Funeral Vestments?

[Phemie]

It’s in the text that you quoted. Black is the color specified in the typical edition of the GIRM (so is violet). White is an adaptation approved for the US (and also Canada)–it’s not a universal norm. You just quoted the words. I’m confused as to how you can’t find them.

I think several of us are saying the same thing, and getting frustrated in the process.

Several posts here (and maybe it’s the medium that’s to blame and a face to face conversation would have produced a different effect) have made it seem as though the Church says black is the official colour for funerals with violet (or white in the US and Canada) as an option but a much less desirable one.

None of the versions of the GIRM state that.

The universal GIRM gives two options, black and violet, with no indication whatsoever that black is preferred; the Canadian & American GIRMs add white to the options but again no indication that black is preferred.

The difference I guess is that we would say that black is not ‘the’ colour specified, it’s ‘a’ colour specified, along with one or two others that are equally fine to opt for depending on where you live.

 

[felsguy]

I’m always amazed at folks who think they can tell the priest or the bishop what they need to do, and then in addition, wave a document in their face.
I’ve worked in the Church for many years in 3 varied States, (west, Midwest & South) and also Ireland, and I have NEVER ONCE seen a priest take it well, bend from his original stance, or tolerate it in any form.
This is the thing about the forums: everyone is an expert, some even have the docs on their side, but in practice, the clergy make their own decisions. Whether we like it or not, whether it is to our preference or upbringing, or whether, in some rare occasions, that we are correct and others are wrong.

I always err on giving the priest the benefit of the doubt. Have I known some that are less than perfect? Sure. But I need someone to preside over my funeral Mass.
The Mass will be valid no matter who the person is that celebrates it or what color he wears, or what seminary he went to, or what kind of awful music that they play.
Of course I will have preferences, and I can write them down, give them to someone who will hand it to the priest and liturgist. Beyond that, out of my control.
I doubt I’ll be stopped at the door of heaven with a complaint from the Man upstairs about the funeral Mass.

Now everyone is going to say that’s not how it should be. Maybe it’s not, but it’s the way it is.
I had a dear priest friend that I believe to be a good and holy priest. He challenged the Bishop about a policy of the Diocese. The Bishop saw his point, acquiesced, and genuinely thanked him for bringing it to his attention.
And then transferred him to a remote part of Mexico for a period of 3 years, with little contact. My friend said “they forgot about me.” No they didn’t. They put him in a place where he could think about it. Right or wrong, it happened.

Lay people? We are called to obedience. You can have preferences. But you can’t tell the pastor what to do. It’s bad form. It’s very disrespectful. And the bottom line? It very seldom turns out well.

:twocents:
:compcoff:

Well said IMO and worth repeating periodically in other threads.

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[zab]

Well said IMO and worth repeating periodically in other threads.

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I second that

 

[zab]

Our pastor found some beautiful old vestments, including the black ones along with the stole and chalice veil, along with other items in the collection of parish artifacts. He wears it on All Souls Day at the Mass in the Extraordinary Form. He wore it at one funeral that I attended but his color of preference at funerals in the Ordinary Form seems to be violet. If a priest is interested in obtaining or wearing old vestments, he might want to check the place where parish artifacts are stored.

 

[FrDavid96]

I think several of us are saying the same thing, and getting frustrated in the process.

Several posts here (and maybe it’s the medium that’s to blame and a face to face conversation would have produced a different effect) have made it seem as though the Church says black is the official colour for funerals with violet (or white in the US and Canada) as an option but a much less desirable one.

None of the versions of the GIRM state that.

The universal GIRM gives two options, black and violet, with no indication whatsoever that black is preferred; the Canadian & American GIRMs add white to the options but again no indication that black is preferred.

The difference I guess is that we would say that black is not ‘the’ colour specified, it’s ‘a’ colour specified, along with one or two others that are equally fine to opt for depending on where you live.

OK. I’ll try again.

Black and violet are the universal norms for the Church.

White is not the universal norm, it is only a local adaptation, a variation from the norm, that was approved for the US and Canada.

Black and violet are the official (if one wants to use that word, ok) colors of the Church (capital “C”) for funerals. These 2 colors are the universal practice of the Church.

White is permitted at funerals, but only by special permission (that permission being that Rome approved the suggested adaptation proposed by the 2 bishops conferences).

The GIRMs for both Canada and the US even go so far as to specify this for white; each one clearly states that the option of white is only a local variation.

 

[Phemie]

OK. I’ll try again.

Black and violet are the universal norms for the Church.

White is not the universal norm, it is only a local adaptation, a variation from the norm, that was approved for the US and Canada.

Black and violet are the official (if one wants to use that word, ok) colors of the Church (capital “C”) for funerals. These 2 colors are the universal practice of the Church.

White is permitted at funerals, but only by special permission (that permission being that Rome approved the suggested adaptation proposed by the 2 bishops conferences).

The GIRMs for both Canada and the US even go so far as to specify this for white; each one clearly states that the option of white is only a local variation.

 

[Phemie]

OK. I’ll try again.

Black and violet are the universal norms for the Church.

White is not the universal norm, it is only a local adaptation, a variation from the norm, that was approved for the US and Canada.

Black and violet are the official (if one wants to use that word, ok) colors of the Church (capital “C”) for funerals. These 2 colors are the universal practice of the Church.

White is permitted at funerals, but only by special permission (that permission being that Rome approved the suggested adaptation proposed by the 2 bishops conferences).

The GIRMs for both Canada and the US even go so far as to specify this for white; each one clearly states that the option of white is only a local variation.

Which is exactly what I said.

Our only point is that in no case does the Church state that black is preferable.

 

[zab]

From the Vatican website under Sacred Vestments:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html#IV._SACRED_VESTMENTS

1. 
   *]Violet or purple is used in Advent and Lent. It may also be worn in Offices and Masses for the Dead (cf. below).
   *]Besides violet, white or black vestments may be worn at funeral services and at other Offices and Masses for the Dead in the dioceses of the United States of America.
   
   I still do not see where it says that black is the official color of vestment and that with special permission, white may be worn. If it is clearly stated somewhere in the universal G.I.R.M., why not post the quote to end any confusion? What is clearly stated is that violet may be worn, and besides violet, white or black vestments may be worn. No official color seems to be stated here. For the average lay person reading this, the use of the word “may” applies equally to black as it does to purple and white.