Fundamentalist's belief that wine drinking was wrong.

[deb1]

Hello,

On another thread a person posted a very long post on why alcohol is wrong and why Jesus didn’t drink it. I am hoping that he/she will continue the discussion here. His/her post was three of these boxes that we write in long so I am paraphrasing one of his/her reasons that alcohol drinking is wrong.

He/she states that creating wine requires human intervention. I contend that this is wrong because fruit fallen from a tree can, by itself, produce alcohol.

He/she also states-again paraphrasing-that Jesus couldn’t have drank alcohol because drinking alcohol was a sin and Jesus didn’t sin. This is a circular arguement that only proves that the poster truely believes that drinking alcohol was a sin.

Hopefully this person will post here.

 

[deb1]

The reaction of some fundamentalists against alcohol is apparently a twentieth century occurence. I got these quotes off a web site entitled** free beer**. It is a very, very protestant website and I will post a link to it at the bottom of this post.

“Nature would certainly be satisfied with water to drink; and therefore the addition of wine is owing to God’s superabundant liberality… It is permissible to use wine not only for necessity, but also to make us merry.” John Calvin, Commentary on the Psalms. Psalm 104:15.

Did you know that it was common for ministers to be paid in alcoholic beverages? John Calvin was often paid in wine. Teetotalers may wish to recall that Methodists were often paid in rum!

But while I sat and drank beer****with Philip and Amsdorf, God dealt the papacy a mighty blow." Martin Luther

Did you know the Mayflower carried more wine and more beer than fresh water, but the supplies of the former had run out before the latter?

Here is the website:

members.aol.com/Dbix7/beer.html

 

[JOHNYJ]

Jesus made wine,it wasn’t grape juice,it was wine. He also drank wine all of his lifeThat is a fact. So how any christian can be opposed to responsible drinking makes no sense.

 

[RonRule]

The basic hermeneutical principle he’s using is that if wine is mentioned in the scriptures, look at the “context”: if it is describing a good quality, it must be referring to grape juice. If it is describing a bad quality, it must be referring to wine.

It makes much more sense to say that wine is good; the abuse of wine is bad. (just like food, sex, entertainment, love, and anything else that God made).

Here is a talk I gave at my parents ‘church’ a few years ago on the use and abuse of wine:

Sobriety

 

[Scott_Waddell]

deb1:

Did you know that it was common for ministers to be paid in alcoholic beverages? John Calvin was often paid in wine. Teetotalers may wish to recall that Methodists were often paid in rum!

http://members.aol.com/Dbix7/beer.html

In Virginia, many ministers were paid in tobacco and even gave homilies asking God for good tobacco harvest, admonishing farmers not to cheat by adulterating the tobacco, etc.

So that is alcohol and tobacco. Now all we need is an example of a minister being paid in firearms.

Scott

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe in NT times there was a word or phrase that applied specifically to unfermented wine, and the NT does not use it, but uses the normal word for wine. Another example of biblical perspecuity getting the better of perspecuity-touting fundamentalists.

 

[deb1]

Scott Waddell:

In Virginia, many ministers were paid in tobacco and even gave homilies asking God for good tobacco harvest, admonishing farmers not to cheat by adulterating the tobacco, etc.

So that is alcohol and tobacco. Now all we need is an example of a minister being paid in firearms.

Scott

Maybe we could start a tradition. Although, I am not certain what my priest would say if we gave him a crate full of automatic weapons.

 

[John_Paul_III]

As a southern baptist i was taught that the wine mentioned in the bible that Jesus drank was not fermented.

Now this is a man taught belief that is not scripture

one of the many contradictions of the southern baptist

They also taught that drinking was wrong because being drunk is a sin, but not all drinkers get drunk, and there are versus in the bible supporting drinking the hard drink.

If we continued to use this rational thinking, then we should abstain from eating because gluttony is a sin.

They attack us for our traditions when they center there doctrine on their own man made teachings, kinda of ironic hey

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hi all, there is another link for your information:

Did Jesus drink wine?..I think not and neither should we…

If no “Drunkards” see the Kingdon of God, how does one now where to draw the line. Obviously, gross intoxication is a given…but what about 1 or 2 glasses…we all know that it is a fact that 1 glass creates a change…it relaxes etc…when does one draw the line to “drunkard”.

From the studies I read, yes, various texts in their context refer to either unfermented or fermented wine. Fermented being described with the same words that describes “corruption”.

