Game of Thrones....what do you all think?

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I personally dislike the television show for a variety of reasons, not of which are religious.
 
I stopped watching the show after the last season. I have not seen any of the current season, but do know through news articles that it’s pretty much the worst one ever for various reasons.

The show started out okay despite a bunch of strange simulated sex scenes, with an interesting plot and characters, great visuals, and a quasi-medieval fantasy setting. I have always liked that kind of “period” show, So at first I just endured the sex scenes, as much of the overall story wasn’t about sex. (This is also my opinion of the book series that it is based on. Of course it is much easier to skip sex scenes when reading a book.)

Unfortunately, as the seasons have progressed, IMHO the show has essentially come to rely way too much on both sexual porn and “torture porn”. As well as scenes that combine both! :eek: I especially found it disturbing that season 4 contained depictions of rape that were either much more graphic than in the original;(again, a brief mention of women being raped in a book, is much different than actually seeing the rapes simulated), and also some scenes of rape or almost-rape that weren’t even in the book.

Notably, while there were rape scenes starting from the first season, most did not show the actual rape, but mercifully found a way to cut away right before.

I also found out from news stories on the current season, that the show completely changed the plotline of a major female character, essentially so they could put her into the plotline of a minor character who is raped and tortured by a sadist. :eek: (The same character is still a virgin in the books.) Many fans were outraged by this turn of events, and I count myself fortunate that I didn’t have to see that.

Also per news coverage, the show aged up a character who is only 8 in the books to some nebulous age that made him old enough to consummate his marriage this season. BUT he otherwise still acts like an 8 year old, which is very disturbing. (As opposed to prior cases of aging characters up to be “old enough” for sex, they actually were aged up to ACT their ages as well, indeed Robb and Jon actually looked, and act, much older than even their supposed ages on the show. Same for Dany.)

I also did not like how the show has really simplified the characters and erased many of the moral gray areas that are in the books. They have turned Tyrion Lannister into a wisecracking, cynical, but ultimately standard hero. For example, Tyrion commits cold-blooded murder in “Storm of Swords”, but the show turned the act into legitimate self-defense. On the other hand, Jaime Lannister, who in the books seems to be on a path to redemption, is essentially a villain in the TV show. The show had him commit acts of rape and murder that his book counterpart does not.

Same for Stannis Baratheon, they show portrays him as a villain and has erased many of the nuances to his character. Now this is all based on the show up to Season 4, but from what I’ve read about Season 5 there haven’t been much improvement on this, and apparently the “Sand Snake” plotline is very poorly acted,

Essentially, thumbs down, unfortunately. Maybe I was just fooling myself all along about the artistic merits of this show, but it’s become obvious at this point that they are going for shock value and sexual titillation over everything else.
 
I like Game of Thrones. I think the storytelling and the completely fleshed out fantasy world is pretty amazing.

However, I think the TV show would be exponentially better if they toned down the violence a bit, and kept the actors clothes on.

I firmly believe that all storytelling, TV, books, etc cannot completely be sanitized of anything that might be above a PG rating. Some stories need to be able to explore harder topics, seriously you have to be willing to explore those topics to even tell history if you want to do it accurately.

That being said, you can imply people had sex, or are in a house of ill repute without having naked people everywhere. I actually find that aspect of the show to be distracting and annoying.

So yes, I like the show, but I would like it more without the gratuitous nudity and blood.
 
The show may have great costumes and sets but there’s no excuse for the nudity, simulated sex and other objectionable elements. I want none of the latter floating around in my head.

As a professional book editor, the company I work for keeps things at PG.

Ed
 
I don’t have HBO, so won’t see the current season for some time.

That said, I understand why they don’t want to keep it at PG level: They don’t want to potentially put off adult viewers.

If adults want “cleaner” content, they should demand it from the networks, IMNAAHO, else the choice will be made for them.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
I don’t have HBO, so won’t see the current season for some time.

That said, I understand why they don’t want to keep it at PG level: They don’t want to potentially put off adult viewers.

If adults want “cleaner” content, they should demand it from the networks, IMNAAHO, else the choice will be made for them.

