Fundamentalism

[malachi_a_serva]

deb1:

Fundamentalists do not adhere to the word of God. They often claim to follow the bible but they make up rules that are not in the bible.

Alcohol drinking is a prime example. First let me say that if for some reason an individual wishes to abstain that is, of course, all right. When I was Baptists though, the church that I attended claimed that drinking alcohol was against the bible. There are of course those that don’t drink because they believe it is a bad witness to do so, but drinking alcohol is only a bad witness if you think that drinking alcohol is bad. As Jesus drank, and was even accused of being a wine biber, alcohol drinking can not be a sin.

As far as the Catholics that you knew, well, I have known Baptist that engaged in equally reprehensible actions. I don’t judge the Baptist church itself by these people. That would be foolish and immature of me.

Hopfully I have done this correctly. I am responding to the comment, "as Jesus Drank, and was even accused of being a wine biber,…

Here is a document that best explains why alcohol should not be consumed:

THE BIBLE AND WINE

By Bruce Lackey

1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: De. 11:14; 2 Ch. 31:5; Ne. 13:15; Pr. 3:10; Is. 16:10; 65:8; 1 Ti. 5:23.
2. The context will always show when “wine” refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Ge. 9, Noah’s experience after the Flood. Verse 21, “and he drank of the wine, and was drunken,” clearly refers to alcoholic beverage. Pr. 20:1 speaks of the same thing when it warns us, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that “a little bit won’t hurt” is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

Pr. 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who “tarry long” at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant.

If “wine” may mean fresh grape juice or alcohol, how can we know which is intended? The context determines the meaning. We can tell when “wine” means fresh grape juice and when it means alcoholic beverage by reading the context, just as we have done in the previous paragraphs…

gotothebible.com/HTML/bibleandwine.html

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Continued…

1. Scripture warns against the drinking of alcoholic wine. The Bible is consistent on this, both in the Old and New Testaments. The two previously quoted passages, Pr. 20:1 and 23:29-35, are good examples of scriptural warnings against consuming alcohol. Pr. 23:32 says “at the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” Verse 33 shows that it will cause one to look at strange women (that is, not one’s wife) and to say perverse things, or things which he would not say if he were sober. Verse 34 predicts that it will cause death, such as drowning, or loneliness, such as lying upon the top of a mast. Verse 35 warns against numbness (“they have beaten me and I felt it not”) and "addiction (“when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again”).

Pr. 31:4-5 teaches, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.” The danger is obvious.

By the way, Pr. 31:6,7 give us the only legitimate use of alcoholic wine in Scripture. “Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.” This would be using it as an anesthetic; a painkiller. But this is not for everyone; he says in v. 6, “unto him that is ready to perish.” Of course, they did not have all the painkillers that we have today. In our time, it would not be necessary to do this. We have many anesthetics available for those who are dying. Then, about the only thing available to the average person would have been some kind of alcohol. Alcohol is a depressant; it is not a stimulant, as some think. After several drinks, one gets dizzy; then he will pass out. So this passage teaches that alcoholic beverage would be only for the person who is ready to die; there would be no hope for his life. All that would be possible would be to ease his pain and help him forget his misery.

Another passage is Is. 5:11. “Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!” Obviously this is alcoholic, because it inflames. Why does he say, “Woe unto them”? Verse 12 answers, “…they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands.” Everyone knows that when one gives himself to the drinking of alcoholic beverage, he will not be more spiritual, more desirous of learning the Word of God. To the contrary, it causes a person to ignore the Lord. Verses 13-14 reveal two other serious results: people go into captivity (become slaves to something or someone) and Hell enlarges itself! The drinking of alcoholic wine has caused Hell to be enlarged! God does not want anyone to go to Hell; He has given the greatest, dearest gift that He possibly could, to rescue sinners from it. He never made Hell for people. The Lord Jesus Christ said that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt. 25:41). However, because of evil alcohol, Hell has had an enlargement campaign. Here, then, is a clear warning against drinking alcohol, because God does not want anyone to go to Hell.

