Fundamentalism

[malachi_a_serva]

Hi there. In your “library” under “non-catholic groups” is the following statement:

"Their success is partly due to their discipline. For all their talk about the Catholic Church being “rule-laden,” there are perhaps no Christians who operate in a more regimented manner. Their rules—non-biblical rules, one might add—extend not just to religion and religious practices proper, but to facets of everyday life. Most people are familiar with their strictures on drinking, gambling, dancing, and smoking.

Fundamentalists also are intensely involved in their local congregations. Many people returning to the Catholic Church from Fundamentalism complain that as Fundamentalists they had no time or room for themselves; everything centered around the church. All their friends were members; all their social activities were staged by it. Not to attend Wednesday evening services (in addition to one or two services on Sunday), not to participate in the Bible studies and youth groups, not to dress and act like everyone else in the congregation—these immediately put one beyond the pale; and in a small church (few Fundamentalist churches have more than a hundred members) this meant being ostracized, a silent invitation to conform or to worship elsewhere.

Nevertheless, despite the criticism Fundamentalists sometimes receive, they do undertake the praiseworthy task of adhering to certain key Christian tenets in a society that has all too often forgotten about Christ. "

I am somewhat perplexed on the attack of being obiedient to the word of GOD, as it is in the Holy Bible. I do understand the viewpoint. I grew up and was raised Catholic. I went about my life as any other person in this world. I smoked, I drank alcohol, got drunk all the time, had sex outside of marriage with people I met in the bars…all these things I did with my Catholic friends…with Catholics and too Catholics (the sex part). How is that evidence of a Christian walk with GOD? Then, I was born again… and became a new creature in Christ…just as the bible says. The fruit, my fruit is totally different. I guess I am just asking why the attack on Christians being obiedient to what they read in the bible? Are we suppose to smoke? Is not the body the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Are we suppose to gamble? Ones good luck is at the misfortune of allot of others. Are we suppose to dance as we know dance now? All that dance on much music and MTV look more like sex acts…does it cause one to lust? which is a sin…are we suppose to drink? If so, how much? The bible says that “drunkards” will not see the Kingdom of God".

The Bible does preach on seperation of the world. Something that was totally unknown to me. In fact, as a Catholic…I knew nothing what the Bible really preached.

I look forward to any replys.

ps…I am new at this, my first posting.

 

[Ahimsa]

Are you Catholic now?

 

[brotherhrolf]

malachi_a_serva:

In fact, as a Catholic…I knew nothing what the Bible really preached.

I look forward to any replys.

ps…I am new at this, my first posting.

I, for one, am quite tired of this taurine foecal matter that Catholics know nothing about what the Bible preaches. I was in a Catholic high school just after VII and we spent our entire junior and senior years in Religion classes going through the entire Plan of Salvation from Genesis to the Gospels. Hey, so that it is absolutely plain to you, it was a Catholic high school in the years 1967-1969. You insult me, sir, along with all my fellow Catholics. Ever read the Early Church Fathers? Ever studied history? I think not!

Let me ask you this…the most powerful force on the face of the Earth is the Eucharist. Were you really a Catholic, this would be the defining portion of your life. The fact that you make no mention of it tells me encyclopedic volumes.

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi there. In your “library” under “non-catholic groups” is the following statement:

"Their success is partly due to their discipline. For all their talk about the Catholic Church being “rule-laden,” there are perhaps no Christians who operate in a more regimented manner. Their rules—non-biblical rules, one might add—extend not just to religion and religious practices proper, but to facets of everyday life. Most people are familiar with their strictures on drinking, gambling, dancing, and smoking.

Fundamentalists also are intensely involved in their local congregations. Many people returning to the Catholic Church from Fundamentalism complain that as Fundamentalists they had no time or room for themselves; everything centered around the church. All their friends were members; all their social activities were staged by it. Not to attend Wednesday evening services (in addition to one or two services on Sunday), not to participate in the Bible studies and youth groups, not to dress and act like everyone else in the congregation—these immediately put one beyond the pale; and in a small church (few Fundamentalist churches have more than a hundred members) this meant being ostracized, a silent invitation to conform or to worship elsewhere.

