Garden of Eden - Death - Supernatural state worked w/Natural physical laws?

[GodHeals]

Hi,

How are we as Catholics suppose to understand that there was no death in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve didn’t die or get injured and also had supernatural abilities and or praternatural gifts to which I don’t understand.

How did their being perfect and without sin in some sort of supernatural state work with the natural physical laws, scientific laws, that God created?

I come from a young earth creation point of view (6000 or so years), but am willing to take into consideration anyone’s non-heretical Catholic understanding of the creation account.

Thank you and God Bless You!

 

[Lasting_faith]

First of all, let us lose the word “supernatural” from the question.

It is, to be as short as possible, a story from The Bible about how the sin came in to our world. There is as far as I remember no mention about the death of Adam and Eve, we know they had (at least) two sons. But they came from paradise, where only one thing was forbidden, eating from The Tree of Wisdom. But the serpent did lure Eve to take a bite of what she was not to even touch. Well, she did, and that was that. With sin came all we today call “evil” or wrong, not to mention death. I am sure here is someone else who can explain this better to you, but it is a story written down to be a ever lasting reminder of what to not do. Later on, in The NT, Christ tells about sin in another way, one who sin is bad, but the one who did made someone sin, is much worse.

I have been reading that same thing over and over, and my conclusion is that it is meant to be a warning to us. (I hope I am not that wrong as I right now feel I might be.) In a sense, it is the define of the mortal sin. In paradise there was no death, but with that “first” sin, also death was among us, and still are. I don’t know what The RCC teach about Genesis, but to me it is a constant reminder of why we should not sin.

 

[grannymh]

Hi,

How are we as Catholics suppose to understand that there was no death in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve didn’t die or get injured and also had supernatural abilities and or praternatural gifts to which I don’t understand.

How did their being perfect and without sin in some sort of supernatural state work with the natural physical laws, scientific laws, that God created?

I come from a young earth creation point of view (6000 or so years), but am willing to take into consideration anyone’s non-heretical Catholic understanding of the creation account.

Thank you and God Bless You!

May I offer some beginning basics?

God is the only being Who is in a supernatural state.
Adam and Eve were created in the same natural state as ourselves with one important difference.

Both Adam’s nature and our nature is based on Genesis 1: 26-17. God created Adam, Eve, you, me, in His own image. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 355) At creation, Adam, like ourselves, is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. (CCC 356) Both Adam and ourselves have a unique nature which, in itself, unites both the spiritual world *and *material world. (CCC 355, 364-365)

The important difference between Adam and us is that Adam was given his natural life before he decided to scorn his Creator.

Adam’s natural life included the material aspects such as eating. As long as Adam remained in the divine intimacy of God, there was no need for his material blood and guts anatomy to go the way of all creatures, i.e., dying. (Genesis 2: 15-17)

The fruit of the forbidden Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is significant because it presented Adam with the temptation to go beyond the limits of his creaturely status. (CCC 396) In the Original Sin, Adam preferred himself to God and therefore he disobeyed God’s commandment.
(Genesis 3: 6-10; Romans 3: 23; CCC 397-400)

Before getting into Adam’s special gifts, are there questions about the above beginning?

Please note that for additional information, check out the footnotes to the above cited CCC paragraphs. In addition, read CCC 20-21 for an explanation of the “smaller print” which appears in some of the paragraphs.

 

[poustiniak]

Why is it that the garden of Eden isn’t mentioned in the Gospels?

 

[grannymh]

Why is it that the garden of Eden isn’t mentioned in the Gospels?

I have no idea–but here is a guess.

The Gospels are directed to the divinity of Jesus Christ and His salvific mission of restoring humanity’s relationship with God. (John 3:16) This original relationship between humanity and divinity was shattered when Adam freely committed the serious, devastating Original Sin. In my humble opinion, the place, garden, paled in significance compared to Romans 5: 12-21---- which is not a Gospel, but is a teaching of the Gospel’s Christ Crucified.

 

[edwest2]

Hi,

How are we as Catholics suppose to understand that there was no death in the Garden of Eden? Adam and Eve didn’t die or get injured and also had supernatural abilities and or praternatural gifts to which I don’t understand.

How did their being perfect and without sin in some sort of supernatural state work with the natural physical laws, scientific laws, that God created?

I come from a young earth creation point of view (6000 or so years), but am willing to take into consideration anyone’s non-heretical Catholic understanding of the creation account.

Thank you and God Bless You!

The circumstances you describe were provided by God who, as God, can do things only God can do. Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to blind, cleansed/healed the lepers without the use of any science. Again, Jesus is God.

Peace,
Ed

 

[kkollwitz]

“How did their being perfect and without sin in some sort of supernatural state work with the natural physical laws, scientific laws, that God created?”

The sinless world of Eden was normal. The sinful world we live in is not normal; it’s just all we know, a world of sin. Sin messed up not just Adam and Eve, but Creation itself, including natural physical laws.