…

 

[IanS]

I don’t believe there is anything in the Bible to indicate that drinking any alcohol in moderation is a sin. It also clearly states that Jesus drank wine and did not find it to be a sin. However, it does state that being a drunkard or chasing after alcohol with passion is a sin. Here are some examples:

Gn 27:25: Then he said, “Bring it to me, that I may eat of my son’s game and bless you.” So he brought it to him, and he ate; and he brought him wine, and he drank.

Dt 14:26: …and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Prov 1:1: Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

Eccl 9:7: Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already approved what you do.

Is 25:6: On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined.

Is 5:11: Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening till wine inflames them!

Is 5:22: Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine, and valiant men in mixing strong drink,

Lk7:33: For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine; and you say, He has a demon.' **34: The Son of man has come eating and drinking; and you say, Behold, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ **

Jn 2:2-10 Miracle at Cana

Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit,

1 Tim 5:23: No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

Mt 26: And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you;
28: for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
**29: I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” **

 

[Jayson]

All of this type of speculation comes from intepreting the bible without a proper knowledge of the context in which it was written.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

malachi_a_serva:

If no “Drunkards” see the Kingdon of God, how does one now where to draw the line. Obviously, gross intoxication is a given…but what about 1 or 2 glasses…we all know that it is a fact that 1 glass creates a change…it relaxes etc…when does one draw the line to “drunkard”.

…

How does one draw the line? By using God-given prudential judgement. By fostering the cardinal virtue of temperance and bearing the fruit of moderation. In other words, acting like a child of God and not His lap-dog whom He will whack with a heavenly rolled-up newspaper for eating certain kinds of kibble.

Scott

 

[deb1]

JOHNYJ:

Jesus made wine,it wasn’t grape juice,it was wine. He also drank wine all of his lifeThat is a fact. So how any christian can be opposed to responsible drinking makes no sense.

There are those Christians who will claim that Jesus didn’t drink wine and that he didn’t turn the water into wine but grape juice. There circular reasoning is that alcohol drinking is a sin, Jesus didn’t sin, so therefore Jesus didn’t partake of alcohol. This sounds completly illogical to us but it is a mindset that you have to be aware of when you are discussing such an issue with a fundamentalists.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Deb, drinking a glass of wine at dinner is not a sin – in fact it has medical advantages. Drunkiness is a sin.

Ephesians 5:18
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

This text above does not say do not drink wine. It says don’t get drunk on wine.

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

This verse above does not justify getting drunk. It tells tim to use wine for medical purposes.

I Cor 11
20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat. 21As you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anyone else. One remains hungry and another gets drunk. 22Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you think so little of God’s church that you shame those in it who have nothing? What should I say to you? Should I praise you for that? Certainly not!

How does one get drunk on grape juice?

Matthew 9:17
Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Matthew 21:33
The Parable of the Tenants ] "Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.

Luke 5:38
No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins.

Luke 5:39
And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’ "

Luke 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’

John 2:1
Jesus Changes Water to Wine ] On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

John 2:9
They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

John 4:46
Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum.

Romans 14:21
It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

The do not drink wine in protestant circles is a hangover from prohibition and from the holiness movement.

Also, John 6

The four cups are from Mishna Pesachim 10:1. It is a rabbinical decree , based on the four expressions of redemption in Exodus 6:6-7 - (source: Talmud Yerushalmi 10:1).

Apparently, it was instituted in the time of the Great Assembly (“Anshei Knesset HaGedolah”), whose period extended from Ezra to the beginning of the Tannaic era.

With blessings from Jerusalem,

Rabbi Shraga Simmons

judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_passover_4cups.htm

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi all, there is another link for your information:

Did Jesus drink wine?..I think not and neither should we…

If no “Drunkards” see the Kingdon of God, how does one now where to draw the line. Obviously, gross intoxication is a given…but what about 1 or 2 glasses…we all know that it is a fact that 1 glass creates a change…it relaxes etc…when does one draw the line to “drunkard”.

From the studies I read, yes, various texts in their context refer to either unfermented or fermented wine. Fermented being described with the same words that describes “corruption”.

…

A reliable method of keeping grape juice from fermenting was not invented until 1893 by Welch. Anyone with fruit trees knows that the fruit will ripen and turn alcoholic if left on the ground.

Let’s do an experiment. Make grape juice in the method that you believe that the ancient Hebrews used. Do it during the same month that their grape harvest would have occured. Then without using modern vaccum seal technology or refrigeration or any modern method of keeping things fresh, store the grape juice. When Easter or Passover comes about, open the jars-or skins-and drink the product. You are going to discover alcohol, especially if you live in a warm climate.

Why do you think Jesus didn’t drink wine?