Nevertheless, despite the criticism Fundamentalists sometimes receive, they do undertake the praiseworthy task of adhering to certain key Christian tenets in a society that has all too often forgotten about Christ. "

I am somewhat perplexed on the attack of being obiedient to the word of GOD, as it is in the Holy Bible. I do understand the viewpoint. I grew up and was raised Catholic. I went about my life as any other person in this world. I smoked, I drank alcohol, got drunk all the time, had sex outside of marriage with people I met in the bars…all these things I did with my Catholic friends…with Catholics and too Catholics (the sex part). How is that evidence of a Christian walk with GOD? Then, I was born again… and became a new creature in Christ…just as the bible says. The fruit, my fruit is totally different. I guess I am just asking why the attack on Christians being obiedient to what they read in the bible? Are we suppose to smoke? Is not the body the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Are we suppose to gamble? Ones good luck is at the misfortune of allot of others. Are we suppose to dance as we know dance now? All that dance on much music and MTV look more like sex acts…does it cause one to lust? which is a sin…are we suppose to drink? If so, how much? The bible says that “drunkards” will not see the Kingdom of God".

The Bible does preach on seperation of the world. Something that was totally unknown to me. In fact, as a Catholic…I knew nothing what the Bible really preached.

I look forward to any replys.

ps…I am new at this, my first posting.

Fundamentalists do not adhere to the word of God. They often claim to follow the bible but they make up rules that are not in the bible.

Alcohol drinking is a prime example. First let me say that if for some reason an individual wishes to abstain that is, of course, all right. When I was Baptists though, the church that I attended claimed that drinking alcohol was against the bible. There are of course those that don’t drink because they believe it is a bad witness to do so, but drinking alcohol is only a bad witness if you think that drinking alcohol is bad. As Jesus drank, and was even accused of being a wine biber, alcohol drinking can not be a sin.

As far as the Catholics that you knew, well, I have known Baptist that engaged in equally reprehensible actions. I don’t judge the Baptist church itself by these people. That would be foolish and immature of me.

 

[deb1]

Ahimsa:

Are you Catholic now?

He says ‘when I *was *a Catholic’ . That sounds like a past belief to me.

 

[Atreyu]

malachi_a_serva:

I am somewhat perplexed on the attack of being obiedient to the word of GOD, as it is in the Holy Bible. I do understand the viewpoint. I grew up and was raised Catholic. I went about my life as any other person in this world. I smoked, I drank alcohol, got drunk all the time, had sex outside of marriage with people I met in the bars…all these things I did with my Catholic friends…with Catholics and too Catholics (the sex part). How is that evidence of a Christian walk with GOD? Then, I was born again… and became a new creature in Christ…just as the bible says. The fruit, my fruit is totally different. I guess I am just asking why the attack on Christians being obiedient to what they read in the bible? Are we suppose to smoke? Is not the body the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Are we suppose to gamble? Ones good luck is at the misfortune of allot of others. Are we suppose to dance as we know dance now? All that dance on much music and MTV look more like sex acts…does it cause one to lust? which is a sin…are we suppose to drink? If so, how much? The bible says that “drunkards” will not see the Kingdom of God".

The Bible does preach on seperation of the world. Something that was totally unknown to me. In fact, as a Catholic…I knew nothing what the Bible really preached.

Indeed, it seems you knew nothing of what the Catholic Church really preached, either. You say, “How is that evidence of a Christian walk with GOD?” and I say, it is not. But you can hardly say that you were a practicing Catholic, can you? Let me ask you, did you ever go to Confession? Did you go to mass every Sunday? If you did commit one of these sins you described, then did you go to Confession before receiving Communion? And at this Confession, were you truly repentant of your sins? When you took Communion, did you understand that as the true, literal Body of Christ?

If you cannot answer yes to every single one of these questions, then you were not a faithful Catholic. You would fit into the category that I used to be in: the category of Catholics In Name Only (CINO). You and I both had similar experiences as CINO’s, then you became a fundamentalist and I became a faithful Catholic. I believe that we are both in a much better position now than we were… agreed?

