Fundamentalism

[edward_george]

Where do I begin…

In my search I found these similarities. Now please do not get upset, however they are true:

Hmmm…okay let’s do this.

Fundamentalists: Worship in a building
Ancient Pagans: Worship in a building

Fundamentalists: Use rings in marriage
Ancient Pagans: Use rings in marriage

Fundamentalists: Have a set of sacred writings
Ancient Pagans: Have a set of sacred writings

Fundamentalists: Worship a deity
Ancient Pagans: Worship a deity

Does this mean that modern Fundamentalists are pagan? No. It merely means that there are similarities between modern Fundamentalists and Ancient Pagans. Your logic fails here. Correlation does not prove causation.

If you read little bits and pieces of the Bible, you get part of the picture. Truth is like a puzzle–you can draw all sorts of conclusions about a few pieces here and there, but once you take it all in at once you have a complete and beautiful picture.

If we conclude that Jesus established a church, that’s one piece. If we conclude that Jesus’s church is the pillar and foundation of truth, that’s another. If we look at the whole picture presented by both Sacred Scripture and first-century writings like the Didache (available at New Advent) and others that provide a look at the first century Christians, we see that there is only one church that believes the same way as the first-century Christians. Furthermore, if we look at history, we see only one church that has maintained those beliefs throughout history, never changing them, never deviating from them. From time to time, things were more clearly defined, but never has the Church contradicted itself. Sure, you can take bits and pieces of the Bible and sling them all day long. Never will you find Scripture that defeats any premise of the Catholic Church. Take verses out of context, misinterpret them, and it may seem like you have disproved some part of Catholicism. But understood properly, it can’t be done.

I will answer you on the NAB/DRB inconsistency in the morning. I need sleep…have a Calc final tomorrow.

Pax Tecum
-ACEGC

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hi Edward_George.

My point being that the similarities all go to the root of why it is difficult to “test” other things not given by their own church. I agree, having similarities itself proves nothing. It is the type of similarities I was pointing out.

With these things in place, to dare venture out to examine for oneself, goes againt what the “true church” teaches…so it is difficult to see it from the other perspective.

The threat of Hell, makes me seek a savior.

The threat of going outside the one true church…would make me not seek anything else…for fear stops it.

 

[Atreyu]

Malachi there is a lot to respond to in all of your posts, forgive me if I miss one (or several). Perhaps from now on you could make a new thread for each single issue, so that we can fully discuss each issue without getting distracted? But I will try to address some of your questions.

First of all, Santa Claus is not fictitious! The story of Santa Claus is based on the life of Saint Nicholas, whom you can read about (if you wish) at the hopefully unbiased Wikipedia. But of course you are right to denounce any Christian who treats Christmas as purely a commercial venture. Christmas is about the birth of our Lord and should always be recognised as such, first and foremost.

As to the similiarities you see between Catholics and JW’s, well I don’t think you’re really helping your thesis that Catholics are wrong (if indeed, this is your point). Catholics believe that in the Catholic Church we contain the fulness of Truth; but that is not to say that other religions do not contain any Truth. Indeed, every religion in the world contains varying amounts of the Truth as it were. Saying that Catholics share doctrine with any other religion is entirely irrelevent. One thing I would like to point out, is that you might not understand the Church’s teaching on “no salvation outside the Catholic Church”. As such, I invite you to read about it in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which you can take to be the reliable teaching of the Catholic Church. Read about salvation outside of the Church here (846-848).

As to the issue of translations of the Bible, I put it to you that every English translation of the Bible is lacking in clarity, and hence there will always be new translations. There is always a give and take in translating the Bible, between making it easy to understand and read, and making it true to the original writing. Noone will ever get it completely correct, which is why the study of the original Scriptures is so important and will never become redundant.

I think I will leave it at there for now, as other people are better qualified to answer your questions than I am. But I would like to leave you with one last comment. So many people believe that the Catholic Church believes in things that she does not believe in, even people here at the forums get it wrong (especially someone like myself!). And so it is very important that we discuss the actual teaching of the Catholic Church, as opposed to caricatures of the Catholic Church. The link I gave above to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CC) is an invaluable resource in such discussions. It is not an infallible document, but you can take everything in there to reliably be the teaching of the CC. Therefore, if you ever want to find out for yourself what the CC actually teaches on a particular subject, this should be your first port-of-call. If there is something in the Catechism that you do not understand or you would simply like to discuss it, then feel free to ask here! God bless.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I just read you were going to bed. God night and good luck on your test.

One thing that does bother me about “Fundamentalism” is some of their premise that Catholics are not Christians…I am seeking resolution on that issue myself…

Anyway, I accept all who accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior as brother and/or sisters in Christ.

So with that, good night brother.

 

[NotWorthy]

malachi_a_serva:

In response to Edward George, I guess what I meant when I said I did not know of seperation of the world was…that in 20 years…the church never told me I needed to be seperate. That is my point. Never heard of it ever…yet I attended catholic school for 12 years and went to church a minimum of once a week (in my teens twice a week)…never heard it preached.