 

[deb1]

malachi_a_serva:

If no “Drunkards” see the Kingdon of God, how does one now where to draw the line. Obviously, gross intoxication is a given…but what about 1 or 2 glasses…we all know that it is a fact that 1 glass creates a change…it relaxes etc…when does one draw the line to “drunkard”.

…

Simply because wine makes us relax does not mean that it is a sin. Why would this be wrong.

While sitting in the doctor’s office waiting for my hubby, I read an interesting article. A few years back red wine was heralded as being good for the heart. People claimed that grape juice could give you the same benifits so the researchers began to study the effects of alcohol drinking. Guess what they found? Any moderate alcohol drinking-two drinks a day for a grown man-produces health benifits. They discovered that Germans drinking beer, Japenese drinking saki and French drinking wine all have the same health benifits!!

Oh, by the way. Welcome. I am glad that you chose to post.

 

[IanS]

Listen, I have no problem with anyone who wants to err on the side of safety and not drink to avoid sin. I can totally respect that.

However, I have some close relatives that have jumped on the fundamentalist/drinking is a sin/we’re holier than thou, band wagon over the last couple years. At every family function I can feel them staring at me every time I open a beer, and God forbid I poor a CC/7 or something, I just might start to grow horns out of my head.

To be honest with you, enjoy hanging around my relatives that don’t even go to church more than the fundamentalists. At least I can enjoy talking to them without having to worry about them pointing and whispering to each other over every little move I make. I don’t recall Christ ever acting like that, wine or no wine!

I’m not saying all fundamentalists are like this. It’s just been my experience.

 

[sententia]

lol. The reports of drunk moose/deer etc every year are precisely because fallen fruit DOES ferment…and then the animals eat it, and well…

 

[catholic-rcia]

When these things become your god, this is where you step over the line, hopefully into confession.

Jayson:

All of this type of speculation comes from intepreting the bible without a proper knowledge of the context in which it was written.

This is so true, One on this board (LDS) once said that the Historical context of the Bible is not important.

These things are changed, such as saying alcohol is evil in order to be different than Catholics, to set themselves apart from Catholics. As far as the LDS are concerned for example, it is easy to point out sin that appears to them to be obvious because they have been taught these things (this includes us Catholics as well in many instances).

"I would never do that so I must be better, better informed etc… “ This is a dangerouse path to go down!

The Pharisees even went as far as calling Jesus a sinner because he picked grain on Sunday, because he consorted with sinners, and yes because he drank strong wine. This is all in the same light. It’s what we all do in one way or another when we play little gods. Jesus came and blew this all away, enough is enough so to speak. He teaches us that we can follow the law to a point where the law rules us instead of allowing God to rule us, where even common sense can be thrown out as waste. . It’s not what you eat or drink that makes you a sinner, its what is inside that does this.

Jesus even goes as far as telling us all that even the prostitutes and Tax Collectors are getting into heaven before those who Judge (us). God gave us wine so that we can celebrate life in a fuller sense. We are simply asked to be good stewards when we use it. Like anything in this life. Things from God such as wine always is good as it comes from God, its what we do with it that can makes it a bad thing. But God being God will always use the bad to make a good come out of it ,…so no worries.

It has always been at the table at the meal that we have found Jesus, in the breaking of the bread, when the LDS for instance break the bread it is as if children are imitating their parents, not really knowing what is taking place in His Church established, but none the less copying it, until one discovers the true meaning behind this breaking of the bread, the very center of our Mass, coming to the table so that we can count only on Him. Coming to learn to die to ourselves, our judgments of others etc…

The person who helped me become Catholic was a drunk 12 years ago. It was not until he found himself face down in the snow behind his barn that he came to ask Christ for help. I thank God for this one every day, he is my mentor on earth who helped point me to Christ. I have to say this in all honesty, this alcoholic helped me find Christ and I love him and his family very much, why? Becuase Christ loveS me. If I could ever be as humble as this one I would be able to help others as well. I have not yet found myself face down in the snow so to speak. You see some could have pointed to him 12 years back and said many things. As for myself I see Christ is all things, even when Christ seems to appear as far off as one might think. We all need to be careful in our judgments. Nothing wrong with wine in moderation, we all need to dig deeper.

 

[IanS]

sententia:

lol. The reports of drunk moose/deer etc every year are precisely because fallen fruit DOES ferment…and then the animals eat it, and well…

So true. I remember our old house had crabapple trees. Every fall/winter we would see drunk birds stumbling around the back yard. I would run out in the yard and judge them all to be sinners, but I guess they just didn’t want to be saved.