Fundamentalism

[RCCDefender]

Well, I’ve been trying to catch up on this thread and I don’t have an immediate response for all of the comments made, as they are so numerous, however I do wnat to link the dissidents to scripturecatholic.com/. Hopefully then you can see the Catholic scriptural “proofs” for our beliefs.

One thing I do get sick of is how every anti Catholic LOVES to quotes Ephesians 2:8-9. Why do you fail to go on to verse 10?? Is is perhaps because it says, “For we are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.” (emphasis mine)?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

manualman:

Greetings and welcome to the forum!..
The more I learned from the Navs, the more my conscience started to bother me. I too heard the grape juice theory. Grape juice is a non-existant item in cultures with no refridgerators! It either goes bad or turns into wine in no time flat! Besides that, read the next line. The steward OBVIOUSLY notes that it is alcholic wine. Nobody loses their ability to tell good ghrape juice from bad after having a few too many drinks of GRAPE JUICE!

I attended the services of some churches of other people in the Navs. Most were longer than one hour, but none contained more scripture. They had more music, more preaching ABOUT the subject scripture passage, but not more actual scripture than the three reading we get at mass. If you ever hear the passage where Jesus renames Simon to Peter, you’ll hear some distortion about the Greek words being different, but won’t hear that the REAL reason for that is the gender of the noun, not a distinction intended by Jesus. You won’t here that both forms of rock are Kephas in ARAMAIC, the language Jesus actually spoke. Understood properly, most evangelical pastors can’t explain why Jesus told Peter “You are rock and on this rock I will found my church.”

The catholic position of faith, works and justification has ALWAYS been harmonious with both Paul’s admonitions against ‘works’ (which to Paul’s audience are the works of the Mosaic law) AND Jesus words about the sheep and the goats. The catholic position has always been that we are justified through grace. But we further understand that the choices we make in living our lives IS ITSELF and acceptance or rejection of that grace. When we choose to subordinate our own will to that of Christ in our ordinary lives, that is an actual occurence of accepting the offer of God’s grace. It does NOT constitute an ‘earning’ of salvation (though individual catholics botch understanding of that distinction quite as often as they do other matters of faith and doctrine).

Evangelical pastors always need to wave their hands and deny the CLEAR MEANING of the text when asserting that communion is merely a symbol and a remembrance of Jesus and his sacrifice. Read those texts in John; why would anybody abandon Jesus over his choice of bread as a symbol? They wouldn’t. They left because they were repulsed at the need to eat his very flesh and blood. He let them go because God never forces us to obey. If they had merely misunderstood, he would have corrected them!

Finally, evangelical pastors never seem to notice that their brand of christianity is absent from history for the first 1,500 years! The earliest of christians wrote clearly about Christs real presence in the eucharist, had a hierarchy that placed critical importance on tracing succession to the apostles, believed in sacraments as sources of God’s grace, etc.

Please note that the Catholic Church does NOT place the Pope and councils on the same plane as scripture. The canon of scripture is closed. The Catholic Church teaches that no new GENERAL revelation is forthcoming. No church teaching can ever contradict genuine principles taught in scripture (versus distortions or misunderstandings of scripture). The role of the magesterium is to interpret scripture and provide guidance on the abundance of issues not definitively outlined in scripture (contraception, end of life morality, stem cells, other modern phenomenon not thought of 2,000 years ago).

Jesus instructed us to be in this world, but not of it. Catholics, in fact DO tend towards be too much of it. Fundies, in my experience tend towards not being IN it (random door-door hardly qualifies as being in the world). Different side of the same sin. If you aren’t IN the world, the lost folks can’t relate to you. You become Ned Flanders to them. Ineffective as witnesses and prone to spiritual inbreeding. The world is NOT evil. It is good, but fallen. Ponder that distinction between catholic and fundamentalist teaching long enough and you’ll eventually end up re-poping!

Hello manualman. Just read your post, I missed it the first time. Thank you for the info. One thing I truly cannot see. You mentioned above, “The world is NOT evil”. This I cannot see…with all the scripture about friends with the world enimies of God. That Satan runs the show here… I can’t see it.