Now to address your questions on morality. Where in the Bible does it say that smoking is forbidden? Where in the Bible does it say that drinking is forbidden? Where in the Bible does it say that gambling is forbidden? If the Bible does not address these issues, then any attempts to make rules about them is necessarily extra-Biblical. I have no problem with things being extra-Biblical, do you? As a fundamentalist, aren’t you required to form your doctrine from the Bible alone? I don’t really understand how you could do both.

I would like to say one further thing on gambling. Every single day, every single person in the world gambles. It is an inescapable thing. You gamble when you drive (a maniac drunk-driver could plow into you), you gamble when you sip a cup of coffee (it could be too hot and you could burn yourself), you gamble when you walk along a beach (a freak wave could hit you)! Therefore it is impossible to forbid gambling entirely. But you think we should prohibit gambling that is to do with stakes of money only. Well in business today, people make these kinds of gambles every single day as well. Every single decision a business executive makes could have implications for his employees. A bad decision today could cause him to have to fire 100 employees tomorrow. But the executive has to make these decisions, or the employees won’t have jobs anyway! I don’t understand how you could say that this is ok, but my poker game last night (with stakes of $5 each) was not.

Of course, excessive gambling is bad, as is excessive drinking and excessive smoking. But the sin (as I see it) is excess, not the act itself. This is my opinion, and I hold that of course you are entitled to your own! God bless.

 

[brotherhrolf]

deb1:

He says ‘when I *was *a Catholic’ . That sounds like a past belief to me.

He was never Catholic. To be Catholic is to know and recognize the subliime gift Our Lord gave us in the Eucharist.

 

[edward_george]

Most people are familiar with their strictures on drinking, gambling, dancing, and smoking.

The thing is, none of these things is forbidden by Scripture. Excesses of them are.

In Paul’s second letter to Timothy, he says “Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake, and thy frequent infirmities.” Nothing wrong with a little wine, especially if it is for medicinal purposes. Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding at Cana, something he wouldn’t have done if he had disapproved entirely of its use. (John 2:1-10).

The only place a reference to gambling can be found in the New Testament (at least that I could find, correct me if I’m wrong) is when the centurions cast lots for Jesus’s garment. Nowhere is gambling condemned or condoned. For a good Catholic take on gambling, check out newadvent.org/cathen/06375b.htm

Dancing is mentioned in numerous places in the Old Testament. So long as dancing is not an occasion to sin (as you said–dancing that would cause another to lust) there is nothing at all wrong with it.

Smoking is nowhere condemned in Scripture either.

These rules that Mr. Keating speaks of that some fundamentalist groups seem to impose are extra-biblical, in that they aren’t found on the face of Scripture. This proves to be a contradiction to the fundamentalist viewpoint that all doctrine is found explicitly on the face of Scripture. People such as these impose rules that aren’t specifically found in Scripture, yet condemn the Catholic Church for its customs and traditions, no matter how good and holy they are.

I am somewhat perplexed on the attack of being obiedient to the word of GOD, as it is in the Holy Bible.

Mr. Keating isn’t attacking obedience to the word of God, and if you read any number of his articles you’ll see that attacking obedience to the word of God would be extremely out of character for him, or for any level-headed Catholic apologist for that matter.

The Bible does preach on seperation of the world. Something that was totally unknown to me. In fact, as a Catholic…I knew nothing what the Bible really preached.

Something unknown to you, but perhaps not the Church. Check out the Catechism and see what she teaches. I am a Catholic, and I, as many other Catholics, know quite a bit about what the Bible teaches.