Is. 28:7,8 continues the warning. “But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.”

What a tragic thing, that even in the days of Isaiah, the priests and prophets were engaged in the drinking of alcoholic wine! Thus we see that the problem of preachers recommending alcohol is not new. Six hundred years before Christ, demon alcohol had worked its way into religion.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Continued…

1. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent if from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into a thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press, Little Rock, Arkansas). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor: One point of Patton’s book is that the making of alcoholic wine requires (name removed by moderator)ut from man. It requires the addition of certain additives (though it might be something as simple as sugar) and the control of temperature, etc. The natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state. The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing. Natural process are PERVERTED by man.]

Now we come to the longest point in this entire study, but one which is most important, chiefly because so many insist that Jesus made and drank alcoholic wine.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Continued…

1. Jesus did not drink or make alcoholic wine. Here are ten proofs from Scripture.

The first reason is because of His holy nature. In He. 7:26, we read that the Lord Jesus is “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.” No doubt, the Saviour, being God in the flesh, had an air of holiness about Himself that could be seen by even the most casual observer. For instance, the profane soldiers, who were sent to arrest Him, gave as their reason for returning without Him, that “never a man spake like this man.” (John 7:46) The words of Jesus were different; He, no doubt, had a very holy appearance, character, and speech.

Why is this so important? Consider this illustration. The word “cider” may mean an alcoholic beverage, or plain apple juice. Suppose we lived during the 1920s, prohibition days, and were approached by two people offering us a drink of cider. One of the persons, we knew to be one of the holiest men in town, faithful to the house of God, separated from the world, diligent in prayers, always witnessing to others; the other was a known liquor dealer. If each one offered us a drink of “his very own cider,” we would assume that the holy person’s was no more than apple juice, but there would be no doubt about our opinion regarding the liquor dealer’s cider! Obviously, the character of a person influences what that one does.

Since the Lord Jesus Christ was “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners,” we may safely assume that He would not make that which is called in Scripture a mocker and deceiver of man, causing untold misery.

A second reason: He would not contradict scripture. In Mt. 5:17- 18, Christ made this clear, saying, “Think not that I am come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Therefore, Christ could not have contradicted Hab. 2:15, “Woe unto him that giveth his neighbor drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!”

Certainly, Jesus knew that this verse was in the Bible; He was well-acquainted with Scripture, since it is His Word and was written about Him. He did not come to violate Scripture, but to fulfill it. He could not have done so, if He had made alcoholic wine and had given it to his neighbor.

Some people object to the use of this verse by saying that it would apply only to one who would give his neighbor drink for the purpose of looking on his nakedness. But we must remember: when one gives his neighbor something which will make him drunk, he is putting himself in the very class of those who do so in order to look on their nakedness. And since the Scripture commands us to “abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Th. 5:22), we can be sure that the Lord Jesus would not have done something that would have been associated with such an evil practice as that described in Hab. 2:15. For the same reason, no Christian should be engaged in the selling of alcoholic beverage.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Continued…

The third reason is that Le. 10:9-11 commands the priest of God, “Do not drink wine nor strong drink … that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statues which the Lord hath spoken…” Now, since He. 2:17 calls Christ “a merciful and faithful high priest,” we would expect Him to obey all Scriptures pertaining to that office. If He had made or drunk alcoholic wine, He would have disobeyed these verses and would have been disqualified from teaching the children of Israel the statues of the Lord.

The fourth reason is found in a passage which we have already considered: Pr. 31:4-5 prohibits kings and princes from drinking alcoholic wine or any other strong drink. If they had done so, their judgment would have been perverted. It was necessary for Christ to obey these verses also, since He was Prince of Peace (Is. 9:6) and King of Kings (Re. 19:16). In Mt. 27:11, He admitted to being the King of the Jews. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey’s colt, to fulfill Zec. 9:9, which prophesied that Israel’s king would enter the city in just that way. Undoubtedly, He was king, and as such, would have had to obey Pr. 31:4-5.

