Future of the SSPX

[Lormar]

Lomar, SO glad to hear this! :hug1: I am still praying for you. I am also still praying for the group here in VA as I promised.

 

[JReducation]

Perhaps he should pay a visit to them as well. They are as much in need as those in the prisons and the street because they are in a prison of a different kind and making.

That would be wonderful.

Hmmmmm maybe there is hope after all!
I cannot think of anything more needy and least than being irregular with Holy Mother Church. If Pope Francis really is the change we see and the humble man who reaches out to the disenfranchised and those who are turned off by the Church then the SSPX could be at the top of his list.

There is a difference here. The SSPX is disenfranchised by choice. The SSPX is not a victim of oppression and injustice. There are many times when people have certainly treated them unjustly. But the points that keep them outside of the mainstream are ideologies that they take and canonical crimes that they have committed.

I think it may be beneficial if he made a gesture to them. But I would not put them in the same group as those who live on the margins of society.

And they have been unusually quiet on the SSPX side of things. While other Traditional people have been slipping on their own froth over every thing the SSPX has been rather reserved. Especially for a group that has loved running to the media with leaked documents and statements. I could be wrong, they could release some rhetoric in the next few weeks that will make my post look foolish. (they have before) But I choose to be hopeful and charitable about it and assume the best!

I’m with you on this one. I’m impressed that they are quiet. I heard that they were told by Bishop Fellay that they were not to share their thoughts with the world via the media, including the Internet. I don’t know how true that is. I do know that this is one of the conditions that Archbishop DiNoia set for continuing dialog. I foresee Archbishop DiNoia being confirmed again to the same post, because he’s a Dominican. Jesuits, Dominicans and Franciscans work very well together and when they team up they are a formidable power.

The irony is that you are drawing on the parable Jesus and the wedding banquet which is traditionally looked at as being the inclusion of the gentiles after the Jews rejected. and you are placing the SSPX in the part of the Jews.
I appreciate the irony given some in the SSPX’s view on the Jewish faith.

That little detail about the Jews can be the pebble in Pope Francis’ black shoes. :yup:

The Jewish community in Argentina is very big and the Jewish/Catholic relations in South America are better than any other part of the world. South American Jews are not anti-Catholic and South American Catholics are not antisemitic.

 

[Iotaunum]

Happy Easter to everyone!

I have not been on this forum for a good while and just now I have been browsing the traditional section. I have been attending Mass at an SSPX Chapel for years now and I support the Society. I have been talking to many Priests and laity about the election of Pope Francis. This is what I gather so far:

Most people in and around the Society have a “wait and see” attitude. As with many others in the Church, most people in the traditionalist circles did not know much about Pope Francis before he was elected, or at least as much as they did about the other Cardinals. When the Habemus Papam announcement was made most people in traditional circles, like everyone else (including the media), scrambled to find out what he was like as a Cardinal and Bishop. Was he a conservative? a liberal? worldly? holy? etc. I can tell you personally from my own conversations with Priests and laity that the reactions are mixed. One priest I spoke with was full of hope that Pope Francis would hear the voice of God like St Francis before him ; “Go and rebuild my Church” - and that his much talked about humility would bring a new energy and piety into the Church. Another priest gave quite a different impression and seemed to suggest that things will only get worse for tradition, although he did not say much, again taking the “wait and see” attitude.

Laity also have mixed views. One woman told me that she thinks that Pope Francis will be able to restore faith in the Church to a degree since he is not mixed up in the bureaucracy in the Vatican and that the Powers that be will be bypassed to some extent. I also had a chance to talk to another layman from the Popes home country - although he does not attend an SSPX Mass. He had very negative views of the Pope from when he was a bishop - but I took these with a pinch of salt as he seems to share the bitterness that some of the media in Argentina are putting out. Besides, his issues were not really related to the faith as such.

I myself did not know much about the Pope when he was elected. My initial thoughts - and these are mine personally - were that the faith in his home country tends more towards liberalism than conservatism - and that the Jesuits have become a more liberal order since the 60’s. These views came to my mind in a general way from what I have read about the country and the theology and books written by Jesuits in recent years - which I have collected a great deal of. This was a generalization and I had no idea how that related to the Pope if at all.

The media; mainstream, traditionalist, liberal etc all pumped out stories about the Pope’s theology. If taken at face value; some stories sound encouraging, some not so. For example, I was glad when I heard the media say that the Pope was conservative, humble and that he stood firm on Catholic doctrines being debated by society today - on the other hand I was weary of reports showing how humble the Pope was as a Cardinal - showing pictures of him kneeling for the blessing of a protestant minister. I think most people can appreciate that for a “radical traditionalist” like myself things like this are somewhat unsettling.

