Fundamentalism

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malachi_a_serva:
Just to prove to the doubts…
Here is how I started confession, if I recall:

"Father forgive me for I have sinned,…It has been …since my last confession…

I use to enjoy “face to face” confession as I truly did take it seriously. As oppose to having that thing between myself and the priest. I wanted nothing hiding my embaresment of the sins I commited.

I never heard of “born again” while I was a practicing Catholic.

I just went and visited my brother 10 months ago (he lives in another country)…he doesn’t even believe in Jesus as the son of God, nor in GOD.

How can that be I said, we all went through the same experience…church together, sacraments when appropriate…

To me the Church is missing something evidently. How can he, a raised, experienced the sacraments, be where he is today in his journey. Refusing Jesus as his savior. Not believing in God. Me…needing to fond another denomination in order to have “christian behavior”.

Forgice the typos.

Honestly, Catholicism must have come a long way…as evident in these boards.

My mother goes to Mass everday…(when she can). Everyday. She is retired.

She knows nothing of the bible. We cannot talk nor communicat on spiritual matters. I gave her two copis of the bible (NIV and the catholic NAB)…in hope she would read. Apparently she is/has.
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Hi Again Malachi. . .

Once again you have me stumped. How is it that you went to confession. . .experienced the humility of confessing your sins. . .asked God for fogiveness. . .and still you claim that you were not “born again” until you found your niche in a non-denominational church?

And while I’ll leave the judgement of your mother and your brother’s hearts up to the Lord. . .I wonder why it is if you truly attended and payed attention in Mass for, say, 12 years (at least while you were in school) on a weekly basis that you never heard of being “born again”? After all, as it has been pointed out, at every single Mass we hear the Word proclaimed and at least once every 3 years (more often, if you attend daily Mass) you hear the gospel of St. John, which I’m sure you are aware is precisely where we get the terminology “born again”.

Quite enigmatic.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
I would like to know anywhere on TV where someone had confession “face to face”. That should settle it.
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They show confession all the time in movies and on tv. That is why I know the 'Forgive me Father for I have sinned…" words, because that is how they usually show it on tv. As I am still in RCIA, I have not made my first confession nor have I been told what to say. I don’t even know if the above words are correct or are a creation of television and movies.

Ah, I do have an example. I love X-Files. In one program Scully went into the confession booth and said those words to the priest.

I am not accusing you of lying, just saying that most people, even Atheists, know the above phrase.
 
While commiting these sins I was not attending church. Any church. The comments from the priest “put me off” church.

Never did I hear that “drunkards” should not inherit the Kingdom of God. (Gal 5). That one I plead ignorance on. As an egample, all the grown ups while I was growing up got drunk at Chrisitmas time, familly get togethers etc…

The sex…I was wounded. All happened while “drunk”. I am not saying that I believe this is OK from a catholic position. Just that most of the memorable individuals I had encounters with were catholics as well.

I cannot even think of such things now.
 
My face to face confessions never happened in the coffessional. Because there was that bearer. I would go to the priest in the room adjacet to where he goers into his side of the confessional.

Not saying you don’t belive me, just that in all my years of watching TV, never did I ever see a “face to face” confession. All done in the confessional…with that bearer that has holes and you can kinda see through.
 
It’s also mentioned in the movie, Constantine, although I can’t remember if it’s face to face or if they have the curtain thing in-between. And I thought it was, “bless me father, for I have sinned”…?
 
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malachi_a_serva:
While commiting these sins I was not attending church. Any church. The comments from the priest “put me off” church.

Never did I hear that “drunkards” should not inherit the Kingdom of God. (Gal 5). That one I plead ignorance on. As an egample, all the grown ups while I was growing up got drunk at Chrisitmas time, familly get togethers etc…

The sex…I was wounded. All happened while “drunk”. I am not saying that I believe this is OK from a catholic position. Just that most of the memorable individuals I had encounters with were catholics as well.

I cannot even think of such things now.
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I am in the south. Most people in the south are Protestant, and the majority of my friends were Baptists. In fact most were fairly religious, went to church on Sunday, read the bible etc. The ones that I had my sexual experiences with and drank were not the Catholics but the Baptist children. This isn’t to say that Baptist are missing the Lord or that their children are not saved. It is to say that because most of my friends were baptist and that those are the ones that I most noticed who were sinning.
 
Hey Malachi,

Still waiting for a couple of answers. . .I believe you were Catholic. Now, could you answer my questions?
 
I stand corrected, it is “Bless me father for I have sinned”…it has been many years…

Now I confess my sins directly to GOD.

deb1, you have a good point. Perhaps me being “with catholics”…who were sinning…explains my view that I summise of the whole.

I want to believe Catholics to be Chrisitian. My heart has been moved in this direction tonight.

I thank everyone for their expression and view point.
 