Reason five: Christ did not come to mock or deceive people, yet Pr. 20:1 says that wine does both. Rather than coming to mock or deceive he came to save!

Reason six: He did not come to send people to Hell. We have already seen that Is. 5:11-14 teaches that Hell had to be enlarged because of the drinking of alcoholic beverage. Christ did not come to send people to Hell; listen to Jn. 3:17: “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

Reason seven: Christ did not come to cast a stumblingblock before anyone; yet, Ro. 14:21 teaches that a person who gives another alcoholic wine does just that. “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” Everyone who has studied the problem of alcoholism has learned that some people cannot handle any amount of alcohol, while others may drink one or two “social” drinks and stop. Experts do not know why this is true; various theories have been propounded, but nothing has been proved to be true regarding every person. Some say it is chemical; others insist that it must be psychological. The fact is, we do not know for certain. In any given group of people, there would be several potential alcoholics. What a shame it would be for a person, who is a potential slave to it, to get his first taste at the Lord’s table in church, then proceed down the road of misery to an alcoholic’s grave!

I certainly would not want my children to get their first taste of alcohol at the family meal; nor would I want them to get it at church. One or more of them could well be potential alcoholics. As evidence that this is possible, we should consider that some denominations which serve alcoholic wine in their religious services also operate homes for alcoholic priests!

But we can be absolutely sure that Christ did not come to cause others to stumble!

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Continued…

The eighth reason: John 2, the miracle of turning water into wine, does not require that it be alcoholic. Many insist that it was, on the basis of verse 10, which says, “Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse; but thou hast kept the good wine until now.” They would say that, in those days, it was common to serve the best alcoholic wine at first, saving the worst until later, when men’s tastes have been dulled by much drinking. But the point is just the opposite here! These people could definitely recognize that the wine which Jesus made was much better than what they had been served at first. This could not have been possible if they were already well on their way to becoming intoxicated! The fact is, neither the wine which they had at first, nor that which Christ made, was alcoholic.

Reason nine is found in the same passage: the Lord Jesus Christ would not have gotten glory from making drunk people drunker. Verse 11 is most important when it states that, by this miracle, Jesus “manifested forth his glory.” Verse 10 indicates that the people had drunk quite a bit of whatever kind of wine they were drinking. If it had been alcoholic, they would have been intoxicated, or nearly so. Had Christ made alcoholic wine, He would have made drunk people drunker, or almost-drunk people completely drunk! Such a deed would certainly not have manifested any glory to Him!

This chapter also gives us the tenth reason: making drunk people drunker would not have caused his disciples to believe more strongly on him, yet verse 11 says that, as a result of what He did in turning the water into wine, “his disciples believed on him.” Jn. 1:41 shows that they had already believed on Him as Messiah; this was a deepening of their faith and a proof that they had not been wrong. Would making drunk people drunker inspire such faith? The opposite would be likely! They were not looking for a Messiah who would pass out free booze! Thus, because of the description of this miracle and its result, we can not conclude otherwise than that this wine was non-alcoholic.

In closing, we must consider two things. One passage, we have already seen. Ro. 14:21 clearly teaches that Christians should totally abstain, the reason being that it is good “neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” We have already seen that people may be potential alcoholics. By the social drinking of alcohol, one might encourage a person to start drinking, who would not be able to stop. Missionaries and tourists to foreign countries, where alcohol is a common table beverage, should remember this. We should also wake up and realize that, in such countries, alcoholism is also rampant. Let us totally abstain, so that we might not encourage someone to drink and go down the road to alcoholism.

