Gaming the Sacramental System

[Truthstalker]

Let us say I have a friend who maintains any system can be “gamed” - that is, turned to the personal advantage of a participant as opposed to the interests of anyone else or to the intent of those who set up the system. The more complicated the system, the better in terms of gaming it. This friend cites the Catholic sacramental system as a prime example of a system in which one can find so many loopholes that one can essentially sin without consequence and do whatever you want - all you have to do is know how to work the system. Certain priests, for example, will absolve anything and so you say three Hail Mary’s and you literally get away with murder or anything else you want to do, without even having to worry about conscience.

My response to this is that to do this is to have a seared conscience. The response would be that it is perfectly Catholic and perfectly correct. God desires all men to be saved and so however we can work out our salvation is fine with Him. So we should all game the system because the outcome is justified.

Responses?

 

[rr1213]

Being Protestant, I am no expert on Catholic Confession by a long shot. Still, isn’t it necessary in any confession, under the Catholic viewpoint or otherwise, that the person confessing his sins be truly repentent? If you are “gaming the system” it is highly unlikely that you have recognized the sin to which you are confessing and have committed to turn from that sin, i.e., to repent of the sin. And, if you are not truly repentent, how can you be absolved of your sins?

 

[mommyof4]

Ok, I’m no theologian (not by a long shot), but I don’t think that we can “play” God. In order for the confession to be valid, the penitent would have to be sorry for the sin(s), and have the intention of not doing that sin any more. I also think it is a sin to presume upon the sacrament of confession. For instance, it is a sin for me to say “I can steal this money, and then go to confession” afterwards. The presumption of the sacrament would be a sin in itself. In the end, God knows what is in the heart of the person. If God knew that this person was just “playing the game,” so to speak, I don’t think God would be pleased with that.

 

[Victorious]

Let us say I have a friend who maintains any system can be “gamed” - that is, turned to the personal advantage of a participant as opposed to the interests of anyone else or to the intent of those who set up the system. The more complicated the system, the better in terms of gaming it. This friend cites the Catholic sacramental system as a prime example of a system in which one can find so many loopholes that one can essentially sin without consequence and do whatever you want - all you have to do is know how to work the system. Certain priests, for example, will absolve anything and so you say three Hail Mary’s and you literally get away with murder or anything else you want to do, without even having to worry about conscience.

The thing that makes your friend’s idea dumb (besides the idea that sacraments are a “system”) is that God is nobody’s fool.

If anybody’s trying to “game the system,” it’s the once saved, always saved crowd. If once saved always saved is true, then what you do after being saved doesn’t matter. The logical end of this line of thinking (discussed in another thread) is the idea that real Christians are incapable of sinning.

 

[DesertBrother]

Let us say I have a friend who maintains any system can be “gamed” - that is, turned to the personal advantage of a participant as opposed to the interests of anyone else or to the intent of those who set up the system. The more complicated the system, the better in terms of gaming it. This friend cites the Catholic sacramental system as a prime example of a system in which one can find so many loopholes that one can essentially sin without consequence and do whatever you want - all you have to do is know how to work the system. Certain priests, for example, will absolve anything and so you say three Hail Mary’s and you literally get away with murder or anything else you want to do, without even having to worry about conscience.

My response to this is that to do this is to have a seared conscience. The response would be that it is perfectly Catholic and perfectly correct. God desires all men to be saved and so however we can work out our salvation is fine with Him. So we should all game the system because the outcome is justified.

Responses?

The sacraments are not some kind of robotic, unfeeling “system” for acheiving salvation. Those looking in from the outside think they see something cold and calculated. They don’t understand that these are gifts from God that give physical, intellectual, and spiritual expression to mysteries that are otherwise unspeakable and beyond comprehension. God wants us to worship him with our entire being. After all we are both physical and spiritual beings. He gave us five senses, and in the sacraments He lets us use our senses to make more real our communion with the Trinity. This was His gift to us, to make Himself a more concrete reality on every level our being.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The sacraments are not some kind of robotic, unfeeling “system” for acheiving salvation. Those looking in from the outside think they see something cold and calculated. They don’t understand that these are gifts from God that give physical, intellectual, and spiritual expression to mysteries that are otherwise unspeakable and beyond comprehension. God wants us to worship him with our entire being. After all we are both physical and spiritual beings. He gave us five senses, and in the sacraments He lets us use our senses to make more real our communion with the Trinity. This was His gift to us, to make Himself a more concrete reality on every level our being.

Hi,
Would you also say that the Bible was His gift to us as well?

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The thing that makes your friend’s idea dumb (besides the idea that sacraments are a “system”) is that God is nobody’s fool.