ICXC NIKA
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There’s a BIG difference between “PG” and “NC-17”, though. (Well, technically GOT is “TV-MA”).

Also, I think it was certainly possible to deal with the darker issues such as rape without actually showing rape scenes in graphic detail. Interestingly, in Season 1 there is a scene (taken from the books) where a marauding Dothraki horde (think cross of Mongols, Huns, and some horse-riding Native American tribes) attacks a village, loots it, burns it, and carries off the women to be slaves.

It is pretty obvious that the raiders are about to rape some of the women, until Dany, who is married to their “Khal” (essentially a tribal chief) puts a stop to it. However, the show managed to depict this crucial scene without actually depicting the rapes.

But by S4, we were treated to a scene involving mutineers from the “Night’s Watch”, in which the leader is holding court while random women are being raped in the background. We don’t even see their faces, we don’t see how terrified they are. The whole scene was essentially shot from the POV of the rapists, objectifying the women. That scene was the start of my disillusionment.

Also, all the torture Theon undergoes that is shown in graphic detail in the show, is not shown in the books at all! Theon’s POV leaves the story altogether for a while, then he pops up again as the degraded “Reek”.

It is a false dilemma to state that all popular media must be either a family-friendly “PG” or be bordering on porn.
 
The dilemma is quite real. Anyone exposing themselves to certain words and images over a period of time either gets desensitized to them or starts to enjoy the ‘reality’ of them. For decades, both the porn industry, and TV programs and movies, have taken the same approach. Expose people to a little bad, then a little more, a little more and so on. That’s how it’s done. The evidence is there for anyone who wants to look back at TV from the 1950s and 1960s and movies from the late 1960s on. Or “art” magazines from the 1950s. It starts out with an artistic link which gradually disappears.

Graphic violence? “Soft” porn? The degradation of women? That is not entertainment. I remember seeing a magazine with a young, muscular man on the cover and the word rape was on his belt buckle, in a supermarket. Covers are very carefully planned to send a message.

Ed
 
At this point, I don’t think “artistic merit” can justify the excesses of Game of Thrones. But note that “The Passion of the Christ” film was certainly NOT PG, and I wouldn’t recommend little kids seeing it. It certainly featured graphic violence. However, that does not mean it is devoid of artistic merit, or that Christians shouldn’t watch it.
 
I like it.

I would argue that the scenes of sexual violence are inherent in the adaptation. This link provides a good rundown of the situation. It’s possible that they could have handled the issue of rape with more sensitivity and nuance, but this is a show where a pregnant woman was repeatedly stabbed in the gut. It’s a little late to suddenly say: “Hey! There’s a bridge we won’t cross!”

I’ll give it this: there’s nothing like it on television, save for Hannibal. You can watch it, and be confident that you’ll see something that has never been shown on television before. . Shows like CSI and NCIS are full of murder and violence, but enable the viewer to maintain a safe distance from the bloodshed and its consequences. GoT drags the viewers down into the violence, letting you hear a woman’s sobs and hear a girl’s screams. It’s honest, if nothing else.
 
edwest2 said:
The show may have great costumes and sets but there’s no excuse for the nudity, simulated sex and other objectionable elements. I want none of the latter floating around in my head.
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Amen.
 
Darryl_Revok said:
I like it.

I would argue that the scenes of sexual violence are inherent in the adaptation. This link provides a good rundown of the situation. It’s possible that they could have handled the issue of rape with more sensitivity and nuance, but this is a show where a pregnant woman was repeatedly stabbed in the gut. It’s a little late to suddenly say: “Hey! There’s a bridge we won’t cross!”
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One can address sexual violence WITHOUT using it for titillation. The show has gotten worse about this, S1 contained sexual violence but other than Dany and Drogo’s wedding night, it was straight from the books, and they managed to show “the Dothraki raping their captives” without actually showing the Dothraki raping their captives. But I guess you’d say it’s gotten better, more “honest”, by showing more and more rape, even more than was in the books. Oh, and the scene featuring a “pregnant woman stabbed in the gut” was also not in the books.
I’ll give it this: there’s nothing like it on television, save for Hannibal. You can watch it, and be confident that you’ll see something that has never been shown on television before. . Shows like CSI and NCIS are full of murder and violence, but enable the viewer to maintain a safe distance from the bloodshed and its consequences. GoT drags the viewers down into the violence, letting you hear a woman’s sobs and hear a girl’s screams. It’s honest, if nothing else.
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Nope, not honest when it depicts a multitude of happy whores, even the ones in Essos who are slaves and have no choice at all. The books do depict how degraded those “sex slaves” are, and BTW Tyrion essentially rapes one of them, TWICE, and this is completely erased from the show. So much for honesty. Not to mention all the sex scenes with naked women getting it on with fully clothed men, yeah that’s honest.