The last consideration is 1 Co. 6:9-10. Here, the Bible teaches that drunkenness will send a person to hell. “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

This does not mean that a drunkard can never be saved, because the next verse says that some of the Corinthians committed these very acts before they were converted. A person can be gloriously set free from drunkenness, by receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and by following His teachings. Many people have experienced such a release! But the tragedy is that if a person continues in drunkenness, refusing to let Jesus be the Lord, preferring rather to let king alcohol rule, that one can look for nothing but a drunkard’s grave and eternity in the lake of fire. “Be not deceived,” the Bible says “the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

If you are having trouble with this sin, let me encourage you to realize that you can ask Jesus Christ to be the Lord of your life and Saviour from all your sins, and to set you free. You can know what it means to be free in Christ! The Bible says, “If the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (Jn. 8:36). Realize that you are a sinner in God’s sight, “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Ro. 3:23). Repent of your rebellion against God, surrendering to His authority. “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Lk. 13:3). Receive Christ as your Lord and Saviour. “As many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God” (Jn. 1:12).

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Continued…

WHAT ABOUT 1 TIMOTHY 5:23? “…drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” Many insist that here the Bible gives the privilege, if not a command, of using alcoholic wine as a medicine. However, this cannot possibly be referring to alcoholic wine, because he specifically says that it is to be taken for Timothy’s stomach. He obviously had some kind of stomach disease and any doctor will tell you that such a person must abstain from alcoholic beverage. This author has had much stomach trouble through the years and has consulted various doctors, observing various dietary restrictions. In every case, they warned against drinking any alcoholic beverage whatsoever. If we know that today, surely the Holy Spirit of God knew that when He inspired this verse! We do not know what Timothy’s specific infirmities were, nor do we know what kind of healing properties there were in grape juice. Maybe Paul was saying that Timothy should not drink the water, since in many parts of the world it is not pure and would cause a healthy person to have trouble from amoebas, etc. One who already had stomach problems would only multiply them by drinking impure water. Paul might have been recommending that Timothy drink grape juice only. In any case, we can be positive that he was not telling him to put alcohol in a bad stomach!

IS IT ALRIGHT FOR A CHRISTIAN TO DRINK MODERATELY? (1) No, even slight drinking impairs one’s thinking and lowers alertness to spiritual danger (1 Pe. 5:8,9). (2) No, Christians are not to be controlled by liquor (Ep. 5:18). (3) No, Christians are priests, and the Bible forbids priests to drink (1 Pe. 2:9; Le. 10:8,11). (4) No, Christians are not to touch the unclean thing (2 Co. 6:17–7:1). (5) No, Christians are to abstain from every form of evil (1 Th. 5:22). (6) No, Christians who drink cause others to stumble (Ro. 14:21). (7) No, wine is a mocker and a deceiver (Pr. 20:1). No man who takes an alcoholic beverage to his lips knows exactly where it will lead.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

deb1:

Fundamentalists do not adhere to the word of God. They often claim to follow the bible but they make up rules that are not in the bible.

Alcohol drinking is a prime example. First let me say that if for some reason an individual wishes to abstain that is, of course, all right. When I was Baptists though, the church that I attended claimed that drinking alcohol was against the bible. There are of course those that don’t drink because they believe it is a bad witness to do so, but drinking alcohol is only a bad witness if you think that drinking alcohol is bad. As Jesus drank, and was even accused of being a wine biber, alcohol drinking can not be a sin.

Now in response to this:

It would be a mistake to take or accept the word of Jesus’ enemies as truth. On two other occasions they said he had a devil (John 7:20 and John 8:48). Plus, they called him a “gluttonous man”…which would be a sin…Jesus had no sin.

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

deb1:

Fundamentalists do not adhere to the word of God. They often claim to follow the bible but they make up rules that are not in the bible.

Alcohol drinking is a prime example. First let me say that if for some reason an individual wishes to abstain that is, of course, all right. When I was Baptists though, the church that I attended claimed that drinking alcohol was against the bible. There are of course those that don’t drink because they believe it is a bad witness to do so, but drinking alcohol is only a bad witness if you think that drinking alcohol is bad. As Jesus drank, and was even accused of being a wine biber, alcohol drinking can not be a sin.

