment of Jews. I’ve never said Pope Pius XII was anti-Jewish, so raising Rabbi Dalin’s books and articles on the subject is a red herring.

St. Gregory of Nyssa refers to the Jews as “murderers of the Lord, assassins of the prophets, rebels and detesters of God,… companions of the devil, race of vipers, informers, calumniators, darkeners of the mind, pharisaic leaven, Sanhedrin of demons, accursed, detested,… enemies of all that is beautiful”

The Fourth Lateran Council decrees that Jews are to wear distinctive clothing, and on the three days before Easter they are not to go out in public

The Council of Narbonne orders Jews to wear a round patch

The Council of Béziers orders Jews to wear a round patch

The Synod of Breslau decrees compulsory ghettos for Jews

The Jews of Röttingen, charged with profaning the Host, are massacred and burned

Jews are expelled from Mainz by the archbishop

Pope Callistus III bans all social communication between Christians and Jews

The entire Jewish community in Trent, northern Italy, is put to death on the allegation that it had murdered a boy for religious purposes

After forcing many Jews to be baptized and then referring to them as Marranos (swine), and after an Inquisition in which some 700 Marranos were burnt at the stake for showing signs of “Jewish” taint, Spain expels all Jews from the country

Pope Paul IV restricts Jews to ghettos and decrees that they are to wear distinctive headgear

Pope St. Pius V expels Jews from the Papal States, allowing some to remain in Rome’s ghettos and in Ancona for commercial reasons

Pope Leo XII decrees that Jews are to be confined to ghettos and their property is to be confiscated

The last entry, Pope Leo XII’s declaration, ocurred in 1826, but this type of treatment continued. Indeed it began as early as St. Augustine, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, and Constantine; and continued long after Leo’s 19th century dictate (well into the 20th century). Here’s a list for you:

sullivan-county.com/news/mine/timeline.htm

I’m not going to deny that some popes did defend the Jews, but so what. You don’t cancel out an evil act by doing something good. While certainly you can atone for wrongful conduct by apologizing, and making sure the same things don’t continue to happen in the future, there was never that sort of effort until more recently. Up until the mid-20th century the church was still very anti-Jewish, but right up until the end of the 19th century it was extremely anti-Jewish (notwithstanding the fruitless attempts by “some” popes to defend the Jews). I didn’t do the math, but I’d say about an equal number of popes defended the Jews as persecuted them (by tossing them in ghettos and the like).

I think you really topped it off by saying the church stood alone against the Nazi’s (or words to that effect). Uhhh, huh? Do the names Winston Churchill or FDR ring a bell (if not how about WWII and the allies)

In many European countries the eighteenth century “Age of Enlightenment” saw the dismantling of archaic corporate, hierarchical forms of society in favour of individual equality of citizens before the law. How this new state of affairs would affect the civil, legal and national status of previously autonomous, though subordinated, Jewish communities became known as the Jewish question. In many countries enhanced civil rights were gradually extended to the Jews, though often only in a partial form and on condition that the Jews abandon many aspects of their previous identity in favour of integration and assimilation with the dominant society.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism#The_New_Testament_and_early_Christianity

The enlightenment is what marked the beginning of improved treatment for Jews. If you want live in a fantasy world and think your church saved the Jews (or whatever hogwash floats your boat) go right ahead. Hey I bet if you dig hard enough you’ll find another rabbi who confined his reading of Catholic history to a single pope (and thinks you guys are the best thing since sliced bread).

Anyway …

 

[CWBetts]

FDR turned away Jewish refugees. Do not confuse apposing German imperialism with helping Jews. It was not the death camps that started the war, but German expansion.

 

[bridgeforsale]

FDR turned away Jewish refugees. Do not confuse apposing German imperialism with helping Jews. It was not the death camps that started the war, but German expansion.

Saying your church leaders were no better than political leaders of the United States - doesn’t really cut the mustard does it?

If you want to rely on that logic, then great, we might actually agree on something. I’m not omniscient, and I don’t have exhaustive knowledge of counterfactuals. Therefore, I can’t say a medieval secular civilization wouldn’t have executed those it viewed as enemies of its social order by burning them alive, or whether a secular civilization would have treated religious minorities any better than the church did. I can say, looking back at history, only once we began to detach ourselves from the extreme religious ferver of the medieval Catholic Church, did we finally begin to emerge as a rational civilization. What role religion played in the whole thing is speculative; but the pattern is clear. Societies who are able to transcend extreme forms of religiosity, and favor secular governance and science based education, perform better than those who don’t.

With regard to your observation, even if it was true that FDR was no better or worse than the pope and greater church was during the Nazi era (which I would dispute), FDR (to my knowledge) never claimed to be the infallible vicar of Christ, and our conduit to god. The church doesn’t have the convenience of being judged like the rest of us; she claims infallibility & therefore she must be held to that standard. Holding her to a lower standard is logically inconsistent. When I hold the church up to an infallible moral standard, it fails miserably. If you want to compare her to the rest of us, then fine, I agree she’s not better or worse then mankind in general (because it’s an organization founded and administered by men; with no magical friend keeping her honest)