One thing did come to my mind when it was announced that Cardinal Bergoglio had been elected. It was something that I had read that was written by Fr Nicholas Gruner. Most people know of Fr Gruner and his interest in promoting Fatima. I guess Fr Gruner is like Marmite; some people love him – some hate him. One diocesan priest actually told me they “feel sorry for him”? Well the reason that people hear of him and hold a view of him is usually based on the letters he sends out. He sends out information promoting Fatima and the Rosary, consecration etc to priests, bishops and Cardinals as well as laity. To be most effective he makes sure he sends letters to the Cardinals and bishops around the world. He did mention in the article a lot of negative feedback, a lot of indifference or silence and a lot of positive feedback. Cardinal Bergoglio fell into the positive feedback category and wrote back to Fr Gruner with a cordial reply indicating that he did say the fifteen decade rosary daily. I will have to search out that article again, but his name did stick in my mind and I recalled his devotion to the Rosary as I listened to his first announcement when he blessed the crowd from the balcony.

At the end of the day any Pope will be judged by his actions. Our Lord said that we are to judge a tree by its fruits. Some Popes were holier than others – some were more effective than others. I think one thing is important: the Pope fulfills a role – a job – in the Church.

To be a good Pope is not necessarily to be a Saint, likewise to be holy is not the equivalent of being a good Pope. It would be like a bank manager. He could be the most decent person you have ever met. Kind and generous and full of virtue – but he may be ineffective and loss money, make bad decisions and end up bankrupt. Likewise there could be a bank manager who is immoral but runs the bank the way it should be run and makes it successful and grow. The analogy is imperfect owing to the fact that the Church is a divine institution – but you can see my point.

So when someone asks me personally; “what do you think of the new Pope” – I would say: Pope Francis as a person seems very humble and seems to have a strong faith as a Pope in general, I will have to wait and see. I think something that we can all agree on – traditionalist or not – is that the Pope needs our prayers and has some very difficult decisions to make. Lets pray that his pontificate is for the good of the Church and the Glory of God.

St Francis of Assisi, pray for Pope Francis. Pope St Pius X, pray for your successor.

 

[JReducation]

Happy Easter to everyone!

I have not been on this forum for a good while and just now I have been browsing the traditional section. I have been attending Mass at an SSPX Chapel for years now and I support the Society. I have been talking to many Priests and laity about the election of Pope Francis. This is what I gather so far:

Most people in and around the Society have a “wait and see” attitude. As with many others in the Church, most people in the traditionalist circles did not know much about Pope Francis before he was elected, or at least as much as they did about the other Cardinals. When the Habemus Papam announcement was made most people in traditional circles, like everyone else (including the media), scrambled to find out what he was like as a Cardinal and Bishop. Was he a conservative? a liberal? worldly? holy? etc. I can tell you personally from my own conversations with Priests and laity that the reactions are mixed. One priest I spoke with was full of hope that Pope Francis would hear the voice of God like St Francis before him ; “Go and rebuild my Church” - and that his much talked about humility would bring a new energy and piety into the Church. Another priest gave quite a different impression and seemed to suggest that things will only get worse for tradition, although he did not say much, again taking the “wait and see” attitude.

Laity also have mixed views. One woman told me that she thinks that Pope Francis will be able to restore faith in the Church to a degree since he is not mixed up in the bureaucracy in the Vatican and that the Powers that be will be bypassed to some extent. I also had a chance to talk to another layman from the Popes home country - although he does not attend an SSPX Mass. He had very negative views of the Pope from when he was a bishop - but I took these with a pinch of salt as he seems to share the bitterness that some of the media in Argentina are putting out. Besides, his issues were not really related to the faith as such.

I myself did not know much about the Pope when he was elected. My initial thoughts - and these are mine personally - were that the faith in his home country tends more towards liberalism than conservatism - and that the Jesuits have become a more liberal order since the 60’s. These views came to my mind in a general way from what I have read about the country and the theology and books written by Jesuits in recent years - which I have collected a great deal of. This was a generalization and I had no idea how that related to the Pope if at all.

The media; mainstream, traditionalist, liberal etc all pumped out stories about the Pope’s theology. If taken at face value; some stories sound encouraging, some not so. For example, I was glad when I heard the media say that the Pope was conservative, humble and that he stood firm on Catholic doctrines being debated by society today - on the other hand I was weary of reports showing how humble the Pope was as a Cardinal - showing pictures of him kneeling for the blessing of a protestant minister. I think most people can appreciate that for a “radical traditionalist” like myself things like this are somewhat unsettling.