I believe I cannot see it as you describe because;
a) I have been truly born again - truly
b) I am more or less brain washed…

If “a” is correct, everyone else that cannot see it is losing…
If “b” is correct, I am losing…

 

[St.Eric]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello manualman. Just read your post, I missed it the first time. Thank you for the info. One thing I truly cannot see. You mentioned above, “The world is NOT evil”. This I cannot see…with all the scripture about friends with the world enimies of God. That Satan runs the show here… I can’t see it.

I believe I cannot see it as you describe because;
a) I have been truly born again - truly
b) I am more or less brain washed…

If “a” is correct, everyone else that cannot see it is losing…
If “b” is correct, I am losing…

The reason that the world is good is because GOD CREATED IT. GOD cannot create anything bad if God is an All Loving, All Knowing, All Caring God. The world is good because God created it. It is fallen because Lucifer is in it. Lucifer was good- the light bringer- but HE CHOSE to rebel against God. When scripture talks about “the world” beign bad it is referncing the fact the Luficer is unleashed here and our fallen state in original sin is bad. God will not and cannot create anything that is objectively bad. “For God so loved the world…” How could God love something inherintly adn objectively bad? Answer: he does not. The proof that God loves the world and us who are in it is in Christ’s miracles: He used spit and mud to make a blind man see; He used water to walk on to show his power, he raised a dead body from the earth to show his power and his love, he changed water into wine, etc. etc., He uses things of this world to show his power and to channel his grace.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hello StEric, thank you for your response.

I agree that God created the world good, etc.etc. I see this world “system”(for lack of a better word) as evil. Everything going against God, because that is man’s propensity.

TV…evil. Not the TV but most of the shows…Satan is using it to take us away from GOD
Movies…same thing.
Video Games…Ditto
Man’s pleasures…same thing. Years ago homosexuality was seen as it is. Fornication was seen as it is. Common-law… Now we are “discriminating”.
Music…same…most popular music has filthy language, or if not talks about lover in a lusting way.
Government’s decisions…
etc…etc…

I now see doing anything that does not Glorify God. I know I come across very juvenile (ie. not watching Desperate Housewives etc.) but that is a good example…nothing about that show glorifies GOD yet it is number 1. Like everything that is #1. I go back to Romans 12:2"…Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind…"

Anyway,…

 

[St.Eric]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello StEric, thank you for your response.

I agree that God created the world good, etc.etc. I see this world “system”(for lack of a better word) as evil. Everything going against God, because that is man’s propensity.

TV…evil. Not the TV but most of the shows…Satan is using it to take us away from GOD
Movies…same thing.
Video Games…Ditto
Man’s pleasures…same thing. Years ago homosexuality was seen as it is. Fornication was seen as it is. Common-law… Now we are “discriminating”.
Music…same…most popular music has filthy language, or if not talks about lover in a lusting way.
Government’s decisions…
etc…etc…

I now see doing anything that does not Glorify God. I know I come across very juvenile (ie. not watching Desperate Housewives etc.) but that is a good example…nothing about that show glorifies GOD yet it is number 1. Like everything that is #1. I go back to Romans 12:2"…Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind…"

Anyway,…

Malachi. I love ya man! Know that first. AS I said, the world is good, God created it. Mankind is fallen…Hence your problem with the tv shows and the video games…those are a product of mankind, not of God! The physical Earth and everything of it is not OBJECTIVELY BAD…that is, in and of itself, without corrupt intervention, is not bad…because God is good and God created it. BUT, something of this world are bad because MAN, through the influence of Luficer, screwed it up…Yeah, some of the things that you referenced are not good, but come on, when God shows us a Sunrise on a crisp winter morning with fresh snow all around and the air is peaceful… is that not of God???

