Fundamentalism

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St.Eric:
Checkout a Scofield Bible and in every footnote you will see Mr. Scofield’s version of his protestant beleifs built in as well. Especially as it relates to eschatology. And, MANY MANY protestant sects use this version of the bible and beleive the footnotes. So, we could also say that Baptists, Lutherns, etc, also change the bible to suit their theology. What about Martin Luther adding the word “alone” in terms of saved by faith “alone” to suit his theology and every protestant since “buying” that version of the word of God? Your argument doesn’t hold water.
I truly wasn’t trying to argue. Brought to bring up as point. I have about 8 different translations…one coming in the mail an “exegeses” bible if you ever heard of it. I am interested to review it’s translations. I do not have a scofield one. And I agree, if what you say about it is true, that is wrong as well.

But that doesn’t justify the translation in the NAB.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
I truly wasn’t trying to argue. Brought to bring up as point. I have about 8 different translations…one coming in the mail an “exegeses” bible if you ever heard of it. I am interested to review it’s translations. I do not have a scofield one. And I agree, if what you say about it is true, that is wrong as well.

But that doesn’t justify the translation in the NAB.
Arguing in charity is OK. I don’t mind it at all. I am not a bible scholar and cannot give you a good defense of the NAB. I am sure the likes of Scott Hahn could make it clear. Hey Dr. Hahn, if you are out there- please respond!. Anyway, I also think it is important to remember that the Church has not put into dogma that we are to use the NAB and only the NAB- we can use any version we like and the teaching of the church remains the same. “what God has joined together, let no man put asunder…” I think that backs the church position pretty well.
 
Malachi,
You are not going to get comfort or support here. In seperating yourself to God you have also seperated yourself from the RCC.
I hear your pain and am glad you have found something that is real, not something that someone else tells you is right. Praise God that He placed in your heart a search for truth, not eveyone has the desire for truth.
 
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SolaChristo:
Malachi,
You are not going to get comfort or support here. In seperating yourself to God you have also seperated yourself from the RCC.
I hear your pain and am glad you have found something that is real, not something that someone else tells you is right. Praise God that He placed in your heart a search for truth, not eveyone has the desire for truth.
Praise be to the Father! That search for the fullness of the truth is EXACTLY what led me home to the Roman Catholic Church!!! And…“may the gates of Hell never prevail against IT !” Notice the singular “it” and not the “them” or “the lossely associated body of beleivers” etc., etc.
 
Greetings and welcome to the forum!

Like you I was raised catholic, but took it far less seriously than I should have. Unlike you, I’ve since been confronted with evidence that my recollections and reality are somewhat not-aligned. (More in a minute).

I spent much time with an evangelical group called the Navigators in college. Did the weekly bible study, one-one with staff, summer discipleship training, memorized versus, etc. I too grew greatly in my faith and came to believe I had been short-changed by the Catholic Church. Luckily, my own mother was sharp enough to see what was going on and called me on it one day when I was complaining. She pulled out all my old catholic school workbooks, some of the textbooks, book reports, etc. Boy was I embarrassed by how much I had let go in one ear and out another! That day I had to admit that I couldn’t blame the church for my own failures. Thanks mom!

The more I learned from the Navs, the more my conscience started to bother me. I too heard the grape juice theory. Grape juice is a non-existant item in cultures with no refridgerators! It either goes bad or turns into wine in no time flat! Besides that, read the next line. The steward OBVIOUSLY notes that it is alcholic wine. Nobody loses their ability to tell good ghrape juice from bad after having a few too many drinks of GRAPE JUICE!

I attended the services of some churches of other people in the Navs. Most were longer than one hour, but none contained more scripture. They had more music, more preaching ABOUT the subject scripture passage, but not more actual scripture than the three reading we get at mass. If you ever hear the passage where Jesus renames Simon to Peter, you’ll hear some distortion about the Greek words being different, but won’t hear that the REAL reason for that is the gender of the noun, not a distinction intended by Jesus. You won’t here that both forms of rock are Kephas in ARAMAIC, the language Jesus actually spoke. Understood properly, most evangelical pastors can’t explain why Jesus told Peter “You are rock and on this rock I will found my church.”

The catholic position of faith, works and justification has ALWAYS been harmonious with both Paul’s admonitions against ‘works’ (which to Paul’s audience are the works of the Mosaic law) AND Jesus words about the sheep and the goats. The catholic position has always been that we are justified through grace. But we further understand that the choices we make in living our lives IS ITSELF and acceptance or rejection of that grace. When we choose to subordinate our own will to that of Christ in our ordinary lives, that is an actual occurence of accepting the offer of God’s grace. It does NOT constitute an ‘earning’ of salvation (though individual catholics botch understanding of that distinction quite as often as they do other matters of faith and doctrine).