Malachi, personally I think that the single greatest problem with the Catholic Church today, is that there are so many people who fit into that category that I mentioned above, Catholic In Name Only. People such as yourself and myself who were incorrectly catechised as young Catholics, who fall away from the Church and believe that the Church teaches things different to that which she actually teaches. But every single person should be able to find out about the Catholic Church, and what she teaches. All you need to do is ask. With the advent of the internet, everything you need to know about the Catholic Church is online, or you could ask and people can tell you some good books to read. It is my sincere hope that the next generation of Catholics will be better educated in the Bible and in the teaching of the Church, so much so that the CINO category will disappear.
 
One more thing, in confession we are confessing our sins directly to God. Do you remember the words the priest says in absolution?
 
Hello Jane Frances.

My Mother is truly “Catholic” as they come. I guess my critisim would be how can one really learn the bible in 10 minutes of reading each hour of mass. If most go once a week.

I receive at leat 3 hours on Sunday. About 1.5 hours on Wednesday. Plus my own…which is often.

Now in answer to your questions.

How is it that you went to confession. . .experienced the humility of confessing your sins. . .asked God for fogiveness. . .and still you claim that you were not “born again” until you found your niche in a non-denominational church?

I guess I compare my “rebirth” to that which happened to me later in life. It was nothing that I can compare during my ccatholic up bringing.

Lets be honest, most in mass recite things word for word out of habit…without even knowing what it says. It became habitual to respond in an approprite way and manner. The sign of the cross on the forhead, then lips, then heart…became mechanicall.

I thionk of the “Our Father”…which my protestant brothers find it comical I refer it as that. They refer to it as the Lords Prayer. Perhaps that is the formal title. I called it the Our Father.

You can’t just pick a line and say it. You have to start from the begining to get to where you want it.

How could priests that preach the word of GOD, molest alterboys?

I am stating that when attending church I listened etc…things to me were mechanical.

Perhaps it was referred to as “born from above” or perhaps it was “born again”…what I am trying to allude to is no matter if you hear it…etc…I believe one truly needs to “experience” it. Thus the “birn again fundamentailt” - Catholic differnces. I have experience something that I did not experince groing up in a catholic envirnment.
 
I have never heard of this terminoligy before. I will explore it.

“incorrectly catechised”
 
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malachi_a_serva:
I.

How could priests that preach the word of GOD, molest alterboys?

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catholicapologetics.net/apolo_49.htm

There have been Protestant molestations also. Any one in power is capable of abusing that power, be they Priest, Pastor, Rabbi, teacher, doctor or The President of the United States. The above site list some molestations by Protestant ministers. I have no idea why the media covers the priest molestations more then the Protestant ones.

The church is made up of humans, with human failings. You have to take that into account.

Also, you seem to be throwing everything and the Kitchen sink at us. Could you start a seperate thread on each of these issues?
 
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malachi_a_serva:
I receive at leat 3 hours on Sunday. About 1.5 hours on Wednesday. Plus my own…which is often.

I also read the Bible. Every Catholic should read the Bible. The fact that a lot don’t just goes to show that there are many ignorant Catholics. It doesn’t say that the Church doesn’t encourage reading the Bible. I have always been encouraged to read the Bible, when I have had discussions with members of the clergy.

Lets be honest, most in mass recite things word for word out of habit…without even knowing what it says. It became habitual to respond in an approprite way and manner. The sign of the cross on the forhead, then lips, then heart…became mechanicall.

For me, it is not mechanical. I understand your point, but everyone in mass should be really concentrating to what is going on; thinking about what everything means; and first and foremost: worshipping God. That is what the mass is for, to worship God.

How could priests that preach the word of GOD, molest alterboys?

This is another problem with the Catholic Church, but it is not just Catholics who do it. I saw an admittedly unreliable statistic that the percentage of clergy that molest children was much higher in Protestant denominations than in the CC. To me it doesn’t really matter; the point is that Protestant ministers do it too (it just doesn’t receive as much press). Again, I ask you to judge us not by our sins but by the faith of our Church.

I am stating that when attending church I listened etc…things to me were mechanical.

And this was a problem that should have been addressed. Did you ever ask anyone about it? Did you ever ask about where the mass comes from, about what the triple cross means, or why we genufluct on the right knee and not the left? You should have. And if you received a non-answer (such as from the teacher you described above), you could have asked somebody else. In an ideal world, everyone would be taught everything they need to know about the CC. But wouldn’t this still be mechanical? Wouldn’t it be better for you to ask the questions yourself, to do the research yourself and to get the answers, yourself? A lot of these questions can be answered simply by looking it up in the Catechism (and I hope you at least take a cursory glance at that link from my first post in this thread, to check out the Catechism).
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Sorry deb1.

My comment about the molestations was just to point out and perhaps explain in answer to Jane Frances comment about how I could sit through 12 years of masses and not hear “born again”
 
Hello Atreyu.

Actually, my criticisms of the church came more when I bought a catecism. I understand the “whys” of this and that. Just that my in my research, never agreed with it…when compared to “scripture only”.

