Fundamentalism

  • Thread starter Thread starter malachi_a_serva
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
I then think…that the only reason “we” are all reading the bible today “is” because of the reformers who put their life on the line to get it translated in their own language and out of latin.
Malachi,

Please do some research. . .You have said a great many things in this post that are quite inaccurate. Your “experience” isn’t the same thing as historical accuracy.

The Reformers were not the ones who first translated the Bible out of Latin. Do some good historical research.

And, as Atreyu has alluded to, your understanding of the Church’s historical doctrine of “sola gratia” (grace alone) is quite lacking.

Just these two points should take some time. . .Come back and talk to us when you have some facts.
 
Jane Frances

"Is it possible that your “mechanical” experience during your Catholic tenure was less about the Church and more about you? Is it possible that while you were Catholic, you were obedient in your actions (you went through all the right motions), but that you “recieved the grace of God in vain” (2 Cor. 6:1)? And now that you are a “born again” non-demoninationalist, you have chosen to open yourself up to God’s grace as never before? This seems to me to be the summation of your journey thus far. . .Could God be calling you back to the “obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5) that you could not experience fully as a Catholic without the gift of grace that you now have accepted?

There’s a reason you’re here."

You raise some good points. I will consider them and all the others I have been blessed to receive.

I do know that growing up Catholic…until at least 18. I wasn’t doing or trying anything in vain (from my perspective)…yet nothing that lasted. I will investigate more on the perspective you brought up. Moreso it had to do with “me” than the “church”.

Thank you for your counsel.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
At the Council of Trent (1545-1563), the declarations of which are still in force, the Roman Catholic Church formally condemned the biblical doctrine of faith alone and grace alone. Consider the following declarations of Trent:

“If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

“If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
This deserves its own thread, but to be clear, your quotation from Trent does not condemn the biblical doctrine of “grace alone.”

And the Bible condemns the Protestant doctrine of “faith alone”:

“You must perceive that a person is justified by his works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24)

Do some more work.
 
Not sure I follow, however, The Catholic Church then (to me) changes its position on “faith alone” with the “The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church” where it states, " “Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works”

This to me says Grace Alone. My prior posts states the opposite position.
 
OK, I see it. We have different definitions of “justification”.
 
Bible translation,…are you referring to Bede’s St. John, the great historian Anglo Saxon England (725 AD)? and then WYCLIF? (Writer and “reformer”, newadvent.org).

Luther? Tyndale? Coverdale?

I
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
Not sure I follow, however, The Catholic Church then (to me) changes its position on “faith alone” with the “The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church” where it states, " “Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works”

This to me says Grace Alone. My prior posts states the opposite position.
Malachi,

“To me” is the operative word here. There is no opposition between what is declared in Trent and what you have provided from “The Joint Declaration.” The language is different and perhaps you are more familiar and inclined to undertand the latter document, but it does not offer a “change” in doctrine as you have asserted.

And, before I sign off for this evening. . .

You:
I do know that growing up Catholic…until at least 18. I wasn’t doing or trying anything in vain (from my perspective)…yet nothing that lasted.

Me:
The nature of doing something “in vain” isn’t that you intentionally choose or “try” to do something “in vain.” The word “vain” implies a certain carelessness and emptiness, not something intended with effort. I would dare to presume that when you went through the empty motions of your Catholic experience, it wasn’t because you were “trying” to do it in vain. It was because it WAS in vain.

Another time. God Bless. God is working on you, still.
 
One last note…in response to the comment about Leaving the heart of my mother and brother in the Lord’s hands…

I guess the reason my mom never knew much of the bible is because all of her formative years and then adult years the mass was said in Latin.

This doesn’t equate to people being able to understand the bible, except if you understood Latin. Another proof that the church wanted it’s parishiners to only believe what they were told.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
I guess the reason my mom never knew much of the bible is because all of her formative years and then adult years the mass was said in Latin.
I’m too young to say this with any confidence, but didn’t they hand out missals in the vernacular language in the days before VII, so that one could understand what was going on?
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
One last note…in response to the comment about Leaving the heart of my mother and brother in the Lord’s hands…

I guess the reason my mom never knew much of the bible is because all of her formative years and then adult years the mass was said in Latin.

