Fundamentalism

[IgnatianPhilo]

Only by accepting Jesus can we be saved isn’t that true? If He says something and we turn against His Words and cling to our own views what does that make us? If we reject what God sent through Jesus and prefer our ideas and interpretations over Jesus’s then my understanding is that we are turning against God.

And on Jesus return the same applies. If we prefer our will over His then we have rejected God even though we may be the author of every righteous deed and profess loyalty to Him.

It’s God"s will that should always come first above ours.

Therefore all Christians are fundamentalists since they deny the truth of God and stubbornly cling to their own faith right?

Your idea of fundamentalism is anyone who isn’t Bahai essentially, since all non bahai have impure motives (that is they are arrogant and proud and not humble enough to accept God).

 

[worldcitizen]

Therefore all Christians are fundamentalists since they deny the truth of God and stubbornly cling to their own faith right?

Your idea of fundamentalism is anyone who isn’t Bahai essentially, since all non bahai have impure motives (that is they are arrogant and proud and not humble enough to accept God).

Its not for me to judge. It’s for God to judge these matters. When and how He judges us is up to Him alone. I guess we’ll find out more in the hereafter. Until then we can only try as best we can to do everything in our power to ensure we are in tune with God’s Will.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Its not for me to judge. It’s for God to judge these matters. When and how He judges us is up to Him alone. I guess we’ll find out more in the hereafter. Until then we can only try as best we can to do everything in our power to ensure we are in tune with God’s Will.

Every time I asked you to define what a fundamentalist is you added more and more elements till you basically all but admitted that its anyone who isn’t a bahai. In particular I suspect those (like myself) who would challenge Bahai truth claims.

If you can’t apply the term fundamentalist to anyone, though its obvious who you apply it based on what you have said, then why are you even seeking to define it? It seems like the classical Bahai thing to do at this point mind you.

 

[worldcitizen]

Every time I asked you to define what a fundamentalist is you added more and more elements till you basically all but admitted that its anyone who isn’t a bahai. In particular I suspect those (like myself) who would challenge Bahai truth claims.

If you can’t apply the term fundamentalist to anyone, though its obvious who you apply it based on what you have said, then why are you even seeking to define it? It seems like the classical Bahai thing to do at this point mind you.

The Oxford dictionary defines fundamentalism as “the interpretation of every word in the sacred texts as literal truth”. That applies to those who do that but not every person of every Faith.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Bahai believe Jesus remained dead.

Orthodox Christians believe Jesus rose from the dead to glory.

Baha’is also believe that Christ rose from the dead to glory. We believe the resurrection was in a spiritual body, as Paul (eyewitness to the Risen Christ) described in 1 Corinthians.

 

[Peebo]

catholic.com/tracts/fundamentalism

This is the Catholic response to fundamentalism…the Bahia religion is not Christianity so whatever they consider fundamentalism has no bearing on what Catholics consider fundamentalism…in fact it has no bearing on what Protestants would consider fundamentalism…and even more so Protestant fundamentalists who because of their literal interpretation of scripture would definitely consider those who practice the Bahia religion as people in need of salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior…just as they also believe Catholics are on their way to hell for following what they say are man made traditions.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Baha’is also believe that Christ rose from the dead to glory. We believe the resurrection was in a spiritual body, as Paul (eyewitness to the Risen Christ) described in 1 Corinthians.

What do you define as a “spiritual body” because Paul affirmed that the resurrection was real and physical.
*
“And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.”* (1 Corinthians 15:14).

 

[worldcitizen]

What do you define as a “spiritual body” because Paul affirmed that the resurrection was real and physical.
*
“And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.”* (1 Corinthians 15:14).

Like in a dream or a vision. If you can remember any dream you had where you conversed and met people? I have many times and it seemed so real.

The disciples had visions and dreams and came to an understanding of the reality of Christ through that way not that which Christians imagine that a dead body physically arose again.

When Christ told His disciples to ‘let the dead bury the dead’ was He referring to physically dead people buying physically dead people?

That’s why discernment and wisdom are required and not just literal interpretation of the scriptures is necessary. What is literal and which is figurative?

That is something that we are told the Sprit of truth will come and reveal to us. We do not know and can only speculate. It is God Who knows all.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Just passing through and felt the need to ask a question on this one:

It is to my limited understanding that the Baha’i is a syncretist faith.

Typically, syncretic means an attempt to create a mish-mash of different religions. The Baha’i Faith is not any more syncretist than other Abrahamic religions who all have borrowed aspects of the existing religious tradition in which they appeared.

