FURIOUS!! Priest wouldn't let me take communion while kneeling

[AltarMan]

JimG:

The norm for reception of Communion in the United States is standing.
Why not just follow the norm?

Ummmmm, because some people arrogantly feel that kneeling is “better”, despite what the Church instructs.

Typically the same people who go banannas over liturgical delicts and abuses…

 

[AltarMan]

fix:

It could also be a very humble, devout or misguided person. Where is all the charity then, or is it only for other folks?

I understand the “misguided” part and that’s why the counseling would need to be thorough.

However, please do not try to equate “humble” or “devout” with knowingly ignoring what the Church instructs.

 

[fix]

AltarMan:

I understand the “misguided” part and that’s why the counseling would need to be thorough.

However, please do not try to equate “humble” or “devout” with knowingly ignoring what the Church instructs.

I do not know the circumstances of each case.

 

[fix]

AltarMan:

Ummmmm, because some people arrogantly feel that kneeling is “better”, despite what the Church instructs.

Typically the same people who go banannas over liturgical delicts and abuses…

Arrogantly? That is charitable?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

AltarMan:

That must have been at Holy Cross Parish. Good old Fr. Mark. That gorgeous building now smells like a swimming pool because of the chlorene used in the huge spa/baptistery…

That’s him. I didn’t notice a smell, but then I was pretty horrified by what I was witnessing.

Holy Cross is also an example of a parish that could easily accomodate either kneeling or standing…or could if they hadn’t ripped out the altar rail of this amazing old church. You walk in, thinking,“Now this is what a Catholic church should look like.”

And then Mass starts.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

buffalo:

Where does the Church instruct otherwise? I just quoted RS, where it states that one can kneel or stand.

It doesn’t state that, it simply says that one cannot be refused Communion for kneeling. It isn’t an affirmation of a liberty, it’s simply saying that there is at least one way in which you cannot be penalized. In the face of being asked to stand, we’re supposed to stand. We’re wrong if we don’t. If we kneel and they refuse us Holy Communion, they’re wrong, too.

 

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

It doesn’t state that, it simply says that one cannot be refused Communion for kneeling. It isn’t an affirmation of a liberty, it’s simply saying that there is at least one way in which you cannot be penalized. In the face of being asked to stand, we’re supposed to stand. We’re wrong if we don’t. If we kneel and they refuse us Holy Communion, they’re wrong, too.

There is the GIRM, then there is a clarification from Rome on how the GIRM is to be interpreted. In that clarification it states one is not to be called disobedient if one kneels. If one is not to be called that, are they disobedient?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

GoLatin:

A person CANNOT be refused Holy Communion because he chooses to kneel. Correct! A person is NOT being disobedient if he continues to kneel. Incorrect! Again, we’re not given a choice, we simply don’t have a penalty enacted against us.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

fix:

There is the GIRM, then there is a clarification from Rome on how the GIRM is to be interpreted. In that clarification it states one is not to be called disobedient if one kneels. If one is not to be called that, are they disobedient?

Is there a copy of the clarification? Does anyone know if they say we have a right to kneel?

 

[buffalo]

JKirkLVNV:

It doesn’t state that, it simply says that one cannot be refused Communion for kneeling. It isn’t an affirmation of a liberty, it’s simply saying that there is at least one way in which you cannot be penalized. In the face of being asked to stand, we’re supposed to stand. We’re wrong if we don’t. If we kneel and they refuse us Holy Communion, they’re wrong, too.

Taking the GIRM and RS together I agree.

RS - “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined”,

RS - Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

The GIRM 2002 states that standing is the norm in the US. No one should be denied Communion for kneeling and that the faithful should be provided the proper reason and cathechesis for the norm. This should be handled pastorally.

The Priest making a spectacle through humiliation is questionable as to being pastoral.

 

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

Is there a copy of the clarification? Does anyone know if they say we have a right to kneel?

" . . . while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion" (emphasis added).catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4647

 

[JKirkLVNV]

"Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion"

Quote provided by Fix.

Bang, there you have it. The instruction of the Holy See is that we NOT be imposed upon for kneeling nor called disobedient. Question answered. Thanks, Fix!