Evangelical pastors always need to wave their hands and deny the CLEAR MEANING of the text when asserting that communion is merely a symbol and a remembrance of Jesus and his sacrifice. Read those texts in John; why would anybody abandon Jesus over his choice of bread as a symbol? They wouldn’t. They left because they were repulsed at the need to eat his very flesh and blood. He let them go because God never forces us to obey. If they had merely misunderstood, he would have corrected them!

Finally, evangelical pastors never seem to notice that their brand of christianity is absent from history for the first 1,500 years! The earliest of christians wrote clearly about Christs real presence in the eucharist, had a hierarchy that placed critical importance on tracing succession to the apostles, believed in sacraments as sources of God’s grace, etc.

Please note that the Catholic Church does NOT place the Pope and councils on the same plane as scripture. The canon of scripture is closed. The Catholic Church teaches that no new GENERAL revelation is forthcoming. No church teaching can ever contradict genuine principles taught in scripture (versus distortions or misunderstandings of scripture). The role of the magesterium is to interpret scripture and provide guidance on the abundance of issues not definitively outlined in scripture (contraception, end of life morality, stem cells, other modern phenomenon not thought of 2,000 years ago).

Jesus instructed us to be in this world, but not of it. Catholics, in fact DO tend towards be too much of it. Fundies, in my experience tend towards not being IN it (random door-door hardly qualifies as being in the world). Different side of the same sin. If you aren’t IN the world, the lost folks can’t relate to you. You become Ned Flanders to them. Ineffective as witnesses and prone to spiritual inbreeding. The world is NOT evil. It is good, but fallen. Ponder that distinction between catholic and fundamentalist teaching long enough and you’ll eventually end up re-poping!
 
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SolaChristo:
Malachi,
You are not going to get comfort or support here. In seperating yourself to God you have also seperated yourself from the RCC.
I hear your pain and am glad you have found something that is real, not something that someone else tells you is right. Praise God that He placed in your heart a search for truth, not eveyone has the desire for truth.
Thanks Sola Christo.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Notworthy, why would you call me a lier?

What I say is the truth. I am just trying to explain my experiences with why I am a fundamentalist.

Raised Catholic. Received all the sacrements that was required. Read the bible on my own will wnen I was 11…not at the recommendation of my parish or priest.

Married Catholic. Had a catholic wife commit adultery. Had a priest tell me “sh_t happens” those are his exact words to me when I came to see him on the issue. He offered nothing other than somethings are outside your control. Later told me $1500 to get marriage annulled.

In a time when I needed my priest, my church, I was let down. I started searching. Looked upon myself as a non-denominational Christian.

Became “born again”…I experienced something I do not think most “non born again belivers” can understand.

Just trying to explain.
My wife, a Catholic, left me (“irreconcilable difference”) and, devastated, I sought solace and support with the parish priest, and that comprised of one indifferent meeting. I spoke with the sister associated with the parish. She was little help either, although more compassionate than the priest. Both, in a way, said “Divorce is part of American life anymore” with an accompanying sigh. Three months after the wife left, I had a breakdown and missed one month of work. During that time, I went to confession. What the priest said to me shocked and upset me. It was more of a personal attack against me. No empathy, no compassion, no understanding, no encouragement. When I left the confessional, I felt worse then when I had entered. Between that time and about 8 months, the priest barely addressed me, whether before or after Mass. One evening I was on the grounds with my best friend (my dog!), since I liked to go there in the evening and meditate, and he was as cool to me as a statue in a park. No interest in me. Never asked me how I was getting along. At Mass, he would see me with my son and choose to ignore both of us. Feeling abandoned and alone, I left the Catholic Church and did not return for 3 years. During that time, I wrote a lengthy letter to the priest outlining my anger. Shortly thereafter, I heard he admitted himself for alcohol abuse. Did my letter make an impact? Doubtful. I never heard from him, but then I did not expect a response to my letter. After 3 years, my sister’s husband died. There was no Mass, but a priest spoke at the funeral home. A month later, an office worker’s father died. At the funeral Mass I began to understand. The next week, I returned to Mass (can’t say I’ve not missed any Masses since because I have). What did I learn? The Mass and worshipping God is not about me! It is about God! It is God centered. Not going to Mass for 3 years was not punishing God, it was punishing me. I listened to the other denominations, even accompanied neighbors to their non-denominational Bible-only church, and there was nothing there. I attended a neighbor’s funeral and the Baptist preacher, in his double-breasted suit and well-coifed hair, said nothing in his ramblings. The Catholic Church is the true Church. Even 8 years of parochial schooling and 4 years of private high schooling failed to make me realize that (have to rebel, I guess). No two people are the same. We are all different and confront our issues dissimilarly so I am not comparing us. I just want you to reconsider because life truly is a marathon and the simplicity of Fundamentalism prepares you only for the sprint, not the long course. Good luck.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Thanks Sola Christo.
Funny thing is that you have found comfort in another protestant’s words that are plain and simply empty. Neither you or Sola answered any of our questions, but you continually ask your brother questions. You’ve gone down the one way where it’s all take and no give. You believe you give by “winning souls” but when have you really comitted to Jesus’ second command, thus returning the first command? You can run around the questions all week, but your not doing yourself any good. We’re not asking for much, but if you want this to be a dialogue, you’ll have to answer…and not only to us.
 