IE: Fundamental agreement of all religions of the world, and that any perceived conflicts are actually misinterpretations or interpolations within the sacred texts of a tradition?

I’m not sure I would go that far. Baha’is believe in a Divine evolutionary imperative for human cultural evolution, facilitated by Theophanies which appear periodically in different ages and places. Religion is the cultural response to these Theophanies, but that response always includes the contingent, limited, incomplete, temporary and corrupted, as well as the eternal, transcendent and perfect.

Doesn’t that then predispose you and your fellows to the idea of this “Fundamentalist vs. Non-Fundamentalist” rubric?

It’s more that the very core and essence of the Baha’i Faith is unity - among the nations, religions, and varying racial and ethnic peoples of the world. We believe that Baha’u’llah came as the latest Theophany in order to help usher in a world civilization where war will be abolished, people of every faith and belief system treat those of other religions and perspectives with respect, kindness and love.

Because technically, you could interpret any person interpreting their texts within the context of their religious tradition as a fundamentalist…

Fundamentalism is a rigid, concrete, and nuance-less way of seeing the world, that their belief system is right and everyone who disagrees with them is wrong, wrong, wrong! I have come across fundamentalists of almost every conceivable religion, philosophy, political viewpoint and belief system.

 

[Matthew_Light]

What do you define as a “spiritual body” because Paul affirmed that the resurrection was real and physical.
*
“And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.”* (1 Corinthians 15:14).

Of course, we both agree that the resurrection was and is real.

I’m not sure Paul says that the natural body (physical body) is resurrected.

"It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: " 1 Cor 15:44.

Anyway, this is very far off topic for this thread, if anyone wants to discuss the resurrection of the Lord Christ further with me feel free to PM.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Like in a dream or a vision. If you can remember any dream you had where you conversed and met people? I have many times and it seemed so real.

The disciples had visions and dreams and came to an understanding of the reality of Christ through that way not that which Christians imagine that a dead body physically arose again.

When Christ told His disciples to ‘let the dead bury the dead’ was He referring to physically dead people buying physically dead people?

That’s why discernment and wisdom are required and not just literal interpretation of the scriptures is necessary. What is literal and which is figurative?

That is something that we are told the Sprit of truth will come and reveal to us. We do not know and can only speculate. It is God Who knows all.

That’s what baha’u’llah lead the baha’i to believe. Here’s an article I hope you’ll have a look at.
ucatholic.com/saints/ascension/

I saved it for an occasion such as this

 

[eddie_too]

Jesus had a human body just like every other human being has had, has or will have.

when Jesus’ tomb was visited the morning of the first day of the week after Jesus’ crucifixion, death and burial, the tomb was empty.

in the forty days following their finding the tomb empty, Jesus touched, spoke to, taught and ate with His apostles.

had Jesus’ human body been changed by His death and Resurrection? yes, it had been changed in to a glorified body. It was the same body He possessed throughout His human life, but It was no longer subject to all of the physical laws of this universe. upon His Resurrection, His body had been changed and had become what God wills all of our bodies to become after our deaths and upon the resurrections of our bodies.

this is the constant teaching of those who were there at the time and had been personally commissioned by Jesus to teach the world.

johnny-come-lately’s with a different understanding that rejects the teaching of those the Lord specifically commissioned to teach His Gospel have been denying the truth and trying to confuse people about the Resurrection from the very first day the tomb was found to be empty.

they bastardize and misinterpret Sacred Scripture in their attempts to lure people away from the truth.

the best policy we have is to ignore them whenever possible. if they persist in badgering us about their falsehoods, it is perfectly acceptable to remove ourselves from their presence and to ask them to leave us alone in the future.

it may well be that their efforts are the fruits of profound ignorance and that, accordingly, they are to be deeply pitied and for us to put them in our prayers that they might find the light of truth, beauty and love of our Father in heaven that it is possible for any human being to receive only through our Lord Jesus Christ and in His Holy Spirit.

when any one denies the tomb was empty and that subsequently Jesus touched, taught and ate with His apostles before His Ascension, they have little if anything of value to offer others.

 

[TonyBS]

That’s what baha’u’llah lead the baha’i to believe. Here’s an article I hope you’ll have a look at.
ucatholic.com/saints/ascension/

I saved it for an occasion such as this

Thank you I looked at the article.

I offer this this passage that gives great insight into this subject Acts 7:55 “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God”.

Baha’ullah’s writings confirm this to be so. The Bahá’í scriptures do not reject the uniqueness of Jesus Christ; on the contrary, they respect, love, and emphasize it.