This doesn’t equate to people being able to understand the bible, except if you understood Latin. Another proof that the church wanted it’s parishiners to only believe what they were told.
As having attended many fundamentalists services, I can honestly say that they do not cover any more bible then we do, mostly they cover less. They simply take an hour to pick apart the particular reading that their church has chosen for the day.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
One last note…in response to the comment about Leaving the heart of my mother and brother in the Lord’s hands…

I guess the reason my mom never knew much of the bible is because all of her formative years and then adult years the mass was said in Latin.

This doesn’t equate to people being able to understand the bible, except if you understood Latin. Another proof that the church wanted it’s parishiners to only believe what they were told.
Good Morning Malachi,

Once again you have exhibited the version of Catholicism that is based entirely on your own “experience” and personal perspective and not on historical accuracy with an effort towards understanding.

The Mass having been said in Latin is not a good arguement for not having known Scripture. If, indeed, your mother is (as you say) “truly “Catholic” as they come,” then she would certainly have attended Mass with her Missal which provided a word by word English translation of what was being said in Latin. Now, perhaps she could not afford or, for some reason, was not given a Missal as a child and was unable to read along as most children did during the first part of this century. Even then, however, your pious mother had the opportunity to listen to the homily given after the readings from Scripture which, during this point in history, was dictated to be strictly pertaining to the Scriptures read at that particular Mass.

And from a historical perspective, the whole reason that the Mass was said in Latin for so many years was precisely because it was the dominant language that the illiterate population understood. Latin was chosen for its universiality. Once, however, that language had past its time of mass consumption, the Churh saw it in the best interest of the faithful to allow the Mass in the vernacular.

So, presuming that your mother continued her daily Mass attendance post-Vatican II, there is no good reason that she would continue in her ignorance of Holy Scripture.

Now, my other thought, is that perhaps your mother (like many of our ancient saints in the faith) has a very good grasp of Scripture in its context. Perhaps, from your perspective, she does not measure up to your expectations of what “knowledge of Scripture” should be: ie, she doesn’t quote Scripture by memory . . .unlike you, she doesn’t sit in a service on Sunday where the minister reads directly from Scripture for 3 hours. . .as a child in her home, you did not witness her delving into private Scripture reading. This may be your “experience” of knowing Scripture and such things may indicate to you that one has a good grasp of the Word, but it does not mean that everyone MUST experience the Word as you do to have a good foundation in the gospel.

Again, Malachi, I would just encourage you to do some good historical research. If you picked up, for instance, some early Church Fathers’ writings (Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Cyril of Alexandria, or even Augustine) I am postitive that you would find their “knowledge of Scripture” quite different from your own. They did not quote the Bible with Book, Chapter, Verse with the ease of a 21st century non-denominational preacher. Yet, I’m sure you would not presume that they didn’t “know” their Bible.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
OK, I see it. We have different definitions of “justification”.
Understadably so. Exactly what is your definition of “justification”? And what is the historical, theological basis for this definition?

Better yet. . .start a new thread on this very topic. It should be lively.
 
Malachi,

I’ve enjoyed reading this thread because I can relate to many of the things that you’ve said. And I can certainly sympathize with you about your wife and what the priest told you. There was no excuse for that statement by the priest.

I can understand many of the things that you’ve said because my wife has stated very similiar things and she also left to join a non-denominational church. Now, she would like to believe that I an not a Christian but she knows that is not true. And I believe that she is caught in that struggle, so she finds as much as she can that is wrong with me to justify her faith.

Anyway, I believe that you are correct in thinking that the Catholic church did you wrong. But I can’t help but feeling that God is drawing you back to the Catholic church. (And for a reason). It seems to me that without knowing it the Catholic church is going through a change. Many have left and through other churches have studied the Bible and done research. And the more they read, the more they are led to the fact that the Catholic church is the true church. The change in the church I see is that those who do not actively see to learn about the Catholic church leave, those who do return or stay and we are building at better church each day. I think that you get a glimpse of that through this thread.

