Gallup Finds "Pro-Choice" Americans Back Most Abortion Limits

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Wow, I didn’t realize pro-choicers and pro-lifers had so much in common.
 
Wow. It’s actually really sad to see so many pro-lifers who think abortion should ever be legal, and that there are some who don’t think it should ever be illegal. Who the heck did they poll!? Those people aren’t pro-life!
 
I’ve seen similar polls in the past several years. When a pollster asks under which specific circumstances abortion should be allowed or proscribed, people generally want it to be quite limited, both in terms of reasons for abortion and in terms of gestational age.

The result is quite different than what Roe v Wade actually gave us, which was abortion throughout nine months of pregnancy.
 
The problem is that the issue is so completely politicized. There’s no middle ground, so being “pro-choice” effectively means supporting all abortion, because the only option offered in the political process is a complete ban on abortion, even in cases of rape, incest, and risk to the mother’s health. In reality, as this poll makes clear, most pro-choice proponents want limitations!

This is no surprise to me.
 
Jocko_VT said:
The problem is that the issue is so completely politicized. There’s no middle ground, so being “pro-choice” effectively means supporting all abortion, because the only option offered in the political process is a complete ban on abortion, even in cases of rape, incest, and risk to the mother’s health. In reality, as this poll makes clear, most pro-choice proponents want limitations!

This is no surprise to me.
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It shouldn’t surprise you. I don’t think anyone in their right mind thinks that abortion is a good thing. But in the case of rape, or when the woman’s life is in danger, most people (according to the poll and according to real life, as opposed to online forums) agree that it’s not moral to take that choice away from a woman. “Pro-lifers” label everyone the same if you don’t agree that abortion should be outlawed 100% of the time, even when a woman’s life is in danger.

There’s also the view among some pro-lifers that artificial birth control is the same as abortion. I would have liked to see ABCs as part of the poll, because no, not everyone views ABCs as the same as abortion.

I think that if “pro-lifers” were to not be so rigid in their definitions and demands, there would be less accessibility to abortion on demand. But once you start infringing on people’s rights (the right to access artificial birth control, the right to make medical decisions for your own body - especially when it’s in danger, the right to fight back when one has been raped, etc), they push back and would rather see abortion legal in more cirumcstances, than illegal in all circumstances.
 
Rence said:
It shouldn’t surprise you. I don’t think anyone in their right mind thinks that abortion is a good thing. But in the case of rape, or when the woman’s life is in danger, most people (according to the poll and according to real life, as opposed to online forums) agree that it’s not moral to take that choice away from a woman. “Pro-lifers” label everyone the same if you don’t agree that abortion should be outlawed 100% of the time, even when a woman’s life is in danger.

There’s also the view among some pro-lifers that artificial birth control is the same as abortion. I would have liked to see ABCs as part of the poll, because no, not everyone views ABCs as the same as abortion.

I think that if “pro-lifers” were to not be so rigid in their definitions and demands, there would be less accessibility to abortion on demand. But once you start infringing on people’s rights (the right to access artificial birth control, the right to make medical decisions for your own body - especially when it’s in danger, the right to fight back when one has been raped, etc), they push back and would rather see abortion legal in more cirumcstances, than illegal in all circumstances.
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I sense a lack of understanding here. Pro-lifers don’t seek rigidity for the sake of rigidity. They seek it to protect real rights. You apparently don’t understand what a right is. Liberals like to take any desire they have and label it as a right. Nowhere in the constitution or in our sacred scripture does it say anybody has a right to take birth control or make medical decisions. What you seek is entitlement.

The right in question here is the foremost right included in the Declaration of Independence, and that is the right to life. Even if you’ve been raped, it isn’t the child’s fault. Your rights end where another’s rights begin. You don’t have the right to kill a person if some other person raped you.
 