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SolaChristo:
Praise God that He placed in your heart a search for truth, not eveyone has the desire for truth.
You are right! Too many people do not do their own research, they just believe want they want to believe or what some one said without checking it out for themselves. I did my homework for years and by God’s grace He brought me home to His Church!

Peace,

George
 
As I always say. The fundamentalist/protestant well is truly shallow. Their river may be a mile wide but is only an inch deep. The whole experinece relies on an EMOTIONAL experinece and little else. In addition to the emotional experience, they rely the individual interpretation of scripture by their pastor. And, when the pastor starts preaching an idea or interpretation that the congregant disagrees, with, well, then it is time to find a new denomination. I used to do this myself. In fact, in my experince there are a lot of fundamentalists/protestants do this on a regular basis- “church hopping”- is the un-offical term. All of this combines to make for what is really a fragile faith with not much depth. As long as everything is going to your liking and your emotions are high, life is great. As soon as the boat experiences rough waters in life, look out! Desperation and the lows often set in. A faith that depends on an emotional high is ill equipped to deal with the “dark night of the soul” that inevitable we will all encounter.
 
Your response to our friend (with his first posted message), who honestly shared his feelings with us, was rather inappropriate, don’t you think? Christians should be inviting, kind and non-judgmental, but your response shows the absence of that.
Plus, the most powerful thing is NOT the Eucharist, but love. Long way to learn my friend 🙂
 
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tomaskovarik:
Your response to our friend (with his first posted message), who honestly shared his feelings with us, was rather inappropriate, don’t you think? Christians should be inviting, kind and non-judgmental, but your response shows the absence of that.
Plus, the most powerful thing is NOT the Eucharist, but love. Long way to learn my friend 🙂
Please show me where the post was uncharitable. I was relating my experineces and observations as a former fundamentalist/protestant. If I sounded inapproriate- pardon me, a thousand times over. No mean spirit was intended. I am pointing out a often sad reality of the fundamentalist/protestant reality. I am sure a lot- if not all- converts can atest to waht I said in the previous post. In essence, I have “been there done that.” I am not preaching from a tower- removed from the protestnat experince. I DO love them all and frequently pray for their hearts to be softened and for them to come into the one true fold, just as I have. I also pray this for Muslims.
 
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tomaskovarik:
Your response to our friend (with his first posted message), who honestly shared his feelings with us, was rather inappropriate, don’t you think? Christians should be inviting, kind and non-judgmental, but your response shows the absence of that.
Plus, the most powerful thing is NOT the Eucharist, but love. Long way to learn my friend 🙂
who are you talking to :confused: . All of us?

I thought my posts were very loving. I pray for Malachi. I ask him to come back into the Church. I’m not sure how much more inviting I can be with letting him know the truth.
 
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tomaskovarik:
Your response to our friend (with his first posted message), who honestly shared his feelings with us, was rather inappropriate, don’t you think? Christians should be inviting, kind and non-judgmental, but your response shows the absence of that.
Plus, the most powerful thing is NOT the Eucharist, but love. Long way to learn my friend 🙂
Yes. Who are you talking to? I guess I automatically assumed it was me. Anyway. Did anyone else think my post was “attacking?” If so, sorry again. Too bad we don’t get the non-verbal communication queues through this electronic medium! 🙂
 
Hi, me Tomas again.
I was talking about that person who was unkind to the originator of this threat. Maybe I should have used the “quote” button instead of the “reply” button? (I am also new to this).
Anyway, sometimes things sound differently when written (one cannot see your face as he/she reads your lines) and so that person’s reply (which I found unkind) may not have been intended that way.
If someone strays from the church and does many bad things and then (led by the Holy Spirit) turns around, that person should be applauded and welcome, pretty much as Jesus likened this to the lost sheep.
This site, by the way, appears to be incredibly helpful (want to hear my story?) and I am very happy that I found it, thanx to you all guys!!!
 