Until I read it for myself.

Malachi, I’m sorry, but I’ve got to throw a flag on this one.

Catholic at one time? Don’t believe it.
Catholic School 12 years? Nope.
All the rest of it? Not buying that either.

Notworthy

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Thank you Atreyu.

Me being new to “threads”…I am not up on everything like making new threads etc…

Thank you everyone for your patience and understanding.

 

[Atreyu]

NotWorthy are you suggesting that it is impossible for someone to be improperly catechised (um, is that a word?) from being in the situation the OP describes?

Not to suggest that Malachi is lying, I think that we, as Catholics here at this board, should always take people at face-value. If they are lying, then the moderators will figure it out eventually and take any action needed. Personally I don’t see anything wrong with what Malachi has said so far, and indeed as a fundamentalist he is certainly entitled to a right-of-reply to the fundamentalist document in the library here at Catholic Answers! We Catholics go on so much about how people attack our Church and don’t let us respond, how about we give others the same opportunity?

What is important for us is the way we act, not how other people act. If they lie, then how does that affect us? It is much more important that we treat them with charity and respect than that we call them out in a lie, even if they are lying. I play a lot of online games and I see people accusing others of “hacking” and cheating all the time. Personally I don’t even care if people cheat! What I care about is my reputation and hence I never accuse anyone of cheating! The situation here is the same. Whether or not Malachi is lying is irrelevant. What matters is how we treat him.

/rant.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Notworthy, why would you call me a lier?

What I say is the truth. I am just trying to explain my experiences with why I am a fundamentalist.

Raised Catholic. Received all the sacrements that was required. Read the bible on my own will wnen I was 11…not at the recommendation of my parish or priest.

Married Catholic. Had a catholic wife commit adultery. Had a priest tell me “sh_t happens” those are his exact words to me when I came to see him on the issue. He offered nothing other than somethings are outside your control. Later told me $1500 to get marriage annulled.

In a time when I needed my priest, my church, I was let down. I started searching. Looked upon myself as a non-denominational Christian.

Became “born again”…I experienced something I do not think most “non born again belivers” can understand.

Just trying to explain.

 

[JaneFrances]

Hi Malachi!

I have a friend whose entire experience of marriage is completely distorted and apart from God’s intention for the covenantal union of man and woman. Both sets of grandparents are divorced. Her parents had a dysfunctional marriage. Adultery, abuse, etc. Her parents are divorced. Her opinion of marriage is that it is useless and, in fact, quite detremental to relationships. This opinion of marriage that she strongly holds is entirely based on her experience.

Is her perspective a correct one? Is marriage wrong and useless?

Now, fade out and focus on you. . .

You have had really bad advice from some Catholics (I would expect not all). You have experienced sinful behaviors with some Catholics. You have witnessed abuse and ignorance from some Catholics. And now your opinion of Catholicism is that it is somehow useless to you and even maybe detremental to your relationship with the Lord. Am I on target here?

I’m sure you see the correlation.

As for your experience:

malachi_a_serva:

I gues what I am saying is now the Holy Spirt controls my life. That I never had before. Born again at Baptism…I do not believe so.

I believe one truly needs to repent and ask Jesus into their heart as their Lord and savior. My point being at a pre determined, schedule ritual like confirmation, the sincerity might not be their.

You say that you recieved all your sacraments as a Catholic and yet you also say that you believe you only need to repent and ask Jesus into your heart to be born again. Now, I’m confused.

If you have recieved the sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession), for example, then certainly you must remember that you were–at least, by your definition–“born again” during that sacrament. If you really understood it, that is. After all, if you went into the confessional and truly confessed your sins, repented of them, and asked Christ for his forgiveness, isn’t that the same as your Protestant definition of re-birth?

Now, as for your assertion that you are not “born again” at Baptism. . .

“Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water adn the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

“But Peter said to them: 'Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission fo your sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:38

“Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.” Acts 22:16

“At that time, a few persons, eight in all, escaped in the ark through water. You are now saved by a baptismal bath which corresponds to this exactly.” 1 Peter 3:20-21

Biblically speaking, how is that you aren’t “born again” at Baptism?

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I guess my biggest thing is I looked at my life…and everyone I knew that was “catholic”. No one put The Lord first.(my experience).

I now know and enjoy nothing but.

I recall questions I asked my religion teacher (religion 21 if I recall correctly - grade 11)…whom was a nun (not in her habit, plain clothed)…were responded to as if I were “insolent” (is that a word),…I remember her treating questions to clarify points, positions etc…as being just that. Were kept quite for the most part unless we wanted problems.

 

[NotWorthy]

Malachi, all I see is someone who has spent too much time on anti-catholic web-sites. If I’m wrong, then I sincerely apologize, for I’ve done nothing more than validate your opinion of most (if not all) Catholics. I don’t think so, though.

For Atreyu (who I thought had gone to bed) and others that think you are truly searching for answers, I’ll leave this thread to them. I’m sorry if I offended anyone else.