If anybody’s trying to “game the system,” it’s the once saved, always saved crowd. If once saved always saved is true, then what you do after being saved doesn’t matter. The logical end of this line of thinking (discussed in another thread) is the idea that real Christians are incapable of sinning.

Hi,
If you get to know a **true believer **who believes in OSAS long enough I guarentee you they will sin and repent and ask forgiveness. I believe in OSAS I completely disagree with your statement that we think we dont sin anymore or that we cant. I sin daily and I admit it Any OSAS believers who think they can do what they want are fooling themselves. I dont doubt there are some out there. Im not one of them:thumbsup:

 

[Reepicheep]

God is not mocked.

 

[mommyof4]

Hi,
Would you also say that the Bible was His gift to us as well?

Yes, I for one certainly would.

 

[DesertBrother]

Hi,
Would you also say that the Bible was His gift to us as well?

Of course! The Scriptures are the Word of God. Is private interpretation of its many layers of meaning acceptable by anyone who feels like starting up his own church and being the preacher? No. Protestant ministers presume that they are inspired by God to preach the Word, yet their interpretations conflict with one another constantly. It takes more than being outgoing and charismatic to properly teach others the Word of God.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Of course! The Scriptures are the Word of God. Is private interpretation of its many layers of meaning acceptable by anyone who feels like starting up his own church and being the preacher? No. Protestant ministers presume that they are inspired by God to preach the Word, yet their interpretations conflict with one another constantly. It takes more than being outgoing and charismatic to properly teach others the Word of God.

Hi,
Im not sure I agree that a minister would think they are inspired by God to preach the word of God. I could be wrong here, but Im going to go out on a limb and say they are simply being obedient to God’s will for them and that the Holy Spirit lead them into the ministry. IMHO anyway. I would even go as far to say as they were given the gift of preaching/teaching.

 

[DesertBrother]

Hi,
Im not sure I agree that a minister would think they are inspired by God to preach the word of God. I could be wrong here, but Im going to go out on a limb and say they are simply being obedient to God’s will for them and that the Holy Spirit lead them into the ministry. IMHO anyway. I would even go as far to say as they were given the gift of preaching/teaching.

I’m not in any way doubting their good intentions or love for Jesus Christ… or their genuine Holy Spirit inspired love for the Scriptures. They’re probably extremely holy people in many cases. But without the guidance of ancient Apostolic tradition, they’re bound to fall into error when trying to interpret and teach the faithful all by themselves.

 

[StCsDavid]

Let us say I have a friend who maintains any system can be “gamed” - that is, turned to the personal advantage of a participant as opposed to the interests of anyone else or to the intent of those who set up the system. The more complicated the system, the better in terms of gaming it. This friend cites the Catholic sacramental system as a prime example of a system in which one can find so many loopholes that one can essentially sin without consequence and do whatever you want - all you have to do is know how to work the system. Certain priests, for example, will absolve anything and so you say three Hail Mary’s and you literally get away with murder or anything else you want to do, without even having to worry about conscience.

My response to this is that to do this is to have a seared conscience. The response would be that it is perfectly Catholic and perfectly correct. God desires all men to be saved and so however we can work out our salvation is fine with Him. So we should all game the system because the outcome is justified.

Responses?

Under this premise, salvation is something that can be plumbed. That’s not the Catholic belief. The sacraments provide the means for salvation, but ultimately it is God’s decision. At the same time, it’s also our choice. If we were, as you say, to game the system, don’t you believe that God would be wise to that? I would hate to have to 'splain that on judgement day.

Also it’s not the three Hail Mary’s that absolve one of sin. The penance is an act of self-abasement, mortification, or devotion performed to show sorrow or repentance for sin…it’s not the absolution of the sin.

 

[scylla]

Hi,
If you get to know a **true believer **who believes in OSAS long enough I guarentee you they will sin and repent and ask forgiveness. I believe in OSAS I completely disagree with your statement that we think we dont sin anymore or that we cant. I sin daily and I admit it Any OSAS believers who think they can do what they want are fooling themselves. I dont doubt there are some out there. Im not one of them:thumbsup:

I know a lot of OSAS believers and I agree with you that most will repent after they sin. This doesn’t prove OSAS at all though, it just proves that these are loyal Christians who indeed want to do the will of God. Taken to it’s logical conclusion OSAS makes no sense unless free will is taken out of the picture and we are controlled by God, or sin doesn’t matter and God doesn’t have the ability to notice it. The first makes us robots and life pointless, the other insults God.
Either doesn’t logically work itself out, this doesn’t make the OSAS believer bad, they just are in a system that insults them or God.