 

[AltarMan]

This topic illustrates why the concerns of some about liturgical delicts and abuses are often ignored – because they are not consistant in their vigilence.

It’s horribly hypocritical to be vigilent of some abuses, while commiting others because one feels they know “better” than the Church.

 

[buffalo]

"Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion"

Quote provided by Fix.

Bang, there you have it. The instruction of the Holy See is that we NOT be imposed upon for kneeling nor called disobedient. Question answered. Thanks, Fix!

Thanks! I knew I read this before and I argued myself into agreement that one shouldn’t kneel. Sorry posters.

 

[AltarMan]

fix:
Try following the controlling document on this matter, the GIRM.

 

[totustuusmaria]

Here online are three documents from the Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum. I provide some quotations:

Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and - if the complaint is verified - that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future.
…
Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez

Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is “the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments”. In view of the law that “sacred” ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 ß 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: (quotation quoted above)

This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.

Can someone give even one quotation which gives either the parish priest or the bishop the authority to prohibit one of the faithful from kneeling to receive communion? Even one!

By the way, I know of no one who knees out of arogance–why should one have to be arrogant to kneel when kneeling is the proper posture of venerating the Most Holy Sacrement on the altar? Why has the GIRM reduced the reverence due to the Lord of Hosts before receiving him from kneeling to a slight bow of the head? We already have enough of a crisis of lack of faith in the Eucharist without them expending all their efforts prohibiting good Catholics from following the traditional (and, I dare say, very approprate) way of adoring the Lord.

Furthermore altar rails are not prohibited, so, how should someone stand when receiving at an altar rail?

Does anyone wonder that something like 70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence? We are doing everything we can to help them to by our bodily posture. Catholicism is sacremental. What posture you assume means something. Someone who kneels to receive communion is a witness who boldly proclaims: “This is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords! I am not just receiving bread.” In that way he should be commended and blessed, especially if he is persecuted. Christ promised persecution for those who witness to Him.

Thanks.

 

[buffalo]

Here online are three documents from the Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum. I provide some quotations:

Can someone give even one quotation which gives either the parish priest or the bishop the authority to prohibit one of the faithful from kneeling to receive communion? Even one!

By the way, I know of no one who knees out of arogance–why should one have to be arrogant to kneel when kneeling is the proper posture of venerating the Most Holy Sacrement on the altar? Why has the GIRM reduced the reverence due to the Lord of Hosts before receiving him from kneeling to a slight bow of the head? We already have enough of a crisis of lack of faith in the Eucharist without them expending all their efforts prohibiting good Catholics from following the traditional (and, I dare say, very approprate) way of adoring the Lord.

Furthermore altar rails are not prohibited, so, how should someone stand when receiving at an altar rail?

Does anyone wonder that something like 70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence? We are doing everything we can to help them to by our bodily posture. Catholicism is sacremental. What posture you assume means something. Someone who kneels to receive communion is a witness who boldly proclaims: “This is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords! I am not just receiving bread.” In that way he should be commended and blessed, especially if he is persecuted. Christ promised persecution for those who witness to Him.

Thanks.

One could postulate that standing and litugical innovation led to the decline of Mass attendance from over 70% pre VII to 25% today? “You will know them by their fruits”.

 

[malibu364]

Obviously, I’m angry, and I’m not what exaclty I should do about this.

Calm yourself down and get over it. Stand up and bow your head like the rest of us poor sheep do.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

AltarMan:

This topic illustrates why the concerns of some about liturgical delicts and abuses are often ignored – because they are not consistant in their vigilence.

It’s horribly hypocritical to be vigilent of some abuses, while commiting others because one feels they know “better” than the Church.

I wondered about that. Fundamentally, how is this different from holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer or the orans position utilized by the laity (I don’t do either, they’re merely examples, and the orans is actually quite an ancient practice).

 

[fix]

AltarMan:

Try following the controlling document on this matter, the GIRM.

The GIRM was clarified by the Curia in charge that is given authority by the pope. As the new document on homosexuals and ordination is a clarification of existing norm. The kneeling situation has a directive that clarifies the GIRM. Are we to be obedient only to the GIRM, even when the authentic interpreter has spoken?