I guess if next season shows Arya being violently raped on-screen (at least her sister got a fade to black), even though this would also be a completely made-up scene not from the books, she does come close to it but actually defends herself from it, you’d state that is “inherent in the adaptation” and be happy that the show’s breaking new ground in showing something “never been shown on television before”.

Anyway, simply relying on having people tune in to see what new rape or torture scene they get to watch and be turned on by/ shocked by, is very far from any kind of artistic merit. I find it very disturbing that the show now essentially seems to be catering to the kind of watcher who is turned on by rape and torture. I’m certainly not into that.
 
Like I said in my post…

The world that George R Martin created is pretty amazing. The story is really good too.

I enjoy a lot of the TV series. The visuals, costumes etc are fantastic.

That being said the entire story could be told with a lot more subtlety and less naked people.

I don’t think they need to tone down the subject matter, as much as the manner in which they handle it.

Sadly the most striking and effective scenes they have show on the series have nothing to do with violence and nudity. The most amazing scenes are often those involving incredible acting. Exp. Tyrion’s facial expressions as Drogon arrives to rescue Dany and she flys off on his back are some of the most powerful moments of the series. No one was naked. I wish they would allow their actors to shine a bit more without resorting to gimmicks.

As to honest or accurate…it’s a fantasy world written by an author adapted by two producers…the whole thing is fantasy and non existent. It’s not real and therefore cannot be accurate to anything. It can evoke real emotion, it can parallel real situations from history etc…but it cannot in it’s essence be real…because it’s not.

I also do not tune in to see the next crazy thing they will do. I think the scenes that make people uncomfortable are designed to do so…they are supposed to make you think what is going on is wrong and bad, none of the scenes which have involved rape or torture have been shot or portrayed in a way that glorified it, they have been purposely shot to make it look and feel wrong and terrible.

I don’t have an issue so much with the hard topics they’ve tackled, so much as the pointless times they force having someone get naked into the plot for no reason.
 
edwest2 said:
The dilemma is quite real. Anyone exposing themselves to certain words and images over a period of time either gets desensitized to them or starts to enjoy the ‘reality’ of them. For decades, both the porn industry, and TV programs and movies, have taken the same approach. Expose people to a little bad, then a little more, a little more and so on. That’s how it’s done. The evidence is there for anyone who wants to look back at TV from the 1950s and 1960s and movies from the late 1960s on. Or “art” magazines from the 1950s. It starts out with an artistic link which gradually disappears.

Graphic violence? “Soft” porn? The degradation of women? That is not entertainment. I remember seeing a magazine with a young, muscular man on the cover and the word rape was on his belt buckle, in a supermarket. Covers are very carefully planned to send a message.

Ed
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I’m not sure “desensitization” is actually a thing. There are people who argue it, but I spent most of my adolescence and early adult life watching horror movies. I played violent video games just as long and read violent comics just as long.

Yet real life blood leaves me a little squeamish and real life violence sickens me. I know a lot of people like that, too. They can gleefully headshot someone in a video game, but most of them would ever touch a gun in real life.

While the degradation of women is certainly an issue, I’m a believer that art imitates life, rather than the other way around. Women are genuinely considered to be there for man’s sexual pleasure… And people thought this way even before the rise of TV. It was almost always the woman who was demonized for sexual activity outside of marriage - and almost never the man.
 
xNoOnex said:
I’m not sure “desensitization” is actually a thing. There are people who argue it, but I spent most of my adolescence and early adult life watching horror movies. I played violent video games just as long and read violent comics just as long.