FaithBuild18 said:
I sense a lack of understanding here. Pro-lifers don’t seek rigidity for the sake of rigidity. They seek it to protect real rights. You apparently don’t understand what a right is. Liberals like to take any desire they have and label it as a right. Nowhere in the constitution or in our sacred scripture does it say anybody has a right to take birth control or make medical decisions. What you seek is entitlement.
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I’m sorry, I know this is going to sound rude and insulting and I swear that’s not how I mean it, so please don’t take it as disrespectful but… My body is my body and I have the right to make medical decisions concerning and about my body. I am the one with legal right to consent or refuse treatment, and I thank God that the government makes sure I have it. It’s not an entitlement. I own my body. It’s mine. No one should have more decision power about my body than ME. Whoever doesn’t like it can lump it, and should be thanking God they have this decision power over their own body rather than concerning themselves with not having enough decision making power over mine.
FaithBuild18 said:
The right in question here is the foremost right included in the Declaration of Independence, and that is the right to life. Even if you’ve been raped, it isn’t the child’s fault. Your rights end where another’s rights begin. You don’t have the right to kill a person if some other person raped you.
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You’re right. Your rights end where another’s rights begin and the right to consent or refuse treatment lies in favor with the woman, regardless of who likes it or not, or who doesn’t agree with it or not. Abortion is legal here, and yes, one’s rights end where another person’s rights begin. The rights of someone completely against abortion with no exceptions END where a woman’s rights begin. Do what you like with your body, but you have no right to tell another person what treatments they shall have or not have, on their own body. Sorry, don’t mean to be rude. Just saying it like it currently is.
 
Rence said:
I’m sorry, I know this is going to sound rude and insulting and I swear that’s not how I mean it, so please don’t take it as disrespectful but… My body is my body and I have the right to make medical decisions concerning and about my body. I am the one with legal right to consent or refuse treatment, and I thank God that the government makes sure I have it. It’s not an entitlement. I own my body. It’s mine. No one should have more decision power about my body than ME. Whoever doesn’t like it can lump it, and should be thanking God they have this decision power over their own body rather than concerning themselves with not having enough decision making power over mine.

You’re right. Your rights end where another’s rights begin and the right to consent or refuse treatment lies in favor with the woman, regardless of who likes it or not, or who doesn’t agree with it or not. Abortion is legal here, and yes, one’s rights end where another person’s rights begin. The rights of someone completely against abortion with no exceptions END where a woman’s rights begin. Do what you like with your body, but you have no right to tell another person what treatments they shall have or not have, on their own body. Sorry, don’t mean to be rude. Just saying it like it currently is.
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The woman’s rights to her own body end where the child’s right to life begins. Plus, we’re not even allowed to do whatever we want with our own body. We can’t use it to assault others, take illegal drugs, etc…
 
laircy said:
The woman’s rights to her own body end where the child’s right to life begins…
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Sorry…but that’s not true. Not in this country. In this country, the right to consent or refuse medical treatments and procedures lies with the woman. And in most countries, even those with laws against abortion, make exceptions for women who have been raped or whose lives are in danger.
 
Rence said:
Sorry…but that’s not true. Not in this country. In this country, the right to consent or refuse medical treatments and procedures lies with the woman. And in most countries, even those with laws against abortion, make exceptions for women who have been raped or whose lives are in danger.
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Laws don’t dictate what’s true. At one point in time, slavery was legal in this country, but that doesn’t mean that slavery morally permissible.
 
smichhertz said:
Laws don’t dictate what’s true. At one point in time, slavery was legal in this country, but that doesn’t mean that slavery morally permissible.
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You changed the goalposts there. People had the right to own slaves back then; they don’t now. Having the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily morally permissible – I have the right to spew obscenities from the street corner or organize KKK rallies.

So everything Rence said is true.
 
Filippo_Bruno said:
You changed the goalposts there. People had the right to own slaves back then; they don’t now. Having the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily morally permissible – I have the right to spew obscenities from the street corner or organize KKK rallies.

So everything Rence said is true.
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I’m not changing the goalposts. We’re obviously discussing this from a moral perspective.

The debate over abortion is not “is abortion legal?” it’s “SHOULD it be legal?”. Naturally, any discussion of rights refers to moral rights, and not the technical legality of rights.

If I say “every black man has the same rights as white men” and the laws do not currently reflect that, then it goes without saying I’m speaking about moral rights, and for someone to make the assumption that I’m referring to legal rights is kind of absurd.
 
“Your rights end where another’s rights begin. You don’t have the right to kill a person if some other person raped you.”

This is a great articulation of a pro-life Libertarian argument I often use 🙂

I don’t like how the debate on this subject is always termed in “women’s reproductive rights” or “it’s the woman’s body…”. What about the child’s rights? Many seem to forget about those.
 
smichhertz said:
The debate over abortion is not “is abortion legal?” it’s “SHOULD it be legal?”. Naturally, any discussion of rights refers to moral rights, and not the technical legality of rights.
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That may be. I took the topic of this thread, however, to be surprise over the fact that even pro-choice proponents are largely anti-abortion.

