Fundamentalist Mindset

[CyberAngel]

*Pro 3:6 In all thy ways think on him, and he will direct thy steps. *

Without the Holy Spirit to guide as and without the gift of teaching
how could one understand the scriptures?
I had to change my doctrines or at least refine them many times during the past two decades.
*Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. *

Yes, so did I, until I found them, to my own surprise, agreeing with the CC.

What has this have to do with the subject?
Are you implying Catholics do not have the Holy Spirit?
Do you beleive the Holy Spirit leads many people to the CC?

If you read the previous messages you should then understand why my text is still relevant to the subject at hand. I’m contradicting myself on wondering that I might be a fundamentalist.

I think fhansen understood me.
No reference to ANY Church about the Holy Spirit (having/not).
I think that Holy Spirit is guiding us towards Christ.
Jesus can be found in OT+NT and in our hearts.

 

[minkymurph]

I have been remiss to point out there is the Holy Spirit who upholds us in our circumstances. That’s where faith comes into the equation.

In mixed marriages there is someone who will have to compromise their beliefs there is no way around it.

I would like to respond to this but I don’t want to go off the topic of the thread, so I will try tie my response in with the topic of the thread.

To tie it in with the thread, what would be the psychological, emotional, or other reason why one should be attracted to the belief you have outlined above - that in mixed marriages someone will have to compromise their beliefs and there is no way around it? Can you give me an example of a belief you feel would need to compromised in a ‘mixed’ marriage?

The reason I ask why the attraction, is why would someone be attracted to this belief when when there is living proof many have found ways around it and not compromised their beliefs? If a couple don’t have children, I would say no compromise is needed as both are free to pursue their respective traditions freely, but I agree children present a greater challenge.

However, does it not depend on what beliefs the couple hold? Is it not true to say there is a difference between compromise and accommodation and as such, is not true to say it is also dependent on to what extent those beliefs can be accommodated?

 

[JustaServant]

How then do you plan on evangelizing them with desparaging remarks?

Let me elaborate a little more here.
When one has experienced fundamentalism as I have, you see people manipulated and confused, and you try to warn them without making “desparaging remarks”, you find very quickly they have put mental “fences” up to prevent information from being recieved.
In my own situation, I had to be “harmed” before I could see the light. Its like medicine, it tastes terrible, but there is no other way of getting better and skip the momentary “bad taste”.
Getting unplugged from the matrix is scary. Suddenly being detached from the “power-source” that you’ve been hooked up to for so long is scary, you feel lost.
They have grown accustomed to letting someone else think for them, they feel SAFE.
So, if you feel we are insulting fundamentalists, we’re not. We are insulting fundamentalism, not fundamentalists.
Years ago, when I was young and stupid, I went “soul winning” with the preacher. He explained his “method” very simply. “Bring them down (convince them they are ‘not saved’) and then raise them up (get them to say a sinner’s prayer and ‘get saved’)”
In a very real sense, the same tactic must be used to counter this false gospel.
Bring them down (expose the lies of fundamentalism) and then raise them up (show them the exit door is not as scary as they imagine).
My heart goes out to people trapped in this system. They are mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and socially dwarfed. Thier potential as human beings is being manipulated by the self-serving leaders of fundamentalism. Thier families are ripped apart.
I wish there were some other way of removing them from this horrific system.
But there simply isn’t.
Take it from someone who has been there.

 

[minkymurph]

I would like to add something at this point, as it has not yet been mentioned - (I think!)

Another reason I would put forward as to why some are attracted to fundamentalism is purely and simply, as with any other religion, because they belief it is true.

Having said that, would someone be attracted to fundamentalism and not believe it is true? I would say yes. Reason being, I would question whether some, and I emphasize the ‘some’ fundamentalists even believe in God. Therefore, the psychological/emotional reasons for the attraction are more significant. That phenomenon is not perhaps unique to fundamentalism. However, small groups affords those who desire to, for example, exploit others more opportunity.

 

[maltmom]

Liberal: a fundamentalist is one who doesn’t accept my new interpretation
Fundamentalist: a liberal is anyone not agreeing to my PERFECT preaching
Conservative: I’m not belonging to either group above

 

[johnnyjones]

As I have said numerous times in the thread, fundamentalism is very non-sectarian. It infects Catholics and Protestants.
Now, you mention rote reading. Do you mean memorization? Because that is the one aspect of fundamentalism that has a plus to it. There are many verses that remain in my memory and often arise during homilies. Catholics would do well to train kids in Bible memorization, IMO.

Rote: A fixed mechanical way of doing something. That was intended meaning but the second meaning which is memory without thought is not always helpful either. In Fundamentalism just remembering a chapter and verse comes in handy but is a road block with verses that need exegesis. Think of the verses that a Protestant could memorize and use to literally pound a certain anti catholic viewpoint. Pure memorization for a Catholic (rote) is not helpful unless one has substantive understanding of the verse (and chapter). Think of 1 Tim. 2:5 among many others that support a Protestant view but need expounding upon to support Catholic doctrine. The Fundamentalist is often locked into words that jump off the page without context.