Now in response to this:

It would be a mistake to take or accept the word of Jesus’ enemies as truth. On two other occasions they said he had a devil (John 7:20 and John 8:48). Plus, they called him a “gluttonous man”…which would be a sin…Jesus had no sin.

Sorry, I am a bit dense here. I don’t know if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

 

[deb1]

You wrote a very long post and I can tell that you have put a lot of thought into this. So, although I won’t cover all your points I will start with a couple.

First you are incorrect in stating that wine would require human intervention to make. Any one with fruit trees knows that animals can get tipsy from eating the fruit that has been left on the ground too long. I remember watching a PBS animal documetary when I was young in which African elephants would travel miles to eat the fallen fruit of some trees. They would then literally stagger about, drunk.

The process of keeping alcohol from turning to wine was not invented until1893 by the man who invented Welch’s grape fruit juice.

Because you have written so exhaustively on this subject, I am going to start a new thread. Please join me there. You can just copy and paste what you wrote. I wouldn’t want you fingers to give out.

 

[deb1]

deb1:

You wrote a very long post and I can tell that you have put a lot of thought into this. So, although I won’t cover all your points I will start with a couple.

First you are incorrect in stating that wine would require human intervention to make. Any one with fruit trees knows that animals can get tipsy from eating the fruit that has been left on the ground too long. I remember watching a PBS animal documetary when I was young in which African elephants would travel miles to eat the fallen fruit of some trees. They would then literally stagger about, drunk.

The process of keeping alcohol from turning to wine was not invented until1893 by the man who invented Welch’s grape fruit juice.

Because you have written so exhaustively on this subject, I am going to start a new thread. Please join me there. You can just copy and paste what you wrote. I wouldn’t want you fingers to give out.

I just put the new thread under nonCatholic religions. I entitled it the fundamentalist’s belief that drinking alcohol is wrong.
T

 

[John_Paul_III]

malachi_a_serva:

I can’t wait to go to church…Sunday’s, Wednesday, Tuesdays for soul winning door to door…I find it like recharging my battery in this evil, sinful world.

I find the catholic church does not distinguish itself apart from the world enough. Eg…on the top of the page that I am currently typing on has a sign for “annual Christmas sale save 10- 25% storewide”…then it has a “santa claus”.

I find that has nothing to do with the birth of our savior. I think God would find it offensive as well. That we have a fictious individual that supposedly brings us gifts…to represent the real gift that Jesus brought us.

Unbelievable, do find self rightousness now that you are a fundamental know it all?

Yes you like many of your fundamentalist goes to a big church, that has really good preachers competing with other really good preachers next door, down the street, across town, even some fill arenas.

As a Southern Baptist, later non denominational, we had lights, smoke, music, it was more of a social club, than a place of God. You attend a country club, yes with good people, that are trully good christians, but it is a popular country club.

I am going to stop now, because to debate with you any further would be rediculous, your santa line was very typical.

Is your Church going to not have services this Christmas sunday like the mega churches in Chicago?

 

[John_Paul_III]

malachi_a_serva:

In my search I found these similarities. Now please do not get upset, however they are true:

Catholic Church: only entity able to interpret scripture
Jehovah’s Witnesses: their Watchtower organization the only entity to interpret scripture

Catholic Church: the one true church, outside of it is no salvation.
JW’s: the one true church, outside of it is no salvation

Catholic Church: Has their own translation of the bible
JW’s: has their own translation of the bible.

We all know the errors in translation of the Watch Tower’s Bible. Here is one that upset me when I was thinking of returning to Catholicism. In the Douay-Rheims Bible, Matthew 5 32:

But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

However, the new Catholic Bible (The New American Bible) renders it: “But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful)causes her…”

Now to me this is a prime example of a translation trying to translate/fit their own doctrine.

How does one translate " porniea" - hense “fornication” as “unless the marriage is unlawful”?