 

[Cath.orProtes]

St.Eric:

Malachi. I love ya man! Know that first. AS I said, the world is good, God created it. Mankind is fallen…Hence your problem with the tv shows and the video games…those are a product of mankind, not of God! The physical Earth and everything of it is not OBJECTIVELY BAD…that is, in and of itself, without corrupt intervention, is not bad…because God is good and God created it. BUT, something of this world are bad because MAN, through the influence of Luficer, screwed it up…Yeah, some of the things that you referenced are not good, but come on, when God shows us a Sunrise on a crisp winter morning with fresh snow all around and the air is peaceful… is that not of God???

Hi again. I am probably not communicating properly. I agree with you. The “world” is good. This world “system” is evil. That is how I see. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

I guess before, when I went off the handle, I see my catholic relatives not having a problem with indulging in those lusts…the flesh…the eyes…and the pride of life. (I don’t want to go there though, just trying to explain or give reason for some past posts)…and I am not “judging” just observing and now trying to clarify.

I see things differently from everyone I know…except those in my church. Is that cause I have been truly “born again”?

I struggle with this myself. Born again, or brain washed. I am leaning to “born again”…but I am investigating.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

St.Eric:

Malachi. I love ya man! Know that first. AS I said, the world is good, God created it. Mankind is fallen…Hence your problem with the tv shows and the video games…those are a product of mankind, not of God! The physical Earth and everything of it is not OBJECTIVELY BAD…that is, in and of itself, without corrupt intervention, is not bad…because God is good and God created it. BUT, something of this world are bad because MAN, through the influence of Luficer, screwed it up…Yeah, some of the things that you referenced are not good, but come on, when God shows us a Sunrise on a crisp winter morning with fresh snow all around and the air is peaceful… is that not of God???

Hi again. I am probably not communicating properly. I agree with you. The “world” is good. This world “system” is evil. That is how I see. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

I guess before, when I went off the handle, I see my catholic relatives not having a problem with indulging in those lusts…the flesh…the eyes…and the pride of life. (I don’t want to go there though, just trying to explain or give reason for some past posts)…and I am not “judging” just observing and now trying to clarify.

I see things differently from everyone I know…except those in my church. Is that cause I have been truly “born again”?

I struggle with this myself. Born again, or brain washed. I am leaning to “born again”…but I am investigating.

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

I struggle with this myself. Born again, or brain washed. I am leaning to “born again”…but I am investigating.

I am not going so far as to say that you are brain washed, mistaken perhaps but not brain washed. You wouldn’t be on this site if you couldn’t think for yourself.

I do think that the tendency of fundamentalists to put so much empahsis on doing many activities within the church and with only the church groups could, if the right charismatic pastor comes along, make the members more vulnerable to becoming cult like.

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

I now see doing anything that does not Glorify God. I know I come across very juvenile (ie. not watching Desperate Housewives etc.) but that is a good example…nothing about that show glorifies GOD yet it is number 1. Like everything that is #1. I go back to Romans 12:2"…Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind…"

Anyway,…

YOu do not come across as juvenile at all. I, personally, don’t like Desperate Housewives. It offends me but I can not get into another person’s soul and discern what is wrong for that person. The choices have to be between us and God and we can not decide what is right and wrong for another Christian. To do so, violates the spirit of Romans 14.

 

[imroc]

I think that the beauty of this situation is that you have delved into scripture and have kept pretty weary about jumping to conclusions. They Holy Spirit has opened your eyes to some truth and now you have zeal to follow through. Your note of the world “system” being evil is pretty accurate. Satanically driven, but men still make up their own minds due to the free will of God. Are they blinded by Satan? Sure, but I’d make a pretty good guess that most people have heard the good news but fail to respond.

I think I had mentioned this earlier, but you should take a hearing to Jesse Romero’s conversion story. If you don’t like it, give it away, but I’m sure it would interest you. God Bless and keep inquiring!

 

[malachi_a_serva]

deb1:

YOu do not come across as juvenile at all. I, personally, don’t like Desperate Housewives. It offends me but I can not get into another person’s soul and discern what is wrong for that person. The choices have to be between us and God and we can not decide what is right and wrong for another Christian. To do so, violates the spirit of Romans 14.