Yet real life blood leaves me a little squeamish and real life violence sickens me. I know a lot of people like that, too. They can gleefully headshot someone in a video game, but most of them would ever touch a gun in real life.

While the degradation of women is certainly an issue, I’m a believer that art imitates life, rather than the other way around. Women are genuinely considered to be there for man’s sexual pleasure… And people thought this way even before the rise of TV. It was almost always the woman who was demonized for sexual activity outside of marriage - and almost never the man.
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It’s definitely the other way around and art does not matter. Any “art” involved are just trappings, like Playboy magazine for that urbane, sophisticated man that loved the finer things: certain cars, clothing, alcohol and of course, partial and totally nude women. Throw in an interview with Fidel Castro and the Playboy Philosophy that sex for pleasure is all that really matters regarding sex.

Today, women are exploited far more than they’ve ever been in history. It’s not just strip clubs, topless bars and soft porn, but on something called the internet.

I’m talking about a vile TV show that’s on right now and getting more vile as it degrades and degrades.

Ed
 
I like how the Game of Thrones is the most violent show on television, averaging one explicit beheading a season and dozens of gory deaths–yet most people are more uncomfortable by the nudity and sex than anything else.

It’s a very American attitude.
 
Alix1912 said:
I also do not tune in to see the next crazy thing they will do. I think the scenes that make people uncomfortable are designed to do so…they are supposed to make you think what is going on is wrong and bad, none of the scenes which have involved rape or torture have been shot or portrayed in a way that glorified it, they have been purposely shot to make it look and feel wrong and terrible.
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This was the excuse the writer of the mutineer scene used, stating we have to see how bad the mutineers are so we can cheer for Jon and his men when they come to kill them. But I did NOT think the scene focusing on the ringleader, Karl Tanner, while random women raped in the background was shot to make it feel “wrong and terrible”. Indeed, if you didn’t know the context, and didn’t hear Karl order his men “rape 'em till they’re dead”, it was essentially impossible to tell the women were actually being raped. One woman was shown completely naked with breasts bouncing, and I do think (though I can’t say 100% as I am not male) this scene was meant to be sexy. Rape being portrayed as sexy is very disturbing.

Also, I found it disturbing that the only woman victim to take revenge on Karl, is the one who is NOT shown being raped, only “slapped around” a bit, but merely implied to have been raped by Karl in the past. But this is also par for the course for this show; women can be shown either as passive victims, or quasi-men who disdain women and join the boys’ club, but not both. Note that the “tomboys”, Brienne, Asha, and Arya ALL are given such lines in the show, that portray them as looking down on women who don’t act the way they do.
Darryl_Revok said:
I like how the Game of Thrones is the most violent show on television, averaging one explicit beheading a season and dozens of gory deaths–yet most people are more uncomfortable by the nudity and sex than anything else.
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That may apply to others but in my case, it is the show’s reliance on showing not sex, but rape and torture to lure viewers in. I hope you’d agree that rape is NOT about sex, and as I recall the Jaime-Cersei sept scene did not involve any nudity at all. Indeed, there have been fewer actual consensual sex scenes than there were earlier in the show (at least, S4 compared to S1). Unfortunately, the guy who produced that scene apparently had no idea that many viewers would see it as a rape.

I don’t know if you identify as “feminist” but many who do, and have no problem with showing nudity and sex, have condemned the show for its reliance on sexualized violence used for titillation. Can you agree there is a difference between consensual sex and sexualized violence? “Oooh people who don’t like GOT are hypocritical prudes” is a strawman.

And as I recall, even many show fans who had no particular problem with sex and violence thought many of the Theon torture scenes were gratuitous, and would rather have had the show cut some of these and use the time for something more interesting.

ETA: Also note that the show actually DE-sexualized Cersei and completely cut out Arianne, who DOES use her sexuality to help advance her goals. The show even cut out a completely canonical sex scene between Dany and Daario in S4. With the exception of Ellaria, and the whores (who are obviously playing a part), women have been consistently shown as sexually passive in the show, very different than the book series.

So personally, my issues with the show go way beyond an aversion to sex and nudity, and I am far from alone in this.
 
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