 

[poustiniak]

Why is it that the garden of Eden isn’t mentioned in the Gospels?

I hope you don’t think it conceited, but I’ll answer my own question:
Eden is never specifically mentioned in the New testament, but Jesus uses a vineyard in lots of his parables. Also if you look through the Old testament you will find that a vineyard is treated as if it were ones very own little garden of Eden.

1. We start from Genesis 2:8
   And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2. As early on as in Genesis 9:20 there is a already a direct parallel:
   And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
3. Then in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy there are several very peculiar laws concerning the ownership of vineyards. From these its clear that owning a vineyard wasn’t just a sign of your wealth but also of your righteousness.
4. Now in Psalm 80:14 we have an explicit example that shows that the vine has become the symbolic representation for Israel, and the vineyard that of the New Jerusalem.
   *Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine; And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself. *
   5)Also in Song of Solomon 1:6 it becomes transparently obvious that the metaphorical meaning of a vineyard refers to ones standing before God
   Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother’s children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
   Conclusion: In short this means that to a Jew, 2000 years ago, when Jesus spoke about a vineyard they would have known that he wasn’t talking about those in Burgundy or Bordeaux with all the prestige and pomposity that is still nowadays associated with owning a vineyard, but that he was taking about the fall of the garden of Eden.

So in answer to your question, “How are we as Catholics suppose to understand that there was no death in the Garden of Eden?” all that you have to do is to read the Gospels and where you see the word “vineyard” simple replace it with a words that you yourself know to mean “That place from which I fell from grace”

 

[Michael_Allen]

Why is it that the garden of Eden isn’t mentioned in the Gospels?

That’s an interesting question.

I have read from N.T.Wright and Brian Mclaren that they consider that the Jews saw the Exodus and the exile the defining narratives in Jewish history. So the Gospels very much relate to Jesus in the context of the one who brings people out of slavery and out of exile into a new promised land. It’s a hypothesis, but it seems quite a sensible one to me.

As for the original question on death in the Garden of Eden, I read that in an allegorical way - life is being in the presence of God and death is the separation from God. Jesus, by giving “life” restores our connection with God - now and not just sometime in the future.

God bless +

Michael

 

[GodHeals]

May I offer some beginning basics?

God is the only being Who is in a supernatural state.
Adam and Eve were created in the same natural state as ourselves with one important difference.

Both Adam’s nature and our nature is based on Genesis 1: 26-17. God created Adam, Eve, you, me, in His own image. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 355) At creation, Adam, like ourselves, is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. (CCC 356) Both Adam and ourselves have a unique nature which, in itself, unites both the spiritual world and material world. (CCC 355, 364-365)

The important difference between Adam and us is that Adam was given his natural life before he decided to scorn his Creator.

Adam’s natural life included the material aspects such as eating. As long as Adam remained in the divine intimacy of God, there was no need for his material blood and guts anatomy to go the way of all creatures, i.e., dying. (Genesis 2: 15-17)

The fruit of the forbidden Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is significant because it presented Adam with the temptation to go beyond the limits of his creaturely status. (CCC 396) In the Original Sin, Adam preferred himself to God and therefore he disobeyed God’s commandment.
(Genesis 3: 6-10; Romans 3: 23; CCC 397-400)

Before getting into Adam’s special gifts, are there questions about the above beginning?

Please note that for additional information, check out the footnotes to the above cited CCC paragraphs. In addition, read CCC 20-21 for an explanation of the “smaller print” which appears in some of the paragraphs.

Thank you! I seem to follow so far.

 

[GodHeals]

The circumstances you describe were provided by God who, as God, can do things only God can do. Jesus raised the dead, gave sight to blind, cleansed/healed the lepers without the use of any science. Again, Jesus is God.
Peace,
Ed

That is true, I think St. Thomas Aquinas mentioned how the natural works with the supernatural, but I forget where… need to look that up again.

 

[grannymh]

Thank you! I seem to follow so far.

My apology for taking so long to get back to you.

Back in post 3 where I started the basics regarding Adam and Eve, there is this sentence. “The important difference between Adam and us is that Adam was given his natural life before he decided to scorn his Creator.”

Being the curious creatures that we are, we want to know what life was like for Adam and Eve before Adam threw that life away. As young students, we learned about the preternatural gifts. Me, all I remember is the unique name and nothing else.

Since I landed on CAF, I have seen various lists of these gifts, but I prefer to do my own research using the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-421.

Adam’s basic nature is the same unification of the material and spiritual as our nature which means that Adam’s material body would die just like the rest of creatures. Here is the key. Adam started his life in the divine intimacy of his Creator. We often talk about Adam being in friendship with God. Catholicism teaches that Adam and Eve were constituted in an original state of holiness and justice. In other words, Adam’s nature was in a state of harmony. In the beginning, Adam was sinless. Because of all this, Adam and Eve did not have to suffer or die. (CCC 374-379)

Death of our material anatomy is just one of the results when Adam decided to leave his Creator’s divine intimacy and be his own god.