One thing did come to my mind when it was announced that Cardinal Bergoglio had been elected. It was something that I had read that was written by Fr Nicholas Gruner. Most people know of Fr Gruner and his interest in promoting Fatima. I guess Fr Gruner is like Marmite; some people love him – some hate him. One diocesan priest actually told me they “feel sorry for him”? Well the reason that people hear of him and hold a view of him is usually based on the letters he sends out. He sends out information promoting Fatima and the Rosary, consecration etc to priests, bishops and Cardinals as well as laity. To be most effective he makes sure he sends letters to the Cardinals and bishops around the world. He did mention in the article a lot of negative feedback, a lot of indifference or silence and a lot of positive feedback. Cardinal Bergoglio fell into the positive feedback category and wrote back to Fr Gruner with a cordial reply indicating that he did say the fifteen decade rosary daily. I will have to search out that article again, but his name did stick in my mind and I recalled his devotion to the Rosary as I listened to his first announcement when he blessed the crowd from the balcony.

At the end of the day any Pope will be judged by his actions. Our Lord said that we are to judge a tree by its fruits. Some Popes were holier than others – some were more effective than others. I think one thing is important: the Pope fulfills a role – a job – in the Church.

To be a good Pope is not necessarily to be a Saint, likewise to be holy is not the equivalent of being a good Pope. It would be like a bank manager. He could be the most decent person you have ever met. Kind and generous and full of virtue – but he may be ineffective and loss money, make bad decisions and end up bankrupt. Likewise there could be a bank manager who is immoral but runs the bank the way it should be run and makes it successful and grow. The analogy is imperfect owing to the fact that the Church is a divine institution – but you can see my point.

So when someone asks me personally; “what do you think of the new Pope” – I would say: Pope Francis as a person seems very humble and seems to have a strong faith as a Pope in general, I will have to wait and see. I think something that we can all agree on – traditionalist or not – is that the Pope needs our prayers and has some very difficult decisions to make. Lets pray that his pontificate is for the good of the Church and the Glory of God.

St Francis of Assisi, pray for Pope Francis. Pope St Pius X, pray for your successor.

 

[Moore11]

Happy Easter to everyone!

I have not been on this forum for a good while and just now I have been browsing the traditional section. I have been attending Mass at an SSPX Chapel for years now and I support the Society. I have been talking to many Priests and laity about the election of Pope Francis. …

Great Post!

I wonder if the relationship that then Cardinal Bergolio had with the SSPX in Argentina.

I know that there is an SSPX presence there. I also know that much has been made of the EF after the SP in that area or lack there of…
What if Francis had an “understanding” with the SSPX?
That would explain 2 things. It would explain the SSPX’s reserved and welcome quiet attitude right now. And it would explain why the EF was implemented clumsily. If there was an understanding between the two. That could be very good.
Do we have anyone who could comment on the SSPX and Pope Francis before he was Pope?

 

[JReducation]

Great Post!

I wonder if the relationship that then Cardinal Bergolio had with the SSPX in Argentina.

I know that there is an SSPX presence there. I also know that much has been made of the EF after the SP in that area or lack there of…
What if Francis had an “understanding” with the SSPX?
That would explain 2 things. It would explain the SSPX’s reserved and welcome quiet attitude right now. And it would explain why the EF was implemented clumsily. If there was an understanding between the two. That could be very good.
Do we have anyone who could comment on the SSPX and Pope Francis before he was Pope?

There was that one comment by the SSPX priest in Argentina. But that could also have been bad chemistry between two people.

 

[Iotaunum]

It is good to see that you are still contributing to the forum Brother. I hope you are feeling well and I continue to remember you in my prayers - God Bless.

 

[Iotaunum]

Great Post!

I wonder if the relationship that then Cardinal Bergolio had with the SSPX in Argentina.

I know that there is an SSPX presence there. I also know that much has been made of the EF after the SP in that area or lack there of…
What if Francis had an “understanding” with the SSPX?
That would explain 2 things. It would explain the SSPX’s reserved and welcome quiet attitude right now. And it would explain why the EF was implemented clumsily. If there was an understanding between the two. That could be very good.
Do we have anyone who could comment on the SSPX and Pope Francis before he was Pope?

I have heard that the Cardinal did not say a traditional Mass or implement the MP as well as others, but at the same time I have heard nothing to say that he was in any way hostile to the traditional rite or practices. I have heard negative feedback from traditional Catholics who were from his former diocese, but no specifics as to what the problems were. I will admit that I haven’t researched the current Pope as much as i have the previous ones. He does seem to have a strong devotion to the rosary which makes me more relaxed about the situation.

 

[JReducation]

Great Post!

I wonder if the relationship that then Cardinal Bergolio had with the SSPX in Argentina.

I know that there is an SSPX presence there. I also know that much has been made of the EF after the SP in that area or lack there of…
What if Francis had an “understanding” with the SSPX?
That would explain 2 things. It would explain the SSPX’s reserved and welcome quiet attitude right now. And it would explain why the EF was implemented clumsily. If there was an understanding between the two. That could be very good.
Do we have anyone who could comment on the SSPX and Pope Francis before he was Pope?