Pax tecum
-ACEGC

 

[mastda]

malachi_a_serva:

I am somewhat perplexed on the attack of being obiedient to the word of GOD, as it is in the Holy Bible. I do understand the viewpoint. I grew up and was raised Catholic. I went about my life as any other person in this world. I smoked, I drank alcohol, got drunk all the time, had sex outside of marriage with people I met in the bars…all these things I did with my Catholic friends…with Catholics and too Catholics (the sex part). How is that evidence of a Christian walk with GOD? Then, I was born again… and became a new creature in Christ…just as the bible says. The fruit, my fruit is totally different. I guess I am just asking why the attack on Christians being obiedient to what they read in the bible? Are we suppose to smoke? Is not the body the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Are we suppose to gamble? Ones good luck is at the misfortune of allot of others. Are we suppose to dance as we know dance now? All that dance on much music and MTV look more like sex acts…does it cause one to lust? which is a sin…are we suppose to drink? If so, how much? The bible says that “drunkards” will not see the Kingdom of God".

So am I to understand that you think that the teenagers and early twenties of “Born Again Fundamentalists” do not smoke pot, cuss, dance crazy and have pre marital sex? Also how do you know the dances on MTV look like sex acts. Did someone tell you or did you watch?

I think the moderators and others on this forum will do a great job in answering your questions and concerns. However I might want to do a better job in delivering your question next time as you did come out swinging.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hi, just me again,…I wanted to comment on this comment as well on the web-site:

“they had no time or room for themselves; everything centered around the church”…

Are we not to put “God” first" Is that not commanded of his childeren? I would like to know where it says that a person is or can expect, “time or room for themselves”?

Good thing Jesus didn’t put his will before his fathers. Or we would all be in trouble. I suppose Paul should have put “his time and room for himself”…instead of preaching the Gospel. He and the rest of the Apostles could have saved themselves allot of pain, misery and horrible death if they just would have put themselves first.

I just want to know in what part of accepting Jesus as our “Lord” states that that means we are first?

Matthew 7 21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the ones who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we … Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me you evildoers.’

 

[Atreyu]

I thought his question was fine. I also have a problem with “freak” dancing. It doesn’t cause me to lust to watch it, but there’s no way I would ever do it, not now anyway. Back when I was a CINO, I did it a couple of times and even then I didn’t like the lustful effect it had on me! I would say that this type of dancing is not really appropriate for faithful Catholics, in my opinion.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hello. Pardon me if I sound “attacking”. That is not my intent. Quite the opposite, defensive when I read the part on Fundamentalist.

Yes, I went to church/mass a minimum of once a week. I had the sacraments. My point is…I was not “born again”.

I cannot explain it other than what happened to me when it did/I was. Being “Catholic”, in my human effort…did not make me presentable as a “Christian”.

I was married…to a Catholic. She had an affair with her boss. I went to my priest for guidance. He said to me, “sh_t happens”…no kidding. Exact quote. Later I was informed that if I paid $1,500 I could have an anullment.

My search began…

I went to a Catholic school (1-12)…never did anyone ever recommend we read the bible on our own". I had a nun tell me to mind my own business why our religion teacher smoked. And yes, this is not directly forbidden in scripture, but the bible presents principals to follow as well, and yes, not treating the Temple of the Holy Spirt as such would be a sin.

I could prove from scripture this or that but that was not my point. My point was in the quotes I used, Fundamentalists were being frowned upon because of our obedience. Forgive my spelling mistakes.

My point was…me and my friends were “good to go” sort of speak…cause we were Catholics. We viewed the Protestants as the “non religious ones”.

My experience in all my life, with all my relatives…

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi, just me again,…I wanted to comment on this comment as well on the web-site:

“they had no time or room for themselves; everything centered around the church”…

Are we not to put “God” first" Is that not commanded of his childeren? I would like to know where it says that a person is or can expect, “time or room for themselves”?

Good thing Jesus didn’t put his will before his fathers. Or we would all be in trouble. I suppose Paul should have put “his time and room for himself”…instead of preaching the Gospel. He and the rest of the Apostles could have saved themselves allot of pain, misery and horrible death if they just would have put themselves first.

I just want to know in what part of accepting Jesus as our “Lord” states that that means we are first?

Matthew 7 21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the ones who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we … Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Depart from me you evildoers.’

I welcome you to these forums and I look forward to a lively exchange with you. At the same time, your post has made me so happy that I am not a fundamentalist anymore.

