G 3-5 and G 3-22 : So satan was only telling the truth?

[Nita]

Accidentally submitted the above post, without realizing it, before sitting down to dinner.
Had a couple more comments to add.

“Good & evil” are words that apply to morality - to the moral law.

I’ll repeat a couple of Pope John Paul II’s exegesis from my earlier post; he says it so well.
With this imagery, Revelation teaches that the power to decide what is good and what is evil does not belong to man, but to God alone.
…
But **his freedom **is not unlimited: it must halt before the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", for it is called to accept the moral law given by God.

**The tree signifies the insurmountable limit for man **and for any creature however perfect

He (man) cannot himself pretend to establish the moral law, to decide himself what is good and what is bad independently of the Creator, even against the Creator. Neither man nor any other creature can set himself in the place of God, claiming for himself the mastery of the moral order…

Re underlined part in above sentence: This is exactly what Adam did when he chose to override God’s wisdom and decree on what was good for him. He chose to usurp God’s role as the ultimate authority on what is good and what is evil, thus acting as/becoming like God in his behavior. That is what God meant when He said, " “Behold, the man has become like one of us,knowing good and evil;”

 

[HelenRose]

*G 3-5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

G 3-22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest He put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
*
So Satan was not lying but only telling the truth ? Is there any convention that Satan will never tell the truth ?

The most effective lies ever made are the lies that have an element of truth in them.

Recipe goes like this:

1/4 cup of truth
4 cups of lies and innuendoes

Mix well - present with a pretty ribbon.

Satan twists the truth just enough to make it sound good.

 

[Nelka]

He was being pernicious.

 

[Vico]

*G 3-5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

G 3-22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest He put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
*
So Satan was not lying but only telling the truth ? Is there any convention that Satan will never tell the truth ?

Don’t forget the first part of the statement from Genesis 3:4 “You surely will not die!”

Yes, they did die.

 

[joseie]

Don’t forget the first part of the statement from Genesis 3:4 “You surely will not die!”

Yes, they did die.

On this pl.see my comment in post no.26 which is reproduced below:

" 2.Regarding death. God told them that if the fruit is eaten they will die.In the normal circumstances, let us say even today,if some body tells you so what is your understanding? A Physical death immediately or soon after eating the fruit.Satan knew that they were under that(wrong) belief.So his telling them that they will not die can’t be called a lie."

 

[Randy_Carson]

*G 3-5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

G 3-22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest He put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
*
So Satan was not lying but only telling the truth ? Is there any convention that Satan will never tell the truth ?

Genesis 2
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

Notice that the woman has added to the Word of God: “and you must not touch it.”

Genesis 3
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The serpent contradicts God (and the woman) by declaring that they would not die. This is not true; Adam and Eve suffered a spiritual death by disobeying God.

 

[joseie]

Genesis 2
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

Notice that the woman has added to the Word of God: “and you must not touch it.”

Genesis 3
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The serpent contradicts God (and the woman) by declaring that they would not die. This is not true; Adam and Eve suffered a spiritual death by disobeying God.

My lie or not question is only about what satan told about becoming like gods.Regarding death also a view can be taken that it was not a lie ,as explained in the just preceding post.(no.45)

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

A half a truth is much worse than a whole lie as the sparkle of truth adds just enough credibility to the lie to make it seem true and makes it hard to discern

In my experience, it creates a circular argument that cannot be escaped, which in my mind reminds me of a black hole. Every time in my life when I have encountered such an argument the results are always the same and I have learned to avoid it as much as possible. Just don’t let yourself get sucked in lol.

Joseie,

Half-truths are always “the truth”!

 

[joseie]

Joseie,

Half-truths are always “the truth”!

If it is admitted as half truth ,which part is the truth part according to you ?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man…you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3:4
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.

 

[Nita]

On this pl.see my comment in post no.26 which is reproduced below:

" 2.Regarding death. God told them that if the fruit is eaten they will die.In the normal circumstances, let us say even today,if some body tells you so what is your understanding? A Physical death immediately or soon after eating the fruit.Satan knew that they were under that(wrong) belief.So his telling them that they will not die can’t be called a lie."

It is a lie because Adam & Eve DID die. Satan did not say “you will not die immediately!” That would have been a truth, but that is not what he said.
The “when” of dying was not a part of either God’s declaration (“you will die”) or Satan’s deliberate lie (“you will not die”).

You are assuming Adam thought God meant he would die immediately. That is your assumption, but there is nothing in the text that indicates Adam thought such a thing.

 

[Nita]

Joseie,

Half-truths are always “the truth”!

Assume you’re referring to only the parts that are true!