Hello again Deb1. You raise an interesting point. Question if I may. So if I said “Desperate Houswives” is not a show for a Christian and a Christian would watch it all the time (my assumption being it is not God honering etc…noting but covetousness, lust, greed, fornication, etc…)…I have never watched it but I am not stupid. Anyway, so it would be “judgemental” of me if I were to critisize a fellow Christian? Or more accurately “chastise”? Is it not my place? My responsibility? Is it just God’s?

Thanks. I do see what you are trying to say though. Should I seperate since I do not agree?

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello again Deb1. You raise an interesting point. Question if I may. So if I said “Desperate Houswives” is not a show for a Christian and a Christian would watch it all the time (my assumption being it is not God honering etc…noting but covetousness, lust, greed, fornication, etc…)…I have never watched it but I am not stupid. Anyway, so it would be “judgemental” of me if I were to critisize a fellow Christian? Or more accurately “chastise”? Is it not my place? My responsibility? Is it just God’s?

Thanks. I do see what you are trying to say though. Should I seperate since I do not agree?

I have found that in life it is easier not to worry what other people, especially Christians, are doing. I have to many of my own faults that I am trying to work through. Besides it is possible that they are much stronger in some areas then I am and that Desperate Housewife does not effect their souls. I can’t know, so I can’t judge.

As far as chastising(I don’t think that I would use such a strong word), you can bring it up to the person, tell them your concerns but after that you have to let it alone. It becomes an issue between them and God.

What should you seperate from?

 

[Chris_LaRock]

I hope this isn’t off topic, but I see fundamentalists as being like the religious leaders described in the New Testament. Arrogant, selfserving, selfrighteous, lovers of themselves rather than God, and hypocrits. Fundamentalists’ aren’t humble, as the Bible tells us to be. They rely on their own goodness and wisdom to save them.

 

[Beeline]

malachi_a_serva:

In fact, as a Catholic…I knew nothing what the Bible really preached.

I look forward to any replys.

ps…I am new at this, my first posting.

As a Catholic and one who attended Catholic School
and some CCD, we are taught all the tenets of the faith. However, we are more taught the Bible in the
environment of what it means to us. Not remembering verses and being able to quote these
lines and their location in the Bible.

If we were taught more of a ‘quoting’ type of way more of it would stick
and we wouldnt be so vulnerable to someone pointing out the Catholic vurnerabilities of belief by
pointing out selected Bilbe text and verses.

In fact, Fundamentalists et al can do a marvelous
job of pointing out that Catholicism is unbiblical in
this fashion. But its like walking into a Ford dealership and hearing all the bad things about Chevy and thinking that Ford is the best. You need
to hear each side offer its arguments. Otherwise, your just being impressed by only one side of a shiny coin and neglecting the other.

The Catholic side does win the arguments.
But most people are not open minded enough to hear out both sides, More often, they pick a trusting
expert and stick with that till obvious flaws show up, if ever.

In my 20’s , there was the Bible Answer Man show
with Dr Walter Martin (the original host) and he made excellent sense through bible alone arguments. It indeed was a very shiny coin on that side. Later, I became more exposed to the Catholic
arguments(Bible Verses) that opposed much of of what was in contention.
Weighed it out, seriously thought about it, and the Catholics won hands down.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

St.Eric:

Cath.or.protest.

I think we can get past the water controversy by examinging what the Church beleived for 1500 years. There wasn’t any debate until Luther arrived on the scene. As for me, what really swayed my beleif was taking a look at the first Christians, the ones taught by the very apostles, and what they beleived. When you do this, you can’t help but to see the truth in the teachings of the Catholic Church. Hence my quote from John Henry Newman on my signature line.
Yes, St. Ignatius is well worth reading. Great stuff. The quote you questioned above was taken from his letter to teh Smyrnaens circa. A.D. 110. You can find it and the writings of many of the early Church fathers in “The Faith of the early Fathers” by William A. Jurgens. It is a 3 volume set covering the writings from the pre-Nicene and Nicene eras to the end of the Patristic period. The whole set sells for around $50.00.