Regards Tony

 

[arthra]

I was always intrigued by the following verses in the Gospel of Matthew 7:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I was always intrigued by the following verses in the Gospel of Matthew 7:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Bahai would more likely approach Ali Nuri than Jesus in the afterlife saying ‘Lord Lord,’ right?

 

[Peter_J]

Since this thread was revived, a few days ago, I’ve been thinking: I recall many years ago liking the book Catholicism and Fundamentalism … but generally speaking I rarely hear anything about “What should we do about Fundamentalists?” or similar questions. Perhaps that’s something that we (including, but not limited to, those of us who are Catholic) need to work on.

On the other hand, an alternate point of view might say that since it’s a Protestant problem, Protestants are the ones who need to do something about it, but I don’t know if I accept that reasoning.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I am of the opinion that fundamentalism is a mindset and that there can be fundamentalists in every belief system. Fundamentalist atheists, fundamentalist Protestants, fundamentalist Catholics, fundamentalist Muslims, and fundamentalist Baha’is.

Hello Matthew. I would agree if what you mean by “fundamentalist” is a person who believes in the strict and literal interpretation of the tenets of their religion.
ML:

The fundamentalists tend to be very rigid and black-and-white in their beliefs. If someone has a different religion or world-view, they are “wrong”. People all should convert from their present world-view and join the fundamentalist’s religion or belief system, or they are going to “miss out” or suffer or even go to hell forever.

I’m not sure that one would need to be a fundamentalist to believe that others are “wrong” in some of their beliefs. The Catholic Church readily points to the fact that there is truth to greater or lesser degree in other religions, but the implication of that statement is that the Catholic Church is where the fullness of truth resides. I would not hold it against a Muslim, or a Baha’i, or a Protestant or a Jew if they felt exactly the same way about their religious position, nor would I consider such a view as “fundamentalist.” That said, I agree that there are those who see religions as being either 100% correct or %100 percent wrong, and are not interested in exploring commonalities. There is little hope for dialog with such people, but most people are not this way.
ML:

I also see a lot of people from many different beliefs who are far less absolutist. They recognize that truth looks different as we approach it from different directions. These people are much less interested in converting others viewpoints as discovering areas of agreement and cooperation with others. They see value in a diversity of perspectives over insisting on a monoculture.

I would say it differently, that there is at least some truth in all of the world’s major religions. But I would not agree to an indifferentist point of view. I respect people’s right to believe as their conscience compels them, but I would still hold that the best way to get to heaven is by coming to the Catholic Church. I hope you don’t think that conviction makes me a “fundamentalist” or a zealot.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I was always intrigued by the following verses in the Gospel of Matthew 7:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I like what the document Lumen Gentium says about salvation for people outside of the Catholic Church. Some are surprised to hear this in a Catholic document:
Lumen Gentium Par 16:

Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.*(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Definitely not a “fundamentalist” approach to the Gospel. But definitely a Catholic one.

Peace,
Robert

.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Most would believe others religions to be wrong. That doesn’t make one fundamentalist. Otherwise all religious people would be fundamentalist because if we actually believe in our religion then we believe others are false.

This is true I think it is admiring what is good in other religions while rejecting what is false. Like I can admire that Muslims worship one God or I can admire that Judaism is the precursor to Christianity. Fundamentalism isn’t necessarily saying other religions are wrong if I believe my religion then of course I think other religions are wrong. I think the problem was fundamentalism is a strict interpretation of religious texts but without an authority to guide which interpretation that group has I don’t feel like they can interpret it. I know I am trying to say something but I’m not sure how to say that I’m sorry if I’m being confusing

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

Since this thread was revived, a few days ago, I’ve been thinking: I recall many years ago liking the book Catholicism and Fundamentalism … but generally speaking I rarely hear anything about “What should we do about Fundamentalists?” or similar questions. Perhaps that’s something that we (including, but not limited to, those of us who are Catholic) need to work on.

On the other hand, an alternate point of view might say that since it’s a Protestant problem, Protestants are the ones who need to do something about it, but I don’t know if I accept that reasoning.

What drives a lot of people away from religion (especially from Christianity in the West,) is that the smallest number of Christians have the loudest voices (imagine with me a fire-and-brimstone pastor on the street corner.) It is often the case that these loud-voiced Christians are Fundamentalist in their thought; that is to say the definition of Fundamentalism is taking all scripture as literal truth. I feel that because of the lack of biblical knowledge and the superfluous amount of personal bias causes many to lose a genuine connection with Christ. The very people that try to bring others to God are the ones that also push others away from his saving Grace.