To me this and the things above enlightened me to allot.

Ok I know I said I would not post anymore but this is really funny?

The Catholic Church was put in place by Jesus and he gave us this authority, to compare this to the JW’s shame on you.

It was the protestant groups that changed what is and what was in the bible.

Again you are out of control.

Where in your new faith and walk with God do you feel it right to attack our Church, His Church?

 

[imroc]

While I feel JPIII’s frustration, we must not let our emotions run off a soul that is in need of coming back to God. I don’t like the fact that he doesn’t acknowledge the said truths and goes to another subject. Malachi, you cannot hide from the Holy Spirit. I ask you to seriously look into these subjects further and come back. You are a pawn in the fundamentalist game and the programmed statements are just what you needed to get out of your mouth (in this case, typing) because you get the opportunity to hear yourself speak and get the real answers. “Soul winning” can be exciting, but you don’t have hardly any of the truth, just what you’ve been taught to teach and say. This works on people who are of the world, but not on people who know the truth. Ask yourself this. Do you bring out scripture to us to disprove the Church? You may feel like you are winning souls from the devils grasp of catholics, but you are living in a world that has a narrow view. The fact that you jump around in a programmed method to save souls with scripture verses memorized to lead down a road to redemption is a great example of this narrow view. Open your heart to the Holy Spirit, understand the context of what you memorize and ask for guidance. The truth is in the Church, the catholic Church. And your starting line is here at this site. Read Acts 8:26-40. You NEED the truth that has been preserved by the Church. You need the instruction and guidance of the Church. You cannot rely on somebody who is part of a splintered world of 10s of thousands of so called churches to give you the truth. With the web of deciet, twisted lies and trenches of rapture crazed “ministers”, you have ONE single beacon of light to look to. It isn’t the Bible, although it’s very nourishing, but as the very scripture you have used to live your life by says, it’s the Church. You know, the Bride of Christ. Do not take this scripture out of context or you’ll find yourself skipping around to churches that best fit YOU, when you should be looking for the Church that best fits Christ. Glorify the Lord and become a part of his body, the Vine in which he speaks of.

 

[St.Eric]

Amen imroc! I too will be praying for you Malachi! I am a Catholic convert myself. I came home to Rome a few years ago. The depth and breadth of the faith in the Catholic church is truly amazing! Come home my friend! The fundamentalist well is a shallow one indeed. We are truly born again when we are baptized and when we are confirmed. The whole notion of “asking Jesus into are hearts to be our personal Lord and savior” is in itself unbiblical. I ask you or anyone else where the scriptures say we must do this to be born again. I also ask you to show me where the bible says it is the sole rule of faith…you cannot. Alas, the bible itself tells us that the “CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth” 1 Timothy 3:15. St. Paul tells us to “hold fast to the Traditions you have received from me…” Scripture tells us that the whole world could not contain the books it would take to record the activities of Christ while he was on earth. And on, and on.

 

[Lillith]

Welcome to the forums Malachi!!!

I just wanted to point out a little something…There are probably pew warmers in your Fundamentalist church too…people who go through the motions…but don’t really “get it”…there are those in every church, unfortunately. My brother-in-law is Fundamentalist…and was complaining of this very thing just the other day…it appears folks yell out Amen during the sermon just to prove their holiness, because according to him…he could tell they are not sincere…the fruits of their labor are lacking.

I also wanted to comment about the prist saying “s**t happens”, during a most distressful time in your life…during a divorce!..it is extremely hard to believe that ANY PERSON…of the cloth or otherwise would walk up to a person seeking refuge from the intense emotional havoc of divorce and saying…“Oh well…sh*t happens”…I don’t even think Howard Stern would be that crass…but since you say it happened…the only thing to comment is that all men are sinners…and some can be apparently extremely insensitive…but one priest does not make up the Church.