Hello StEric, I thank you for your many posts. In reading some of your quotes of the Early Church Fathers, it intrigued me. I figured you had merit is stating, “how could have St. John, the author of revalations, tought St. Ignatius wrong?”

That really bothered me, and in a good way. So I have been reviewing some of his writings and I came upon this one. From what I can gather, he is saying that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are not one in the same. Here is the quote:

I therefore, yet not I, out the love of Jesus Christ, “entreat you that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment.”759 For there are some vain talkers760 and deceivers, not Christians, but Christ-betrayers,761 bearing about the name of Christ in deceit, and “corrupting the word”762 of the Gospel; while they intermix the poison of their deceit with their persuasive talk,763 as if they mingled aconite with sweet wine, that so he who drinks, being deceived in his taste by the very great sweetness of the draught, may incautiously meet with his death. One of the ancients gives us this advice, “Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil.”764 For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak765 of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.

Here is the link:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.iv.vi.html?bcb=0

It concerns me, then goes back to could I trust anything he said.

Thanks for your time.

 

[imroc]

I don’t think you understand what he is saying. While the Trinity is a completely inseparable most loving unity into one, Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son. The Father is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. But all are one in being with the Father. So, YES, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not one in the same. They are 3 seperate persons but one in being. I ask you to read further on the Trinity. Can you explain to me, what you believe the Holy Trinity is? Seriously. Because I don’t think you understand it and I pray to God that you have not fallen into a group of people known as the “United Pentecostal”! Please reply?!

 

[imroc]

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

 

[JaneFrances]

Hi Again Malachi!

Regarding your Ignatius quotation concern. . .I’m not sure you understand it.

St. Ignatius is not refuting the essential doctrine of the Trinity. His direct quotation is:

“Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person”

This teaching is entirely in keeping with traditional Christianity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as defined in the doctrine of the Trinity, are One God in Three Persons.

Perhaps you have chosen to believe another doctrine, but this quotation of St. Ignatius is very representative of the Christian understanding of who God is. If, for some reason, you believe that St. Ignatius held some heretical view of the Trinity, I would suggest you familiarize yourself with more of his writings.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JaneFrances:

“Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person”

This teaching is entirely in keeping with traditional Christianity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as defined in the doctrine of the Trinity, are One God in Three Persons.

Perhaps you have chosen to believe another doctrine, but this quotation of St. Ignatius is very representative of the Christian understanding of who God is. If, for some reason, you believe that St. Ignatius held some heretical view of the Trinity, I would suggest you familiarize yourself with more of his writings.

Hello imroc and JaneFrances. I believe one God in three persons. So it would appear my original interpretation to be erroneous. Which makes me glad.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[JaneFrances]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi again. I am probably not communicating properly. I agree with you. The “world” is good. This world “system” is evil. That is how I see. The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

I guess before, when I went off the handle, I see my catholic relatives not having a problem with indulging in those lusts…the flesh…the eyes…and the pride of life. (I don’t want to go there though, just trying to explain or give reason for some past posts)…and I am not “judging” just observing and now trying to clarify.

I see things differently from everyone I know…except those in my church. Is that cause I have been truly “born again”?

I struggle with this myself. Born again, or brain washed. I am leaning to “born again”…but I am investigating.

Oh Malachi,

I think we are back to where we began. It seems that your entire arguement against Catholicism is based on your observation that your “Catholic relatives” are horribly sinful people. This is a weightless arguement. We are all sinners in need of God’s mercy. Bring some good doctrinal arguement to the table and try to leave your bad Catholic relatives at home.

You claim that you are not judgemental, yet you consistently contend that everyone you know sees things differently than you. . .except those in your church. These are things you simply can not know and your “observation” is very much a judgement. I would suspect that there are a few members of your current church who would see some things differently from you. And I would equally suspect that there are some things upon which you and your Catholic relatives may agree. Don’t generalize according to your experience.