It is good to see that you are still contributing to the forum Brother. I hope you are feeling well and I continue to remember you in my prayers - God Bless.

No no no – you need to pray that God keep me in bed for a few more weeks. When I’m in bed is when I take care of my online ministry.

Thank you for your kind prayers. I truly do need them. Sometimes I get frustrated, because my apostolate outside has been reduced to a few hours a week, because I am wiped out after an hour or two. It’s the price of getting old, I guess. The machine doesn’t run as it once did. Even my memory goes once in a while.

Please pray that the Lord will give me patience with myself and patience with him. Also that others will be patient with me. I know that my health issues can be a burden for my brothers and family.

God bless you and your dear ones on this Solemnity of the Resurrection.

 

[Marie5890]

.

Please pray that the Lord will give me patience with myself and patience with him. Also that others will be patient with me. I know that my health issues can be a burden for my brothers and family.

God bless you and your dear ones on this Solemnity of the Resurrection.

Always, Bro., always.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Great Post!

I wonder if the relationship that then Cardinal Bergolio had with the SSPX in Argentina.

I know that there is an SSPX presence there. I also know that much has been made of the EF after the SP in that area or lack there of…
What if Francis had an “understanding” with the SSPX?
That would explain 2 things. It would explain the SSPX’s reserved and welcome quiet attitude right now. And it would explain why the EF was implemented clumsily. If there was an understanding between the two. That could be very good.
Do we have anyone who could comment on the SSPX and Pope Francis before he was Pope?

One of the SSPX bishops is also from Argentina. That is likely one reason why there may be many SSPX chapels there. I have no idea if the two men ever knew each other or met. The bishop is several years younger than Pope Francis.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

No no no – you need to pray that God keep me in bed for a few more weeks. When I’m in bed is when I take care of my online ministry.

Thank you for your kind prayers. I truly do need them. Sometimes I get frustrated, because my apostolate outside has been reduced to a few hours a week, because I am wiped out after an hour or two. It’s the price of getting old, I guess. The machine doesn’t run as it once did. Even my memory goes once in a while.

Please pray that the Lord will give me patience with myself and patience with him. Also that others will be patient with me. I know that my health issues can be a burden for my brothers and family.

God bless you and your dear ones on this Solemnity of the Resurrection.

Prayers for you as always. I am going tomorrow to get Easter water. I will say a special prayer for you then.

 

[Lormar]

No no no – you need to pray that God keep me in bed for a few more weeks. When I’m in bed is when I take care of my online ministry.

Thank you for your kind prayers. I truly do need them. Sometimes I get frustrated, because my apostolate outside has been reduced to a few hours a week, because I am wiped out after an hour or two. It’s the price of getting old, I guess. The machine doesn’t run as it once did. Even my memory goes once in a while.

Please pray that the Lord will give me patience with myself and patience with him. Also that others will be patient with me. I know that my health issues can be a burden for my brothers and family.

God bless you and your dear ones on this Solemnity of the Resurrection.

I never forget you, Brother, and you are always in my prayers.

God bless you during this Easter season and always!

 

[McCall1981]

This may have been discussed elsewhere, but when I’m being (possibly overly) optimistic, I think there could still be a chance because of the fact that Francis is not overly concerned with the liturgy. Whereas the negotiations with Benedict were very nuanced and detailed, Francis seems more like the type just say “You want the EF? Fine, you’re in, I’m busy dealing with other things”. On the backburner we must remember that the Pope can, at any moment simply say so and regularize them. This kind of act seems out of character for Benedict, but Francis seems much more spontaneous/impulsive. He is the type I could potentially see snapping his fingers and making it happen without needing all the details first.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

This may have been discussed elsewhere, but when I’m being (possibly overly) optimistic, I think there could still be a chance because of the fact that Francis is not overly concerned with the liturgy. Whereas the negotiations with Benedict were very nuanced and detailed, Francis seems more like the type just say “You want the EF? Fine, you’re in, I’m busy dealing with other things”. On the backburner we must remember that the Pope can, at any moment simply say so and regularize them. This kind of act seems out of character for Benedict, but Francis seems much more spontaneous/impulsive. He is the type I could potentially see snapping his fingers and making it happen without needing all the details first.

If the EF were all it was about, I would agree with you. But since the SSPX want other things, I don’t see Pope Francis agreeing without knowing those details. And then, some of those details go against what he has been explictly teaching (i.e., going out to the “outskirts”), I don’t see him agreeing.

Look at it this way: The SSPX want to circle the wagons and shoot any Indian on sight. The Holy Father is going out to smoke a peace pipe with them and is making converts along the way. (Very Ignatian of him! )