I too growing up just went through the motions in Mass. Now I understand more of the Mass and it’s true beauty, each week a new awakening happens at Mass and it is so beautiful. To truly believe the fact that the Eucharist is truly the body of Jesus, there is no greater gift. There is no better feeling in the world that that just after communion. I’ve learned so much and have so much more to learn. I love being born again each day.

Malachi, thank you for your post. I will keep you in my prayers.

In Christ, my brother. Merry Christmas!!!
 
I had an 8:00am presentation with a client this morning so I had to go to bed last night. I am glad I did as I would of gotten a headache reading the posts back and forth. A few observations:


  1. *]Being new to this forum and watching the exchange on this topic, I have to say I am impressed with the knowledge of its members. If I knew people like yourself in 1989 I would have never left the Church as I would of had answers.
    *]I really hope I am wrong but having spent time around people like **malachi_a_serva **and actually being one, he came on this forum with an agenda. I was the same way, I used to just vebally attack catholics with the same things, always pointing out that I never was fed, or I never was instructed to read the bible etc.,etc.,
    *]We as Catholic Fathers and Mothers need to spend time cathecising our children to prepare them when they come across these protestant challenges.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
Bible translation,…are you referring to Bede’s St. John, the great historian Anglo Saxon England (725 AD)? and then WYCLIF? (Writer and “reformer”, newadvent.org).

Luther? Tyndale? Coverdale?

I
Actually, I was referring (chronologicially) to the Biblical texts written in Greek during the early Church–many of which were “translated” from the ancient Hebraic texts. This Greek version of Scripture was accepted by the 1st century Church, indeed Jesus Christ himself, because of its wide appeal and rich linguistic expression to the Greek Jews and the Gentile populations.

Then, if you have done some good Bible history, you would know of the hundreds of vernacular “translations” that existed centuries before Wyckliffe, Luther, Tyndale, etc. ever entered the scene.

The Church has always had a very special interest in getting the Word out to the people in a language that would have been understandable. The Church, in fact, with this interest has been vigilant in its scholarly assessment of these “translations” so to ensure the version of the Bible that the public is consuming is indeed viable and accurate. Do not be fooled by the rhetoric, do your research.

To be clear, when I said that the “Reformers” weren’t not the ones who first translated the Bible from Latin into a vernacular language (German, French, Hungarian, Saxon, Italian, English, etc.), I meant the Protestant Reformation “Reformers” of the 16th century. Translations of Scripture were available in the common vernacular (which arguably changed from Latin in the 8th or 9th century) well before even Wyckliffe’s English translation surfaced.

May I suggest for your edification, Henry Graham’s Where We Got the Bible.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
Sorry deb1.

My comment about the molestations was just to point out and perhaps explain in answer to Jane Frances comment about how I could sit through 12 years of masses and not hear “born again”
I just read this. . .I must have missed it somehow in the back and forth.

WOW. . .Are you saying that because some priests molested children that it prohibited you from paying attention during 12 years at Mass during the readings from Scripture (specifically the one in the Gospel of St. John which coins the term "born again)? Were you personally being molested or distracted by the molestation of others during Mass which made it impossible for you to be receptive to the Word of God which was being read for you? I’m confused by your correlation between the horrible scandal of molestations among certain priests in the Church and how that directly affected your being able to hear “born again.”

Perhaps you can explain?

And when you do. . .Think of this. I once heard a story about a pastor who supposedly was very reputable and reknown in the Church who actually at one time said about Christ: “I do not even know the man you are talking about” (Mark 14:70). How would you then view this in light of the plain clothed nun who dismissed your questions, and the priest who told you “sh*!” happens, all the “good Catholic” children who made disobedient and sinful choices with you and in your presence, and your own mother who you believe has no knowledge of Scripture? Is it that none of these stand up to your personal expectations of what it is to be a good Christian example? Or maybe is it that they are the perfect example of what it means to be in need of a Savior? Maybe, like you, God is still working on them, too?