Take Care,

Notworthy

 

[Atreyu]

No, it was Edward George that was going to bed. It’s only 4:20 pm here, so it would be a bit early for me!

Malachi the Church is full of sinners. But every week at mass we ask God to judge us not by our sins but by the faith of our Church. I ask you to do the same

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Just to prove to the doubts…
Here is how I started confession, if I recall:

"Father forgive me for I have sinned,…It has been …since my last confession…

I use to enjoy “face to face” confession as I truly did take it seriously. As oppose to having that thing between myself and the priest. I wanted nothing hiding my embaresment of the sins I commited.

I never heard of “born again” while I was a practicing Catholic.

I just went and visited my brother 10 months ago (he lives in another country)…he doesn’t even believe in Jesus as the son of God, nor in GOD.

How can that be I said, we all went through the same experience…church together, sacraments when appropriate…

To me the Church is missing something evidently. How can he, a raised, experienced the sacraments, be where he is today in his journey. Refusing Jesus as his savior. Not believing in God. Me…needing to fond another denomination in order to have “christian behavior”.

Forgice the typos.

Honestly, Catholicism must have come a long way…as evident in these boards.

My mother goes to Mass everday…(when she can). Everyday. She is retired.

She knows nothing of the bible. We cannot talk nor communicat on spiritual matters. I gave her two copis of the bible (NIV and the catholic NAB)…in hope she would read. Apparently she is/has.

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

Just to prove to the doubts…
Here is how I started confession, if I recall:

"Father forgive me for I have sinned,…It has been …since my last confession…

I use to enjoy “face to face” confession as I truly did take it seriously. As oppose to having that thing between myself and the priest. I wanted nothing hiding my embaresment of the sins I commited.

I never heard of “born again” while I was a practicing Catholic.

I just went and visited my brother 10 months ago (he lives in another country)…he doesn’t even believe in Jesus as the son of God, nor in GOD.

How can that be I said, we all went through the same experience…church together, sacraments when appropriate…

To me the Church is missing something evidently. How can he, a raised, experienced the sacraments, be where he is today in his journey. Refusing Jesus as his savior. Not believing in God. Me…needing to fond another denomination in order to have “christian behavior”.

Forgice the typos.

Honestly, Catholicism must have come a long way…as evident in these boards.

My mother goes to Mass everday…(when she can). Everyday. She is retired.

She knows nothing of the bible. We cannot talk nor communicat on spiritual matters. I gave her two copis of the bible (NIV and the catholic NAB)…in hope she would read. Apparently she is/has.

I mean no disrespect to your mom, but she is apparently not paying attention during mass. There are three seperate scripture reading during the mass. In three years time, if you attend church everyday, you will have gone through the entire bible.

I am supposed to be in bed also, but I can’t sleep.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I will admit that when I became, “born again” and prayed to GOD where I should worship…I went to many differnet churches. Ended where I did. I was surprised and shocked to find they did not view Catholics as Christians (no news to you as I gather from other threads/boards)…this surprised me.

I guess with my experiences, I understood it…I still struggle with it and have not decided on my personal opinion. One denotes to be a Christian they need to be baptised etc…I believe scripture states that until one is born again, they are not “Christians” at all…and I guess this is the position from a fundamentalist position.

I could receipt scripture to to validate my position (in Matthew water referring to human birth…in Acts…Paul saying he is not here to baptise but to preach the gospel…he could not even remember whom he baptised)…etc…etc…

Oringinal I started this post in response to what I read about fundamentalists.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Is there a spell check on this?

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

"Father forgive me for I have sinned,…It has been …since my last confession…

I am not doubting what you say, but I haven’t been to my first confession yet, and I have heard this from television. You still haven’t answered how you were able to commit serious sin and still take communion. Didn’t you know this was wrong?

.

I just went and visited my brother 10 months ago (he lives in another country)…he doesn’t even believe in Jesus as the son of God, nor in GOD.

How can that be I said, we all went through the same experience…church together, sacraments when appropriate…

To me the Church is missing something evidently. How can he, a raised, experienced the sacraments, be where he is today in his journey. Refusing Jesus as his savior. Not believing in God. Me…needing to fond another denomination in order to have “christian behavior”.

.

Oh my goodness, do you really believe that people who grow up in your church never fall away?

Usually we do a seperate issue on each thread, it makes it easier to debate. The term ‘christian behavior’ is covers a wide range of behavior. If you could start a thread on each activity that you feel is christian behavior then it would be easier to discuss both for us and yourself. For example one thread could be titled “Do Catholics think alcohol drinking is a sin.” The next could be, “Do Catholics think smoking is a sin.” etc.

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

Is there a spell check on this?

sadly, no.:crying: And those of us that are poor spellers are forced to torture those that are good spellers. Now tell me that isn’t a sin. There are dictionaries on the net that can help you spell.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I would like to know anywhere on TV where someone had confession “face to face”. That should settle it.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

I guess my position is:

where I worship now…people are alive for Christ. They put him first and foremost…etc…etc…

I never experienced that in my catholic upbringing.

Regardless of docturnal positions.

The fruit of the spirit.