I have a good book I read, “Borg again Fundamentalist, Born again Catholic”…where I read to defend catholic position etc…

I cannot reconcile allot of what the Catholic Church teaches to that of the Bible. And thus, whne the church and the pope are put on the same level as the bible, it is impossible to defend against it.

I then think…that the only reason “we” are all reading the bible today “is” because of the reformers who put their life on the line to get it translated in their own language and out of latin. Another problem I have reconciling the good intentions of the church with me being able to read the bible today.

Please do not take this as attacks, just stating my issues. I was never incouraged to read the bible growing up catholic. We were encouraged to read the catecism, but not the bible.

Perhaps it is different now, as the Church’s stand on savation by Grace alone. That changed. It no longer includes “works” but just “faith” so perhaps the position on reading the bible in private has changed as well.

I do appreciate your and everyones thoughts, so please do not take me as attacking. I know it is hard sometimes in a one way forum like this…no facial expressions or tomne…just words.
 
I think your knowledge of history is a bit… lacking. You said this:
I then think…that the only reason “we” are all reading the bible today “is” because of the reformers who put their life on the line to get it translated in their own language and out of latin. Another problem I have reconciling the good intentions of the church with me being able to read the bible today.
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I’m sorry, but this is complete rubbish. Then there was this:
Perhaps it is different now, as the Church’s stand on savation by Grace alone. That changed. It no longer includes “works” but just “faith” so perhaps the position on reading the bible in private has changed as well.
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The Church’s position has always been that of salvation by Grace alone. It has never changed. If you could prove that this very important doctrine (or indeed, any) doctrine of Catholicism has in fact changed, then I will convert today.

I would like to ask you a question. Go away and research it, then maybe start a new thread and we can discuss it. As a fundamentalist, you believe that all doctrine can be derived from the Bible. My question to you is, which books belong in the Bible? God bless and goodnight.
 
Thanks for the response, Malachi.

To continue the dialogue:

You say:
I guess my critisim would be how can one really learn the bible in 10 minutes of reading each hour of mass. If most go once a week.

I receive at leat 3 hours on Sunday. About 1.5 hours on Wednesday. Plus my own…which is often.

Me:
How absolutely wonderful that you get 3 hours of straight Biblical reading on Sunday alone! I have never heard of such a service.

As for your criticism. . .“how can one really learn the bible in 10 minutes of reading”. . .Interesting question. How do you suppose the early Christians learned the gospel? Did the early Christians sit for 3 hours on Sunday, 1.5 hours on Wednesdays, plus have personal reading time in order to learn the Bible? Did they even have the whole Bible at their fingertips for their own personal perusal?

You:
I guess I compare my “rebirth” to that which happened to me later in life. It was nothing that I can compare during my ccatholic up bringing.

Me:
I think what you are describing is what St. Paul refers to as the journey, the race, or the process by which we experience salvation through Christ. We, as Christians, are called to constant conversion. You claim that you weren’t “born again” during your Catholic upbringing because it didn’t compare to what you experienced as a Protestant. Yet, from my perspective, God has been working on you all along. In fact, I would predict that in time to come you will have more experiences that bring you even closer to Christ than you have been before, but I certainly wouldn’t think that nullifies your being “born again” through Baptism.

You:
Lets be honest, most in mass recite things word for word out of habit…without even knowing what it says. It became habitual to respond in an approprite way and manner. The sign of the cross on the forhead, then lips, then heart…became mechanicall.

Me:
Being totally honest, I don’t recall a time when I had “no idea” what I was saying in Mass. I suppose I may have been ignornant of the words I was saying as a very small child, but as a confirmed adult in the faith I always know what I’m saying. Now, do I always do it with the exact same vigor and zeal and emotion? Being totally honest, no. But, I’d suspect that your prayer life is the same. There are highs and lows. I bet you’ve given a good, loud “Amen” straight from the heart and other times that it was lesser in its spiritual intensity. Every single Christian is tempted into mechanics and mindless motion. . .It is our response to God’s grace calling us back to relationship that keeps us in the race, not that we never fall.

You:
How could priests that preach the word of GOD, molest alterboys?

Me:
How could Peter deny Christ 3 times during his passion and still preach the word of God?

You:
I am stating that when attending church I listened etc…things to me were mechanical.

Me:
Is it possible that your “mechanical” experience during your Catholic tenure was less about the Church and more about you? Is it possible that while you were Catholic, you were obedient in your actions (you went through all the right motions), but that you “recieved the grace of God in vain” (2 Cor. 6:1)? And now that you are a “born again” non-demoninationalist, you have chosen to open yourself up to God’s grace as never before? This seems to me to be the summation of your journey thus far. . .Could God be calling you back to the “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5) that you could not experience fully as a Catholic without the gift of grace that you now have accepted?

There’s a reason you’re here.
 
At the Council of Trent (1545-1563), the declarations of which are still in force, the Roman Catholic Church formally condemned the biblical doctrine of faith alone and grace alone. Consider the following declarations of Trent:

“If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

“If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
 
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