I remember that I did not want to go to Wednesday service. No reason, I just didn’t want to attend three times a week, plus all the extra social functions that we had. ONe day I was cornered by my pastor and three or four ladies of my church who basically upbraided me and accused me of not being spiritual enough simply because I didn’t want to go to Wednesday service.

In order to actually hear God, I think that we need time alone. I, also think that everyday mundane activities such as cuddling up together with your family and watching a Christmas show can be a type of prayer. You don’t get this if you are surronded nonstop by people doing church activities.

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

Yes, I went to church/mass a minimum of once a week. I had the sacraments. My point is…I was not “born again”.

…

Why were you taking communion, if you were doing activities such as getting drunk, having premarital sex etc.?

You were born again when you were baptised.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Atreyu…thank you for your comment…

The end of my second last post was cut off…here it is:

Luke 6:46

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord’ but not do what I command?”

1John 2:3-4

"The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, “I know him”, but does not keep his commandements is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What are we here for, why were we created? To have a "wonderful life for ourselves? The answer to that explains everything.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I gues what I am saying is now the Holy Spirt controls my life. That I never had before. Born again at Baptism…I do not believe so.

I believe one truly needs to repent and ask Jesus into their heart as their Lord and savior. My point being at a pre determined, schedule ritual like confirmation, the sincerity might not be their.

 

[OptimusPrimefan]

Hi Malachi…

Catholic as well as other Christians are all called to conversion. The moment when we faithfully give our wholehearted ‘Yes’ to God. Our Evangelical brothers and sisters call it being ‘Born Again.’ As babies, we are born again in Baptism with the Sacrement acting independantely of our will. Through Christ’s death and Ressurection the whole world is redeemed. But that doesn’t mean to say that our free will is impaired. On the contrary, we are given a new life in Christ, the same way a child receives a birthday present. We must however put the present to good use.

As far as knowing the Bible from a Catholic perspective; here’s one for you, the Mass is the entire Book of Revelation entering time and space. It is nothing short of extraordinary! The Wedding feast of the Lamb! I was raised Catholic too, but didn’t appreciate it because my will was not conformed to God, not because of the errors of the Catholic Church, I just wasn’t listening.

God Bless you in your quest for truth, I am confidant you will find it, cause the Church is the only institution protecting and keeping Truth. Remember it was the Church through the Holy Spirit who canonized the 27 books we call the New Testament and it is the Church who authentically interprets them!

God bless…
OptimusPimefan

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I can’t wait to go to church…Sunday’s, Wednesday, Tuesdays for soul winning door to door…I find it like recharging my battery in this evil, sinful world.

I find the catholic church does not distinguish itself apart from the world enough. Eg…on the top of the page that I am currently typing on has a sign for “annual Christmas sale save 10- 25% storewide”…then it has a “santa claus”.

I find that has nothing to do with the birth of our savior. I think God would find it offensive as well. That we have a fictious individual that supposedly brings us gifts…to represent the real gift that Jesus brought us.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

In my search I found these similarities. Now please do not get upset, however they are true:

Catholic Church: only entity able to interpret scripture
Jehovah’s Witnesses: their Watchtower organization the only entity to interpret scripture

Catholic Church: the one true church, outside of it is no salvation.
JW’s: the one true church, outside of it is no salvation

Catholic Church: Has their own translation of the bible
JW’s: has their own translation of the bible.

We all know the errors in translation of the Watch Tower’s Bible. Here is one that upset me when I was thinking of returning to Catholicism. In the Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew 5 32:

But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

However, the new Catholic Bible (The New American Bible) renders it: “But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful)causes her…”

Now to me this is a prime example of a translation trying to translate/fit their own doctrine.

How does one translate " porniea" - hense “fornication” as “unless the marriage is unlawful”?

To me this and the things above enlightened me to allot.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

In response to Edward George, I guess what I meant when I said I did not know of seperation of the world was…that in 20 years…the church never told me I needed to be seperate. That is my point. Never heard of it ever…yet I attended catholic school for 12 years and went to church a minimum of once a week (in my teens twice a week)…never heard it preached.

Until I read it for myself.