I had to giggle about the whole argument…the wine thing. Really very amazing to me the lengths folks will go to trying to explain away the fact that Jesus drank wine. I mean really…there was no refrigeration during Biblical times…fermentation happens to grapes during the “rotting” process…wine was inescapable…Gluttony and drunkeness are sins…for sure! ANYTHING in excess is sinful…But come on…do you know any Jewish people? They still enjoy a good glass of wine during dinner…and Jesus as you know…was a good Jewish man!

Seriously…I could never even consider Fundamentalism…too much emphasis is put on sinful objects…and I for one know that things do not sin…people sin. Alchohol is not a sinner…it is merely a drink which some people have trouble…some forms of dancing are disgusting and tasteless, but that isn’t the sin… it is the person who lusts that is sinning…Gambling is not a sinner…the person who forgoes supporting himself or his family…he is the sinner.

What is really telling about this whole “objects as sinners” mentality that fundamentalist rave about are what is left out. You didn’t write that overeating and becoming obese because of an addiction to Mcdonald’s was being an “unchristian” activity…I didn’t see laying around watching T.V. all day listed either…

Why aren’t Mcdonald’s and Television banned also…sloth, gluttony, drunkeness…they are all equal sins. How in the world does anyone “confess all their sins to God” when they don’t have a true grasp of what those are?

Peace…God Love ya!

 

[malachi_a_serva]

John Paul III:

Ok I know I said I would not post anymore but this is really funny?

The Catholic Church was put in place by Jesus and he gave us this authority, to compare this to the JW’s shame on you.

It was the protestant groups that changed what is and what was in the bible.

Again you are out of control.

Where in your new faith and walk with God do you feel it right to attack our Church, His Church?

Hi there. Please then tell me, how one translates porniea as “unless the marriage is unlawful”. This is a perfect, undeniable example of the interpretation done to fit Catholic doctrine.

Just like in the JW New World Translation John 1:1 where they render Jesus “a” God. They add the “a”.

Same thing. The Douay-Rheims Bible had it translated correctly…however the church needed to remove Jesus’ exception as it went against what the church taught.

 

[St.Eric]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi there. Please then tell me, how one translates porniea as “unless the marriage is unlawful”. This is a perfect, undeniable example of the interpretation done to fit Catholic doctrine.

Just like in the JW New World Translation John 1:1 where they render Jesus “a” God. They add the “a”.

Same thing. The Douay-Rheims Bible had it translated correctly…however the church needed to remove Jesus’ exception as it went against what the church taught.

Look at the footnote in the Douay-Rheims on Matthew 19:9- The language may be different but the spirit of the scripture remains unchanged.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

St.Eric:

Look at the footnote in the Douay-Rheims on Matthew 19:9- The language may be different but the spirit of the scripture remains unchanged.

That’s just it…the word of God says, “fornication” (porniea)…I am aware of what the footnote says, but again…that is adding to the word of God to fit Catholic Doctrine. Cannot anybody see this perfect, clear example?

I say that with full heartfelt sincerity.

If we were talking to a JW, we would be telling him to put away the watch tower influence,…etc…etc… Does not other Catholics take issue to this? That it is suspect?

 

[St.Eric]

malachi_a_serva:

That’s just it…the word of God says, “fornication” (porniea)…I am aware of what the footnote says, but again…that is adding to the word of God to fit Catholic Doctrine. Cannot anybody see this perfect, clear example?

I say that with full heartfelt sincerity.

If we were talking to a JW, we would be telling him to put away the watch tower influence,…etc…etc… Does not other Catholics take issue to this? That it is suspect?

Checkout a Scofield Bible and in every footnote you will see Mr. Scofield’s version of his protestant beleifs built in as well. Especially as it relates to eschatology. And, MANY MANY protestant sects use this version of the bible and beleive the footnotes. So, we could also say that Baptists, Lutherns, etc, also change the bible to suit their theology. What about Martin Luther adding the word “alone” in terms of saved by faith “alone” to suit his theology and every protestant since “buying” that version of the word of God? Your argument doesn’t hold water.