It makes sense to me that Catholics are pro-life, in every circumstance. But there’s a difference between, say, a 40-year-old devout married Catholic woman who has an unintended pregnancy and the 15 year-old un-churched girl who got pregnant when her dad raped her. To remove all options from the 15-year-old based on the religious belief of Catholics doesn’t go well with most people, even those who themselves would never opt for abortion.

The irony, and I think Rence is pointing this out, is that abortion is far more common now than it would be if the pro-lifers would just scale back a little and respect the fact that not everyone is a well supported devout catholic.

A further, and very painful irony that I’ll point out is that the people who want to outlaw abortion altogether are typically the same people who want to eliminate the tax-funded social safety nets that the above-mentioned 15-year-old and her child will desperately need to avoid a spiral into despair and destruction.
 
Jocko_VT said:
I took the topic of this thread, however, to be surprise over the fact that even pro-choice proponents are largely anti-abortion.
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I was just more responding to a comment, but yes, I would agree that’s the basic topic at hand.
Jocko_VT said:
The irony, and I think Rence is pointing this out, is that abortion is far more common now than it would be if the pro-lifers would just scale back a little and respect the fact that not everyone is a well supported devout catholic.
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I’m not so sure I agree with this. I certainly agree that some pro-lifers take it too far, but so do pro-choicers. There’s extremists in every political debate. Abortion is one of the more sharply divided issues, so I think you have more extremism on both ends, but there are still plenty of moderates on both sides of the debate.

And even if that were true, I don’t think more women are having abortions just to spite extremist pro-lifers.
Jocko_VT said:
A further, and very painful irony that I’ll point out is that the people who want to outlaw abortion altogether are typically the same people who want to eliminate the tax-funded social safety nets that the above-mentioned 15-year-old and her child will desperately need to avoid a spiral into despair and destruction.
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I don’t think that’s fair. The pro-life movement has been very active in providing aid to women with crisis pregnancies and providing them with alternatives to abortion. I think the more conservative minds just prefer keeping such efforts from being overly dependent on taxpayer dollars.

And I have yet to see any effective argument that clearly shows how more welfare = less abortions. Most of them attempt to create a false disjunction of “either abortion or raise the child” while ignoring the third option of adoption.
 
Jocko_VT said:
That may be. I took the topic of this thread, however, to be surprise over the fact that even pro-choice proponents are largely anti-abortion.

It makes sense to me that Catholics are pro-life, in every circumstance. But there’s a difference between, say, a 40-year-old devout married Catholic woman who has an unintended pregnancy and the 15 year-old un-churched girl who got pregnant when her dad raped her. To remove all options from the 15-year-old based on the religious belief of Catholics doesn’t go well with most people, even those who themselves would never opt for abortion.

The irony, and I think Rence is pointing this out, is that abortion is far more common now than it would be if the pro-lifers would just scale back a little and respect the fact that not everyone is a well supported devout catholic.

A further, and very painful irony that I’ll point out is that the people who want to outlaw abortion altogether are typically the same people who want to eliminate the tax-funded social safety nets that the above-mentioned 15-year-old and her child will desperately need to avoid a spiral into despair and destruction.
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Yes, there is a difference in how people are treated. The father who raped a 15 year old girl can be sent to prison. His child can be given the death penalty.
 
smichhertz said:
Laws don’t dictate what’s true. At one point in time, slavery was legal in this country, but that doesn’t mean that slavery morally permissible.
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The laws don’t dictate what is true to those who don’t agree with those laws.
 
Rence said:
The laws don’t dictate what is true to those who don’t agree with those laws.
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But do to those who do agree with them? So slavery was morally permissible to those who agreed with the laws legalizing it? And therefore legal authority itself is a source of truth?
 
smichhertz said:
But do to those who do agree with them? So slavery was morally permissible to those who agreed with the laws legalizing it? And therefore legal authority itself is a source of truth?
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The fact that insert some activity here is legal, makes it untrue to state that one doesn’t have a right to it. That’s what I’m trying to say. Legal authority allows those freedom, where others would take it away – especially when different cultures/religions/groups of people do not agree on what is a right and what is not. In essense, the legal authorities step in and establish laws that serve all of those people, not just one. Slavery is not something that compares to abortion, so I won’t discuss it here.
 
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