 

[JustaServant]

So, so, SO true.
But you can take this psychological logic a step further.
What you say here and experienced doesn’t only apply to fundamentalism…these mental manipulations are used in many religions, fundamental or not, to get a person to believe and follow something/someone.
Even in subtle ways, the same tactics are there and are just as strong, overwhelming, and effective–maybe even more so because they are more subtle and it’s more difficult to recognize the maneuvers.

Excellant. Now we got the car back on the road and moving.
The “Fundamentalist mindset” can affect all religions and non-religious.
There is “political fundamentalism” as well, which exibits the same exact tactics and philosophy of religious fundamentalism.

 

[JustaServant]

I would like to add something at this point, as it has not yet been mentioned - (I think!)

Another reason I would put forward as to why some are attracted to fundamentalism is purely and simply, as with any other religion, because they belief it is true.

Having said that, would someone be attracted to fundamentalism and not believe it is true? I would say yes. Reason being, I would question whether some, and I emphasize the ‘some’ fundamentalists even believe in God. Therefore, the psychological/emotional reasons for the attraction are more significant. That phenomenon is not perhaps unique to fundamentalism. However, small groups affords those who desire to, for example, exploit others more opportunity.

The true test of whether someone truly believes what they say is revealed in thier actions. That is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the church pew. Does the life fundamentalists describe play out in the real world?
It never did in my experience.

 

[Contarini]

Having said that, would someone be attracted to fundamentalism and not believe it is true? I would say yes. Reason being, I would question whether some, and I emphasize the ‘some’ fundamentalists even believe in God.

What is your reason for this?

I’m sure that there are many fundamentalists who have more doubt than their version of religion explicitly allows for, but that doesn’t seem to be what you are saying.

Edwin

 

[minkymurph]

What is your reason for this?

I’m sure that there are many fundamentalists who have more doubt than their version of religion explicitly allows for, but that doesn’t seem to be what you are saying.

Edwin

No it’s not what I’m saying. We all experience doubt and it’s perfectly normal.

As Justaservant said, the true test of whether someone truly believes what they say is revealed in their actions. It is because of the actions of some, and I stress the some, - and I am glad to say I believe they are in the minority - whose actions have led me to wonder not only if they really belief what they profess to, but if they believe in God at all.

For instance, without going into detail, I know someone who could be described as a ‘fundamentalist,’ and holds a prominent position in his church. He makes a practice of lying. Now if we are honest, we all lie at times for various reasons - to get ourselves out of a sticky situation, embarrassment or because we don’t want to hurt someone. This guy makes a practice of telling malicious, hurtful lies to and about people who have done him no harm, (not that it could be justified if they had, but it could be explained) has been doing so for years, and is fully aware they are lies. On occasion he has been confronted with his lies, and he just tells more lies. He is also devious and dishonest in his dealings with people, even his own family. I can honestly say, he is the worst person I have ever had the misfortune to meet. There is nothing good I could say about him, and that’s coming from someone who can say good things about people who have committed murder. It made me wonder, does this guy never consider the fact that some day he himself will come face to face with God and have to explain why he spent his life weaving such a vicious web of lies? The only way I can explain it, is not only does not truly believe what he professes to, but I don’t think he even believes in God. How could he? That just doesn’t make sense to me.

Now, he is someone who to me is attracted to fundamentalism for his own ends.

 

[stewstew03]

But at the same time, if you don’t do such and such–and indeed, if you don’t fit certain specific cultural patterns (which may include such things as a clean-cut appearance, a firm handshake, a love of sports and hunting, etc., if you are a fundamentalist man, at least in the rural South–obviously women have their own set of expectations)–you may be suspected of being “fake.”

I agree with this. I’ve tried to make a similar point before in relation to Southern Baptists, who see “obedience to God’s word” as evidence of one’s faith (going to church, tithing, praying, etc.). Catholics, unlike most Southern Baptists (and perhaps fundamentalists), are willing to admit that faith AND works are necessary for salvation. Baptists will call salvation into question, however, when works are deficient in the life of a believer (i.e., one who fails to go to church, or drinks heavily, or doesn’t tithe, etc.).

 

[jericho777]

Let me elaborate a little more here.
When one has experienced fundamentalism as I have, you see people manipulated and confused, and you try to warn them without making “desparaging remarks”, you find very quickly they have put mental “fences” up to prevent information from being recieved.
In my own situation, I had to be “harmed” before I could see the light. Its like medicine, it tastes terrible, but there is no other way of getting better and skip the momentary “bad taste”.
Getting unplugged from the matrix is scary. Suddenly being detached from the “power-source” that you’ve been hooked up to for so long is scary, you feel lost.
They have grown accustomed to letting someone else think for them, they feel SAFE.
So, if you feel we are insulting fundamentalists, we’re not. We are insulting fundamentalism, not fundamentalists.
Years ago, when I was young and stupid, I went “soul winning” with the preacher. He explained his “method” very simply. “Bring them down (convince them they are ‘not saved’) and then raise them up (get them to say a sinner’s prayer and ‘get saved’)”
In a very real sense, the same tactic must be used to counter this false gospel.
Bring them down (expose the lies of fundamentalism) and then raise them up (show them the exit door is not as scary as they imagine).
My heart goes out to people trapped in this system. They are mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and socially dwarfed. Thier potential as human beings is being manipulated by the self-serving leaders of fundamentalism. Thier families are ripped apart.
I wish there were some other way of removing them from this horrific system.
But there simply isn’t.
Take it from someone who has been there.