Post 1 asks the question “How are we as Catholics suppose to understand that there was no death in the Garden?”

First, the natural physical laws would be part of the Garden of Eden even though we are not sure where on earth it was. The natural physical laws govern the material/physical universe and its inhabitants. It is reasonable that animals and plants in the garden would die in the same manner that animals and plants would die outside the garden. What death of animals and plants was like before Adam sinned is an unanswered question. We know, from digging up fossils, that death did exist in the material environment. In my humble opinion, birth and death were part of the original peaceful harmony of creation. When Adam, the pinnacle of creation, shattered his relationship with the world’s Creator, all of creation changed. CCC 400 says: “Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.”

And I would respectfully add that often the world is hostile to animals. Before Original Sin, God had blessed Adam and Eve saying: “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on earth.” This responsibility for the living things on earth continues past Adam’s sin.

I know that the idea of death for innocent animals is difficult. It can be hard to grasp that natural physical laws contain death. So I will pause here before I continue with the next preternatural gift which is freedom from the triple concupiscence. (CCC 377) Nonetheless, being free of concupiscence did not eliminate Adam’s freedom to sin. Adam had full knowledge of the fact that the only way he could continue the relationship between humanity and divinity was to live in free submission to his God.

 

[grannymh]

I know that the idea of death for innocent animals is difficult. It can be hard to grasp that natural physical laws contain death. So I will pause here before I continue with the next preternatural gift which is freedom from the triple concupiscence.

What is important to know is that being free of concupiscence did not eliminate Adam’s freedom to sin. Adam had full knowledge of the fact that the only way he could continue the relationship between humanity and divinity was to live in free submission to his God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition is pretty clear regarding the meaning of concupiscence.
**2514 **St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life. In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods.

**377 **The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

We can understand concupiscence, also known as the inclination to sin, because we are attracted to our own particular sins. But Adam is another story because how could he sin when he was free from concupiscence? Perhaps a better way to describe Adam is that he had inner harmony which the Catechism refers to as “original justice.” He also had rational intelligence and free will.

Adam’s intelligence plus his free will which seeks the good (God) were, in a sense, what kept Adam’s nature in harmony with God’s commandments. On the other hand, Adam was free to listen to Satan’s temptation. Like Eve, Adam also saw that the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. (Genesis 3: 6) The real temptation was that by disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit, Adam would become a god, powerful enough to know everything. What else is there to know besides good and evil? (Genesis 3: 1-7)

As long as Adam freely chose to live in submission to his Creator, his nature would be in harmony. When Adam departed from God via his sin of disobedience, his inner harmony suffered. Adam’s human nature, which would be transmitted to his descendants, became a wounded nature. Yet, it was not totally destroyed. Consequently, all of us are summoned to spiritual battle. (CCC 404-405)

Adam’s inner harmony free from concupiscence and his freedom from death are the two main preternatural gifts. It appears to me that other gifts which sometimes are ascribed to Adam and Eve are a natural part of life with God before the Fall. I hesitate to think of Adam and Eve as being perfect before the Fall because in any case, they would still have to make a definitive choice as to whether or not they would continue in God’s friendship. To me, perfection is when we are in the presence of the Beatific Vision forever and ever in love eternal.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition is pretty clear regarding the meaning of concupiscence.

**2514 **St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life. In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the ninth commandment forbids carnal concupiscence; the tenth forbids coveting another’s goods. . . On the other hand, Adam was free to listen to Satan’s temptation. Like Eve, Adam also saw that the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. (Genesis 3: 6) The real temptation was that by disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit, Adam would become a god, powerful enough to know everything. What else is there to know besides good and evil? (Genesis 3: 1-7)

As long as Adam freely chose to live in submission to his Creator, his nature would be in harmony. When Adam departed from God via his sin of disobedience, his inner harmony suffered. Adam’s human nature, which would be transmitted to his descendants, became a wounded nature. Yet, it was not totally destroyed. Consequently, all of us are summoned to spiritual battle. (CCC 404-405) . . .
​

Thank you so much for your post.
One thinks one has wrung all the meaning and truth out of Genesis, and something else pops up.
I had not made the connection between what Adama and Eve saw as good in the fruit and the reality of concupiscence.

the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom.

The allure of sin is the object’s goodness and beauty which have God as their source: a brand new red Ferrari is amazing, sex is great, and is not personal growth through increasing one’s knowledge, something we all strive for?

What turns good (beauty, love, knowledge) into evil (greed, lust, pride) is the two-fold act of seeking the object for itself in defiance of God’s will.

In choosing Satan over God, we transformed what was good into a poison for our soul. As a result of our ijured relationship with God, having become ignorant rather than wise, through the acceptance of Satan’s lie, we too easily seek the object, one in fact that is not meant for us, rather than God Himself.

Lots of food for thought here; thanks again.​