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tomaskovarik:
Hi, me Tomas again.
I was talking about that person who was unkind to the originator of this threat. Maybe I should have used the “quote” button instead of the “reply” button? (I am also new to this).
Anyway, sometimes things sound differently when written (one cannot see your face as he/she reads your lines) and so that person’s reply (which I found unkind) may not have been intended that way.
If someone strays from the church and does many bad things and then (led by the Holy Spirit) turns around, that person should be applauded and welcome, pretty much as Jesus likened this to the lost sheep.
This site, by the way, appears to be incredibly helpful (want to hear my story?) and I am very happy that I found it, thanx to you all guys!!!
Thomas. I would love to hear your story! Also, even if you don’t include the quote you are responding to, you can include the person’s screen name “upper left hand of the dialogue box” and the post number, “upper right hand of the dialogue box” that will help clear up any confusion when you respond to a particular post. God Bless! Look forward to hearing your conversion story!
 
I guess it should be no surprise to me that much of the convincing evidence of history has escaped the sight of so many catholics and noncatholics. But, history speaks for itself. Throught the history of the Church it has been attacked persecuted and reviled both by those without and within. The Church fathers themselves talk about this, and Jesus Himself said it would be so. This most wonderful Church has produced so many beautiful souls deeply in love with God and so deeply I might add that they died for it.
The institution that Jesus created, He left to men and men are all sinners. Jesus also said that schisms would occur and woe be to that man through whom it came. I challenge anyone to find a church other than the Catholic Church which can trace its history to the apostles. All christianity at some point sprang from the Catholic Church at some point in its 2000 year history.
The beauty of the Church is something beyond human capacity to create. Yes it is true when the human element is focused on terrible sores appear, but what can we expect from sinners. When the Bible, which most protestants hold as the key to salvation, is read through the eyes of the Catholic Church, Gods beauty and immense love become vivid and undeniable. ex: It was through the eating of the fruit of the forbidden tree of life that sin entered the world, and it is through our eating of fruit of the redeeming cross that we obtain that lost life.
Why do protestants demand on relying on the opinion of Luther or Calvin or Zwinglie? When much greater minds such as Augustine, Aquinas, Cyprian profess a more reliable doctrine. Or again are we to believe that Christians wandered amiss for 1500 years until these “supposedly wise schimatics” came to reclaim christianity.
 
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tomaskovarik:
Your response to our friend (with his first posted message), who honestly shared his feelings with us, was rather inappropriate, don’t you think? Christians should be inviting, kind and non-judgmental, but your response shows the absence of that.
Plus, the most powerful thing is NOT the Eucharist, but love. Long way to learn my friend 🙂
I am sorry that you feel this way apparently you cannot see the immense love which Gods has done here. His desire to be with man was so great that He became one of us and before assending to the Father, He who created all things turned nature on its head by changing bread into his body while at the same time keeping the accidents in tact to appease of human frailty and then wine into his blood of the new covenant to continue to be with us by ivoking a mystery which we cannot completely comprehend except through absolute love.
 
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St.Eric:
Thomas. I would love to hear your story! Also, even if you don’t include the quote you are responding to, you can include the person’s screen name “upper left hand of the dialogue box” and the post number, “upper right hand of the dialogue box” that will help clear up any confusion when you respond to a particular post. God Bless! Look forward to hearing your conversion story!
You know what, it seems like I was replying to someone from a different site, I cannot find “that guy” anymore, or am I hallucinating? OK, I am going to try to open a new threat (describing my conversion from communist style atheism to christianity and catholicism) so that I don’t interrupt the interesting flow of this threat, I hope it is OK with you guys. Correct me if I do it wrong.
Here we go…(opening new threat)
 
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malachi_a_serva:
My face to face confessions never happened in the coffessional. Because there was that bearer. I would go to the priest in the room adjacet to where he goers into his side of the confessional.

Not saying you don’t belive me, just that in all my years of watching TV, never did I ever see a “face to face” confession. All done in the confessional…with that bearer that has holes and you can kinda see through.
Whats your point? Really? Because on TV and in the Movies Confessions are always done behind a screen means what?

As a convert to the Catholic Church I have done both behind the screen, or curtian and face to face, both are allowed
 
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