In the OSAS system is repentance necessary? This is a key question to ask. If not then sin doesn’t matter, if yes then are you really saved if you don’t repent.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I know a lot of OSAS believers and I agree with you that most will repent after they sin. This doesn’t prove OSAS at all though, it just proves that these are loyal Christians who indeed want to do the will of God. Taken to it’s logical conclusion OSAS makes no sense unless free will is taken out of the picture and we are controlled by God, or sin doesn’t matter and God doesn’t have the ability to notice it. The first makes us robots and life pointless, the other insults God.
Either doesn’t logically work itself out, this doesn’t make the OSAS believer bad, they just are in a system that insults them or God.

In the OSAS system is repentance necessary? This is a key question to ask. If not then sin doesn’t matter, if yes then are you really saved if you don’t repent.

In Christ
Scylla

Hi, Look at it this way. God knows every sin we are ever going to commit–right. So when we repent he already knows what we did and that we are going to repent. So when you repent what you are actually doing is agreeing with God that what you did was wrong. The thing is after we are saved we still have to repent because God knows all but we dont. So what God wants is us to humble ourselves and submit to His authority by agreeing with Him that we sinned and ask for forgiveness. Repentnace is all about submitting to His authority.

 

[DesertBrother]

Hi, Look at it this way. God knows every sin we are ever going to commit–right. So when we repent he already knows what we did and that we are going to repent. So when you repent what you are actually doing is agreeing with God that what you did was wrong. The thing is after we are saved we still have to repent because God knows all but we dont. So what God wants is us to humble ourselves and submit to His authority by agreeing with Him that we sinned and ask for forgiveness. Repentnace is all about submitting to His authority.

This is not the way I’ve understood this doctrine. OSAS says that nothing can undo your salvation once you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior. You’re written in the book of Life, and all you need to do is wait around until death or the second coming. Someone correct me if this is not the case.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is not the way I’ve understood this doctrine. OSAS says that nothing can undo your salvation once you’ve accepted Jesus as your personal Savior. You’re written in the book of Life, and all you need to do is wait around until death or the second coming. Someone correct me if this is not the case.

Hi,
Well, that is probably because OSAS has been taught wrong to you. The first part of your statement is correct but we do not just sit around and wait. We are commanded by God to live a fruitful life worthy of God. I forget where in Scripture but it says that you will know who believes in me by their fruit(paraphrasing)Jesus is speaking of the fruit of the spirit in Galations 5 :21 or 22. God wants all christians to stand out to be different so the non-believer can see Christ in us and believe also. Im paraphrasing here as well. Its late and I dont feel like looking up Scripture

 

[tdgesq]

Hi,
Well, that is probably because OSAS has been taught wrong to you. The first part of your statement is correct but we do not just sit around and wait. We are commanded by God to live a fruitful life worthy of God. I forget where in Scripture but it says that you will know who believes in me by their fruit(paraphrasing)Jesus is speaking of the fruit of the spirit in Galations 5 :21 or 22. God wants all christians to stand out to be different so the non-believer can see Christ in us and believe also. Im paraphrasing here as well. Its late and I dont feel like looking up Scripture

I’m curious, what are the consequences of sin for the person who has been saved. Thanks.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I’m curious, what are the consequences of sin for the person who has been saved. Thanks.

Hi,
I believe it talks about that in Hebrews 12.

 

[Truthstalker]

I’m curious, what are the consequences of sin for the person who has been saved. Thanks.

What I’ve been taught:

First, there are still consequences to sin. You commit adultery, so your wife doesn’t trust you, or you spend money on cocaine, so your children starve. Your interest in the things of God declines; your spiritual sight decreases and you become spiritually blind.

Secondly, there is God’s discipline, which is something Not To Be Taken Lightly. If you are saved, then God sees to it that you will persevere and will drag you through whatever He has to in order to make sure you make it. Hebrews 12 comes into play. God treats you like sons, meaning He expects a holy life, and you can expect the rod of correction to come upon you in ways that will be extremely painful, but it is meant for your good.

Thirdly, you question whether you were saved. Is God actually at work in your life? Do you take Him seriously? Maybe it’s time to thoroughly and conscientiously examine yourself, because something is there that is not pleasing God, and it is time to make some changes and adjustments so that the sin does not happen again.

Fourth, you realize you’ve wounded Jesus, the one you love more than life. You’ve insulted your savior, held Him up to public ridicule because you haven’t witnessed for Him with your life but rather have become lukewarm, worthless salt, an unfruitful tree.

Fifth, there may be consequences in terms of your ability to minister in the church. If you have certain problems, it may not be best for you to be in a position of trust, such as teaching Sunday School or singing a solo or collecting the offering.

Sixth, your friends, when they find out about it, may decide to help deliver you and play Holy Spirit. You may have conversations in which items 1-4 figure prominently as people decide to restore in love a lost brother.

This all depends on the severity of the sin, of course. But some regard all sin as equally bad, in line with James’ ‘if you break one part of the law, you’ve broken all of it.’