But “half-truth” refers to the whole statement, and the whole statement would not be true. merriam-webster.com/dictionary/half%E2%80%93truth

 

[joseie]

It is a lie because Adam & Eve DID die. Satan did not say “you will not die immediately!” That would have been a truth, but that is not what he said.
The "when" of dying was not a part of either God’s declaration (“you will die”)** or Satan’s deliberate lie** (“you will not die”).

You are assuming Adam thought God meant he would die immediately. That is your assumption, but there is nothing in the text that indicates Adam thought such a thing.

I went by the plain and direct meaning which Adam also would have so grasped. See,on pointing out to a tree with eye-catching fruits you tell that don’t eat its fruit or you will die ,what should one understand ? The death will be after 100s of years later?

 

[Vico]

On this pl.see my comment in post no.26 which is reproduced below:

" 2.Regarding death. God told them that if the fruit is eaten they will die.In the normal circumstances, let us say even today,if some body tells you so what is your understanding? A Physical death immediately or soon after eating the fruit.Satan knew that they were under that(wrong) belief.So his telling them that they will not die can’t be called a lie."

It can be called a lie. Collins Dictionary:

lie, (noun)
something that is deliberately intended to deceive

And it was an offense:

Gen 3:14 “And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and the beasts of the earth …”

That day was the day she was condemned to death., phrased “die the death” (literally, “will die, die,”) the legal term for the death penalty, also written “shall be put to death” (see Exodus 21:15-17 and Leviticus 20:10-16).

• “But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.” (Gen. 2:17).
• “No, you shall not die the death.” (Gen. 3:4)

 

[Nita]

I went by the plain and direct meaning which Adam also would have so grasped. See,on pointing out to a tree with eye-catching fruits you tell that don’t eat its fruit or you will die ,what should one understand ? The death will be after 100s of years later?

Adam had never seen human death - perhaps not even animal death. How would he know how long it might take to die?

If I go do the doctor and he tells me I have an untreatable fatal disease and I will die, that doesn’t mean I will necessarily die right then, or even soon. I could live years.

 

[joseie]

Adam had never seen human death - perhaps not even animal death. How would he know how long it might take to die?

If I go do the doctor and he tells me I have an untreatable fatal disease and I will die, that doesn’t mean I will necessarily die right then, or even soon. I could live years.

See,Adam died after about 930 years of the incident. The death warned by God took place only after a delay of such a long long period .The no death assured by satan held good also for such a long long period.So to be fair let us take that both are true or atleast avoid saying that satan lied .

 

[Nita]

See,Adam died after about 930 years of the incident. The death warned by God took place only after a delay of such a long long period .The no death assured by satan held good also for such a long long period.So to be fair let us take that both are true or atleast avoid saying that satan lied .

Satan never said “no death for a long time”. Satan said “no death” - period. That was a lie and satan KNEW it was a lie because he KNEW God always told the truth.

 

[joseie]

It can be called a lie. Collins Dictionary:

lie, (noun)
something that is deliberately intended to deceive

And it was an offense:

Gen 3:14 “And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and the beasts of the earth …”

That day was the day she was condemned to death., phrased “die the death” (literally, “will die, die,”) the legal term for the death penalty, also written “shall be put to death” (see Exodus 21:15-17 and Leviticus 20:10-16).

• “But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.” (Gen. 2:17).
• “No, you shall not die the death.” (Gen. 3:4)

Agreed that to be a lie it should be some thing deliberately intended to ‘deceive’.But pl.note that a truth can never deceive anybody because by definition deceive means to mislead.Truth can lead but can’t mislead.
So your attempt to argue that even if it is true ,since it was for deceiving them ,it falls under lie etc .does not stand.As I already explained in this thread ,there is no lie here.

 

[Vico]

Agreed that to be a lie it should be some thing deliberately intended to ‘deceive’.But pl.note that a truth can never deceive anybody because by definition deceive means to mislead.Truth can lead but can’t mislead.
So your attempt to argue that even if it is true ,since it was for deceiving them ,it falls under lie etc .does not stand.As I already explained in this thread ,there is no lie here.

You mean the second part of the statement, beginning with “for”? There was a lie when the entire statement is used. A because of B thought construct forms a lie. Imagine saying that God only told you that you would die the death (be condemned) because he knew that you would know good and evil and did not want you to be like gods.

Genesis 3

A (4): And the serpent said to the woman: No, you shall not die the death.
B (5): For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

The comment in Post 26 is fallacious as explained that “die the death” means condemned that day, which was true.

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

*G 3-5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

G 3-22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest He put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
*
So Satan was not lying but only telling the truth ? Is there any convention that Satan will never tell the truth ?

Satan mixes the truth with lies. He said, that if you eat this tree then you will become like God, however, the tree is the taste of death. The tree of life is for the living.