No excuse should or can be made for those who have led you astray. Any injustice or misinformation that has been imparted to you is indeed most reprehensible–especially on the part of those who have been entrusted with your education and instruction. Yet, at the point in your life when you suspected that what you were being fed wasn’t the fullness of truth, it became your job to meet the demands of your conscience.

As St. Paul says: “Everyonee should bear his own resposiblity.” (Gal. 6:5)

If you, as a maturing Christian, found that your were lacking in your Scriptural exposure or that a teacher, preacher, pastor, priest was not leading you correctly, you have the resposiblity seek Truth. Truth is different from what sounds good to you or what you are comfortable with.

“A man will reap only what he sows.” (Gal. 6:7)

Keep sowing! God Bless.
 
40.png
JaneFrances:
I just read this. . .I must have missed it somehow in the back and forth.

Bless.
The post on child molestation started in post 51, 3rd line from bottom.
 
40.png
malachi_a_serva:
I can’t wait to go to church…Sunday’s, Wednesday, Tuesdays for soul winning door to door…I find it like …
Well, come on over and do some soul winning for yourself at my house. Your responses are very programmed and very empty. You do not seem to know the depth of the faith and spirituality. I can sense the superficial spirit you exclaim, but do not see any glorification of our Lord or any reverence. Your scripture jumping in order to put together a puzzle that called, “accepting Jesus into my heart” is exciting and I’m sure you “feel” the Holy Spirit as you claim. But when’s the last time you’ve actually knelt and prayed to the Holy Spirit in complete adoration. Have you asked Him to guide you and enlighten you? You have a lot of studying to do far beyond John 3:16.
At the Council of Trent (1545-1563), the declarations of which are still in force, the Roman Catholic Church formally condemned the biblical doctrine of faith alone and grace alone. Consider the following declarations of Trent:
“If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
“If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Sixth Session, Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
The councils do not get together to create new doctrine, Malichi. When there is great question about certain doctrine the councils will go very deep into investigation. After serious discussion the council will make a declaration. There’s much more to it than this, but for your argument’s sake we’ll keep it simple. It’s kinda like if your a Dad and you have a wife with children. You as parents have a doctrine and set of laws, rules and beliefs. One day your son throws a fit and doesn’t want to go to Mass. You didn’t realize that there was question in your son’s mind about the importance of this. You and your wife discuss how you can better inform and instill the belief in your son’s heart and mind. You formally bring all your children to the living room and discuss to them the clarification and purpose. Martin Luther did NOT shake the catholic Church’s belief system so much that it cause a change in doctrine. He did, however, create quite a bit of controversy and the Church found it important to clarify and even canonize. You should learn the history of the Church and the Bible and read up on some early Church fathers, especially those closest to the apostles. You’d become quite amazed at how distant you have become from your Father.
 
I believe that the Holy Spirit has brought you to this board beyond your expectations. I for one have learned to “promise” to the Holy Spirit rather than “try to do the will of…”. My life is much different because I removed that lack of hesitation. I couldn’t imagine my life without the Holy Spirit now. I believe you came to argue a point but the Holy Spirt has made this an un-official inquiry. You have the basic sacraments of being a solid Christian and you believe you have moved forward to becoming closer to God through scripture. This is all great, but do not move further from him by leaving your life where it is. After becoming enlightend and guided, I think you will find that the Church is the body of Christ and you will become one with our Lord at the Eucharist. I’d like to ask you when the reformation became complete or will complete or become victorious. After 33,000 splinters of denominations and so-called “non-denominations”, I find that the reformation is one of the devil’s greatest feats so far. Ask yourself what you can do to become one with our Lord and bring all those churches back together and put it back on the Rock in which Jesus built his CHURCH. Not churches. I hope you find time to pray solemnly to God and ask him to show you his will. You’ll find that the burdensome weight of going to church and memorizing verses in order to defect more souls is not what God intended. I’m thinking he wants you to go to Mass and Glorify HIM, learn the true, historic and sound scriptural doctine and help those in your need by becoming more charitable rather than triumphalistic by “winning souls”.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top