When you insult someones beleif system they kinda take it personally. Insert the word catholic and catholicism in place of fundamentalist and fundamentalism and you will see what I am saying.

A couple of questions if you please.

What is the method you use to win souls now? How do you present the gospel so people will respond?

 

[jericho777]

JustaServant should you consider there would be a difference between first gen and generational fundamentalism? Why were you attracted to them?

 

[JustaServant]

No it’s not what I’m saying. We all experience doubt and it’s perfectly normal.

As Justaservant said, the true test of whether someone truly believes what they say is revealed in their actions. It is because of the actions of some, and I stress the some, - and I am glad to say I believe they are in the minority - whose actions have led me to wonder not only if they really belief what they profess to, but if they believe in God at all.

For instance, without going into detail, I know someone who could be described as a ‘fundamentalist,’ and holds a prominent position in his church. He makes a practice of lying. Now if we are honest, we all lie at times for various reasons - to get ourselves out of a sticky situation, embarrassment or because we don’t want to hurt someone. This guy makes a practice of telling malicious, hurtful lies to and about people who have done him no harm, (not that it could be justified if they had, but it could be explained) has been doing so for years, and is fully aware they are lies. On occasion he has been confronted with his lies, and he just tells more lies. He is also devious and dishonest in his dealings with people, even his own family. I can honestly say, he is the worst person I have ever had the misfortune to meet. There is nothing good I could say about him, and that’s coming from someone who can say good things about people who have committed murder. It made me wonder, does this guy never consider the fact that some day he himself will come face to face with God and have to explain why he spent his life weaving such a vicious web of lies? The only way I can explain it, is not only does not truly believe what he professes to, but I don’t think he even believes in God. How could he? That just doesn’t make sense to me.

Now, he is someone who to me is attracted to fundamentalism for his own ends.

The person you describe sounds like he has a character issue. He might just be a complete phony. Fundamentalism likes to think it has no “nominal Christians”, but they are not immune to it anymore than any other religion is.

 

[JustaServant]

I agree with this. I’ve tried to make a similar point before in relation to Southern Baptists, who see “obedience to God’s word” as evidence of one’s faith (going to church, tithing, praying, etc.). Catholics, unlike most Southern Baptists (and perhaps fundamentalists), are willing to admit that faith AND works are necessary for salvation. Baptists will call salvation into question, however, when works are deficient in the life of a believer (i.e., one who fails to go to church, or drinks heavily, or doesn’t tithe, etc.).

But they look at salvation as a once for all zap, not an ongoing process. So they will preach OSAS, but when the person shows no fruit, they come up with a new acronym:
NSITFP, never saved in the first place.

 

[stewstew03]

But they look at salvation as a once for all zap, not an ongoing process. So they will preach OSAS, but when the person shows no fruit, they come up with a new acronym:
NSITFP, never saved in the first place.

Once Saved Always Saved really means “saved if you persevere to the end.”

 

[fhansen]

Once Saved Always Saved really means “saved if you persevere to the end.”

OSAS means you’re guaranteed to persevere to the end, actually known as “final perseverance”.

 

[Contarini]

OSAS means you’re guaranteed to persevere to the end, actually known as “final perseverance”.

Right, but the problem is with the referent of “you.” There are two ways you can go with this:

1. You can define the referent objectively so that a person really can know that he/she is one of those who will persevere. This necessarily leads to antinomianism–the view that a truly saved person may live in wickedness for years and die unrepentant, and still go to heaven. This is held by some OSAS advocates–mostly Southern Baptists in my experience–but is repellent to the vast majority of Christians, including OSAS advocates.
2. You can admit that it’s possible for a person to make a mistake and think he/she is “saved” when that’s not really the case. But this undermines the supposed assurance provided by the doctrine.

The issue of assurance generally–not just OSAS but including that aspect of the Reformed understanding of assurance–is a point where I find it very hard to be fair to Protestantism, because it just doesn’t make sense to me either logically or practically.

Edwin

 

[MJE]

Catholic fundamentalists . . . more Catholic then the Pope?

 

[stewstew03]

OSAS means you’re guaranteed to persevere to the end, actually known as “final perseverance”.

OSAS means you are guaranteed to persevere to the end, but only IF you have the right relationship with God.

OSAS begins with saying the sinner’s prayer, but there are plenty of qualifiers such as:

1. Turning away from your sin (repenting);
2. Being set apart for God (obedience);
3. Living a moral life (sanctification); and
4. Demonstrating spiritual maturity (also sanctification).

So, the presence of the things provides evidence of a “true” believer who is guaranteed to persevere to the end. The absence of repentance and morality demonstrates that the believer has not yet given his life to God.

Source: Baptist Faith and Message, Southern Baptist Convention.